CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

                      IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
                          PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

                           CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

           ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida           
           ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL.,          

                 BEFORE:       The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

                 PLACE:        Pinellas County Judicial Building
                               545 First Avenue North
                               St. Petersburg, Florida

                 DATE:         February 16, 2001

                 TIME:         Commencing at 9:00 A.M.

                 REPORTED BY:  JACKIE L. OSTROM
                               Court Reporter

                            ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
                                                Pages 940 - 1063
                                                Volume VIII

                      ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
                                P.O. BOX 35
                            CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
                               (727) 443-0992



           The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

           911 Chestnut
           Clearwater, Florida

           3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
           Los Angeles, California  90010

           Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship

           2716 Herschel Street
           Jacksonville, Florida  32205

           5720 Central Avenue
           St. Petersburg, Florida  33707

           Attorneys for Robert Minton and
           Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.

.                                                                942

       1                        PROCEEDINGS

       2            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett,

       3       ready to call your next witness?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would at

       5       this point publish the video.

       6            THE COURT:  Right.  Okay.  Did you have

       7       a chance to see it?

       8            MR. POPE:  We did and I have not had an

       9       opportunity to cross-examine the witness,

      10       Ms. Brooks, who identified this video and I

      11       wish to do that.

      12            THE COURT:  Okay.  I allowed you to do

      13       that before and what we'll do is we'll put

      14       Ms. Brooks back on the stand and then I'll

      15       give Mr. Pope the opportunity it do that.

      16            MR. POPE:  And that was also the issue

      17       remaining which we'll take up in a minute.

      18            THE COURT:  The finances?

      19            MR. POPE:  The finances.

      20            THE COURT:  All right.  We'll get to

      21       that in a few minutes.  Take your time.  Take

      22       your time.

      23                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION

      24   BY MR. POPE:

      25        Q    Good morning, Ms. Brooks.

.                                                                943

       1        A    Good morning, Mr. Pope.

       2        Q    You identified this tape that Mr. Merrett

       3   wishes to play for us yesterday and I believe that you

       4   were present when the tape was made?

       5        A    Yes, I was.

       6        Q    And it was made at the Tampa airport?

       7        A    Yes.

       8        Q    And it was made in July of 2000, correct?

       9        A    Yes, that is correct.

      10        Q    Some five months at least before this

      11   injunction that's at issue was even issued, correct?

      12        A    Yes.  Well, actually wasn't there an

      13   injunction issued before?

      14        Q    There may have been an earlier injunction in

      15   place, although I believe that it expired in May and

      16   there was no injunction in place in July, as I recall?

      17        A    Okay, but I don't think the reason for

      18   showing the videotape was to show any violation of the

      19   injunction.  It was to show the kinds of things that

      20   we feel it's necessary to videotape and to document.

      21        Q    Okay.

      22        A    The interaction between critics of

      23   Scientology and Scientology operatives.

      24        Q    And this videotape is the videotape of the

      25   arrival in Tampa from Germany of a woman names Ursula

.                                                                944

       1   Caberta, correct?

       2        A    Yes.

       3        Q    That's U-R-S-U-L-A  C-A-B-E-R-T-A.

       4            THE COURT:  Thank you very much.  Thank

       5       you.

       6   BY MR. POPE:

       7        Q    And Ursula Caberta is a government official

       8   in Hamburg, Germany, isn't she?

       9        A    Yes, she's the head of the Scientology task

      10   force for the Hamburg government.

      11        Q    Known as the working group on Scientology?

      12        A    Yes, but a better translation into English

      13   would be task force.

      14        Q    And she is currently under investigation by

      15   the Hamburg government for accepting money from

      16   Mr. Minton, isn't she?

      17        A    I believe that investigation has concluded.

      18   As far as I know there was no -- the government found

      19   no evidence in any kind of wrongdoing there.

      20        Q    And what she does is she promotes the use of

      21   forms among German businesses whereby prospective

      22   employees have to swear that they don't follow any of

      23   the teachings of L. Rob Hubbard; is that right?

      24        A    Actually that's incorrect.

      25        Q    That's incorrect?

.                                                                945

       1        A    Yes.

       2        Q    Well, tell me what's correct?

       3        A    What's correct is that she has -- the

       4   Hamburg government has been approached by many

       5   businesses --

       6            MR. POPE:  Excuse me.

       7            THE COURT:  Just a second.  Just one

       8       second.  I'll be right back.

       9             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      10        place.)

      11            THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.  Go

      12       ahead.

      13            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, to the extent the

      14       witness is attempting to testify about what

      15       businesses have approached the Hamburg

      16       government and this sort of thing, it's way

      17       outside of her area of competence and it's

      18       hearsay.

      19            MS. BROOKS:  Well, but --

      20            MR. POPE:  Excuse me.

      21            THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Hold on.

      22       Let me play here.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  If I may.

      24            THE COURT:  Sir?

      25            MR. MERRETT:  If I may?

.                                                                946

       1            THE COURT:  Okay.  Let me hear from you.

       2            MR. MERRETT:  That problem with that

       3       objection is that Mr. Pope posited a

       4       statement with which he asked he to agree

       5       with was similarly outside her direct

       6       knowledge asking was it not true that

       7       Ms. Caberta was pushing this document.

       8            I believe she is entitled within the

       9        same scope of knowledge or non-knowledge to

      10        tell what the real story is.  I mean he's

      11        opened the door and now he's griping about

      12        it.

      13            THE COURT:  Now, wait a minute.  Whoa.

      14       There's two ways to handle this.  I simply

      15       say overruled, answer, or okay, ask her to be

      16       more direct and you're going to have cross.

      17            MR. MERRETT:  I guess my point in

      18       Mr. Pope actually is objecting to his own

      19       question.

      20            THE COURT:  Within -- I guess it could

      21       be interpreted that way.  What I'm going to

      22       do is this.  I'm going to allow her to answer

      23       to the best of her ability this question, but

      24       let's try and stay on point and if that

      25       doesn't satisfy everybody, you each have a

.                                                                947

       1       chance to get back into it.

       2            MR. POPE:  Okay.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  All right.

       4            THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.

       5            MS. BROOKS:  What I was trying to

       6       clarify, Mr. Pope, is that you are saying she

       7       is promoting this thing and I'm just trying

       8       to clarify for you that it's not a matter

       9       that she is promoting the signing of this

      10       declaration.  In fact what's happened is that

      11       businesses have a approached the Hamburg

      12       government because they are been concerned

      13       about Scientology front groups, basically

      14       management consulting firms, who go in to

      15       companies and do not reveal that they are

      16       actually there to promote the Hubbard

      17       technology and then they get into the company

      18       and it's only later that the company

      19       discovers that this is what they're been

      20       doing and they've found it to be very

      21       detrimental so they approached the government

      22       and asked for the government to some up with

      23       a way that the companies can legally and

      24       legitimately ascertain at the outset whether

      25       or not this consulting firm is planning to

.                                                                948

       1       indoctrinate its employees into Hubbard

       2       technology and it's simply a matter of full

       3       disclosure.

       4            It's not a matter of any kind of -- it's

       5        really not a matter of anything but full

       6        disclosure and it's something that the

       7        businesses have requested.  It's not

       8        something that the government is pushing at

       9        all.

      10            THE COURT:  Now, let me ask you

      11       something.  When you're talking about the

      12       Hamburg government, Hamburg is a city.

      13            MS. BROOKS:  It's a state.

      14            MR. POPE:  A city, state, Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Well, all right.  That's

      16       what I wanted to -- you're not trying to say

      17       Hamburg encompasses all of Germany?

      18            MS. BROOKS:  No, no, no, just the State

      19       of Hamburg.  It's a task force of the Hamburg

      20       government, not of the Federal Republic of

      21       Germany.

      22            THE COURT:  I see.  Okay.  Then you said

      23       something else.  You said Hubbard technology.

      24            MS. BROOKS:  Yes.

      25            THE COURT:  Is it Hubbard technology or

.                                                                949

       1       Hubbard philosophy.

       2            MS. BROOKS:  No, it's the Hubbard

       3       business technology.  Basically what happens,

       4       Your Honor, is that a management consulting

       5       group will go into a business and they will

       6       promote the Hubbard management technology in

       7       that business.

       8            The company will then begin to adopt

       9        some of these Hubbard business practices

      10        without realizing that it's part of the

      11        overall Scientology technology and in the

      12        sense that -- then, what will happen is once

      13        they started to use the business technology

      14        of Hubbard they will then be urged to start

      15        going to the Church of Scientology and start

      16        getting other services that are beyond the

      17        Hubbard business technology and this is what

      18        the business have been concerned about is

      19        that they feel that it's in a certain way

      20        well, really fraudulent because the business

      21        consulting firm is saying that it's only

      22        there to help the business practice but in

      23        fact what it later turns out is that they're

      24        there to sort of get a wedge in by the

      25        business practice and then really what their

.                                                                950

       1        intention is, is to get these people to

       2        become full blown Scientologists and this

       3        has caused problems for some the these

       4        businesses and so they have asked the

       5        government to give them a way in which they

       6        can ascertain if the people that are coming

       7        in with their business seminars are coming

       8        in with Hubbard technology or not.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, there have been

      10       United Congressional hearings through on

      11       religious supression in Germany and stuff by

      12       congressional committees and --

      13            MS. BROOKS:  As a matter of fact I've

      14       sat in on that hearing, Your Honor, and there

      15       was quite a bit of incorrect information that

      16       was given during that hearing because as far

      17       as Germany is concerned they do not recognize

      18       Scientology as a religion.  In Germany

      19       Scientology is classified as an extremist

      20       political movement.

      21            THE COURT:  That's all of the country

      22       now, not just Hamburg?

      23            MS. BROOKS:  Yes, but also including

      24       Hamburg, so, you know, it's -- what's

      25       happened in with a number of the

.                                                                951

       1       congressional -- members of this committee,

       2       the House International Relations Committee

       3       is that they have been misinformed basically.

       4            In other words, it's not really fair for

       5        the U.S. government to condemn Germany or

       6        any other country in Europe for their stand

       7        on Scientology when that country has not

       8        recognized Scientology as a religion and,

       9        you know, in 1993 the IRS granted

      10        Scientology its tax exception and since that

      11        time the United States government has dealt

      12        with Scientology as a religion because it

      13        got its tax exception as a religion, but up

      14        until that time the U.S. government was

      15        dealing with Scientology in much the same

      16        way that the European countries are dealing

      17        with Scientology now and in fact a lot of

      18        information has come out about some of the

      19        people, some of the Scientologists who have

      20        claimed religious discrimination in Germany

      21        for example it has turned out upon further

      22        investigation that they were -- that it was

      23        not a matter of their being discriminated

      24        against because of their religion.

      25            It was a matter of they're having legal

.                                                                952

       1        difficulties or other kinds of problems and

       2        it really didn't have anything to with

       3        Germany discriminating against them as a

       4        Scientologist because of their religion.

       5            THE COURT:  When you say that the

       6       Congressional International Relation

       7       Committees was given disinformation, has

       8       anything been done to get more information to

       9       that committee?

      10            MS. BROOKS:  Yes.  As a matter of fact

      11       at the Lisa McPherson Trust one of the things

      12       that we're working on right now is putting

      13       together a packet of information so that they

      14       can get the correct information.

      15            We've, you know -- I felt when was I

      16        there that it was not enough for me to give

      17        them my opinion or for me to sort of act as

      18        a communicator for the Germany government.

      19        I wanted to take the time to gather enough

      20        documentation of our own that when I

      21        presented the package to our congressmen

      22        they would see that the kinds of situations

      23        that Germany is concerned about is also

      24        happening in the United States with their

      25        own constituency and that's taken me a

.                                                                953

       1        little bit of time, but we now enough

       2        information that we can do that.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Pope.

       4   BY MR. POPE:

       5        Q    All right.  Ms. Brooks, you do recognize

       6   that courts in Germany have recognized Scientology as

       7   a religion; you understand that?

       8        A    I don't believe that's the case.

       9        Q    You don't think so, all right.  And you do

      10   understand that in Germany the government levies a

      11   church tax on everybody in the country which is sent

      12   to the church of your choice which is usually Catholic

      13   or Protestant, which makes that country's relationship

      14   between church and state substantially different from

      15   the United States?

      16        A    Yes, it's very different there than it is

      17   here.

      18        Q    In fact the state meddles quite a bit more

      19   in religious matters in Germany than it does in United

      20   States because we have the protection of the First

      21   Amendment, correct?

      22        A    That's incorrect, sir.

      23        Q    That's wrong, is it?

      24        A    It's wrong to characterize it as meddling,

      25   because the German government has it own constitution.

.                                                                954

       1   Because of its experience with Nazism in the thirties

       2   and forties they have an office for the protection of

       3   the constitution in that country which our country

       4   does not and they deal with extremist political

       5   movements in a much more, I guess I would say

       6   concerned way, than we do in the United States because

       7   of their experience.

       8        Q    People don't -- people in Germany aren't the

       9   beneficiaries of the United States Constitution Bill

      10   of Rights, are they?

      11        A    No, they're the beneficiaries of the German

      12   government's office for the protection of the

      13   constitution.

      14        Q    All right?

      15        A    Mr. Pope, and the other thing that I think

      16   you should realize is that there was a lawsuit filed

      17   about the Hubbard Declaration in Hamburg and the court

      18   in Hamburg threw the lawsuit out and found that the

      19   Hubbard Declaration was in fact constitutional and was

      20   in fact a legal document, so one of the problems that

      21   we have is the difference between the government in

      22   the United States and the government in Germany and as

      23   I was telling Judge Penick, it's a little unfair for

      24   you to characterize what German government is doing in

      25   terms of the United States because the German

.                                                                955

       1   government has its own set of laws and its own

       2   constitution.

       3        Q    And I suppose you would feel the same way

       4   about the Soviet Union, we shouldn't have criticized

       5   the way they ran their country back then either, huh?

       6            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object.

       7            MS. BROOKS:  I beg your pardon?

       8            MR. MERRETT:  -- and argumentative.

       9            MR. POPE:  I'll withdraw the question,

      10       Your Honor.

      11            MS. BROOKS:  I don't really think that's

      12       appropriate.

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    Let me ask you if will concede this, that

      15   the United States Trade Commission and the United

      16   States State Department both condemn discrimination

      17   practices in Germany against Scientologist?  That's

      18   true, isn't it?

      19        A    I believe there is a little bit more to that

      20   than that.

      21        Q    But is that true?  Is that true, basically

      22   is that essentially true what I just asked you?

      23        A    They have issued statements condemning it,

      24   however I'd like to add a little bit of information to

      25   clarify that for you.

.                                                                956

       1        Q    Go right ahead.

       2        A    Well, basically what happened and this was

       3   reported in several media publications and it was also

       4   talked about on Meet the Press, by Sandy Burger, the

       5   President Clinton's Security Advisor, but basically

       6   what happened was President Clinton made a deal with

       7   John Travolta, that --

       8            MR. POPE:  Object.  Your Honor --

       9            THE COURT:  Let her answer.  Let her

      10       answer.

      11            MR. POPE:  All right.

      12            THE COURT:  I admit we're out here a

      13       ways, but let's just go ahead.

      14            MS. BROOKS:  But this is really what

      15       happened.

      16            THE COURT:  Okay.  I said you can

      17       answer.

      18            MS. BROOKS:  It was reported in the

      19       media.

      20            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, she's testifying

      21       from what has appeared in a newspaper, you

      22       know.

      23            THE COURT:  Well, I'll give that the

      24       credibility I feel it deserves.

      25            MR. POPE:  As long as the court

.                                                                957

       1       recognizes the incompetency of the basic

       2       proposition.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Well, I don't know --

       4       look, let's just let her testify and I'll see

       5       where it came from and if it's from the media

       6       we'll just work on it, okay.

       7            MS. BROOKS:  Your Honor, Sandy Burger,

       8       the Security Advisor with also discuss this

       9       issue.

      10            THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.  I said you

      11       may answer.

      12            MS. BROOKS:  Okay.  Basically, John

      13       Travolta was going to play the Clinton

      14       character in Primary Colors and Clinton told

      15       John Travolta that if he would characterize

      16       him in a positive way in that movie, Clinton

      17       would have his security advisor deal with the

      18       issues that John Travolta was concerned,

      19       which was the way Scientology was being

      20       treated in Germany and for that reason

      21       Clinton assigned Sandy Berger to issue this

      22       condemnation and Sandy Berger actually

      23       discussed this on television and I'm sure you

      24       would be able to get a transcript of that TV

      25       show if you would be interested in doing so,

.                                                                958

       1       so, you know, there is a little bit of --

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, I wonder if

       3       Ms. Kobrin and Mr. Shaw could keep their

       4       voices down a little here so I can hear what

       5       the witness is saying.

       6            THE COURT:  Okay.  Please, folks, let's

       7       do this.  Maybe -- what I'm pausing to think

       8       is to how I can help Mr. Pope here with this

       9       note passing and there is kind of gap here.

      10       Maybe if you move back a little closer.

      11            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I'm getting ready

      12       to move off this subject.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay, because I was just

      14       going to say let's go back and see how we got

      15       over here this it corridor.

      16            The lady came from Germany and she

      17        worked for the Hamburg Government and she

      18        was promoting these forms.

      19            MS. BROOKS:  No, sir.

      20            THE COURT:  Scratch that.  I'm sorry.

      21       There was a question about some forms, so can

      22       we get back to that?

      23            MR. POPE:  Yes, I'll be happy to direct

      24       us back to where we were.

      25            THE COURT:  I have one more question.

.                                                                959

       1            MR. POPE:  Okay.

       2            THE COURT:  Why was the French

       3       government here yesterday, or excuse me, the

       4       French media?  I mean is France into this

       5       thing like Germany?

       6            MS. BROOKS:  It's a major issue in

       7       France.

       8            THE COURT:  It is also?

       9            MS. BROOKS:  It's a major issue in

      10       France.  They are very, very concerned about

      11       the Scientology issue in France.

      12            THE COURT:  Any other European

      13       countries?

      14            MS. BROOKS:  Yes, Belgium is very

      15       concerned about it, Austria is very concerned

      16       about it, England, Italy, Greece.

      17            THE COURT:  Italy?

      18            MS. BROOKS:  Yes.  Greece has

      19       actually --

      20            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Let's go

      21       back.  They're making end roads in Italy?

      22            MS. BROOKS:  Oh, yeah.  The Italian

      23       courts actually arrested I think it was close

      24       to 200 Scientologists a couple years ago for

      25       fraud and now that whole issue is still an

.                                                                960

       1       issue in the courts in Italy.

       2            In Greece they banned Scientology

       3        because they discovered that Scientologists

       4        had somehow or another come into possession

       5        of top secret government documents and they

       6        were very concerned that th same thing that

       7        happened in the United States in the late,

       8        in the seventies that led to criminal

       9        indictments and convictions was happening in

      10        Greece where Scientology operatives were

      11        infiltrating government offices and stealing

      12        documents, so it is a major issue, Your

      13        Honor.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.

      15            MS. BROOKS:  It's not just --

      16            THE COURT:  All right.

      17            MS. BROOKS:  And, you know, the

      18       governments in the European countries are

      19       dealing with it in a very much more serious

      20       way.  They see it as a much more serious

      21       threat than the courts in the United States

      22       see it and Scientology is very, very,

      23       very -- is trying very, very hard to

      24       characterize the concern in Europe as

      25       religious discrimination and it's very much

.                                                                961

       1       not the case.

       2            It's very much not the case.  It is not

       3        religious discrimination in Europe.

       4            THE COURT:  Let me ask you this.  There

       5       is the Lisa McPherson Trust and you're saying

       6       that you all are trying to put forth

       7       information about Scientology.

       8            MS. BROOKS:  Well --

       9            THE COURT:  Now, wait a minute.  Just

      10       listen to me.  Are you the only organization

      11       in the United States or are you the central

      12       focus group or how would you classify the

      13       Trust in your organization in this cause?

      14            MS. BROOKS:  Your Honor, we are the only

      15       organization in the United States that is --

      16       there are individuals throughout the United

      17       States, but we are the only organization that

      18       is actually established to help people have

      19       been harmed by Scientology.  We have five to

      20       ten people week, sometimes more than that,

      21       calling us, e-mailing us, I mean from all

      22       over the world, not just in the United

      23       states, people who have been lost all their

      24       money to Scientology, people who have lost

      25       their loved ones to Scientology, people who

.                                                                962

       1       are being harassed by Scientology, I mean

       2       it's really an almost overwhelming situation

       3       that we're trying to deal with.  The most --

       4       the thing that we're organized to do more

       5       than anything else is to help people who are,

       6       well, as Mr. Pope read into the record

       7       yesterday, our purpose is to help people who

       8       have been abused or deceived by Scientology

       9       and that's what we spend our time doing.

      10       That's what we spend our time doing.

      11            THE COURT:  Well, how do you help

      12       people?

      13            MS. BROOKS:  Well, we have them relate

      14       their, you know, put their information in

      15       affidavit form, you know, so that it's

      16       legitimate testimony and we have them -- we

      17       help them and kind of serve as clearing house

      18       for people also where we educate them about

      19       the different federal and state agencies that

      20       there are available in the United States to

      21       help with whatever particular kinds of

      22       situations they've encountered.

      23            If they've been defrauded, you know, we

      24        direct them to the correct federal and state

      25        agencies that would deal with those kinds of

.                                                                963

       1        issues.

       2            If it's a matter of violation of child

       3        labor laws or some sort the of child abuse,

       4        then we direct them to the correct agency

       5        that are concerned with those kinds of

       6        situations.

       7            If it's a medical situation where

       8        someone has been ordered off their

       9        medication for a particular illness or if

      10        they have been ordered to stop taking

      11        prescribed psychiatric medication as a

      12        condition of employment, for example, we

      13        refer them to the correct agencies of the

      14        United States government that would be

      15        concerned with those kind of issues, but

      16        basically what we're doing which has really

      17        never been done before is we're helping

      18        people to become educated about what parts

      19        of our government and what laws in our

      20        country apply to the kinds of harm that

      21        people are being subjected to by this

      22        organization.  And, Your Honor, I have to

      23        tell you that it has nothing to do with the

      24        beliefs of Scientology.

      25            We make it very, very clear to people

.                                                                964

       1        who call us that the only thing we're

       2        concerned with is violations of the law and

       3        those are the only things that we deal with.

       4            THE COURT:  Violations of the law?

       5            MS. BROOKS:  Yes.

       6            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you say you're

       7       helping people and it sounds like you are

       8       sort of Don Quixote against all the windmills

       9       and do you type -- what type staff, what type

      10       help can you give?  You know, are you doing

      11       this all by yourself?

      12            MS. BROOKS:  Well, we have a staff of

      13       about eight people and we work really long

      14       hours and, you know, we're trying to make

      15       contact with people in other countries that

      16       are also helping these people so that we can

      17       get more help for ourselves for what we're

      18       trying to do, but it's really -- it's really

      19       difficult work.

      20            We try to help the people that are

      21        coming to us and are willing to challenge

      22        some of their practices that people wouldn't

      23        be being hurt the way that they are being

      24        hurt by them and we've tried very hard to

      25        get Scientology to listen to us.

.                                                                965

       1            We've tried to have meetings with -- we

       2        have had meetings with them.  We've tried to

       3        appeal to them to stop these things.  And

       4        instead of being willing to consider the

       5        possibility that they be doing something

       6        wrong, they respond by attacking us and

       7        that's the truth.

       8            I'm not saying that we're prefect, Your

       9        Honor.  We're not angels, you know.

      10        Certainly, we've all made mistakes and we've

      11        done things wrong, but that doesn't change

      12        the fact that there's things that need to be

      13        changed about Scientology and that's what

      14        we're trying to bring about.

      15            THE COURT:  So you're trying to be heard

      16       in the streets and also work in the offices

      17       and behind the scenes?

      18            MS. BROOKS:  Yes, sir.

      19            THE COURT:  And you say you're putting

      20       out literature and information other than

      21       protests and things like that, signs, I mean,

      22       do you have --

      23            MS. BROOKS:  Just protest stuff.

      24            THE COURT:  Do you have a wealth of

      25       materials out there?

.                                                                966

       1            MS. BROOKS:  Yes, Your Honor, we do, and

       2       really, Your Honor, you need to understand

       3       that the protesting and the picketing is --

       4       it isn't even part of what the Lisa McPherson

       5       Trust does.  It's really true what these guys

       6       were telling you yesterday.

       7            These guys have been protesting

       8        Scientology long before there was such a

       9        thing as the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      10            You know, some of the people that are

      11        part of the Lisa McPherson Trust also feel

      12        that protesting and picketing is a valid

      13        form of making their own feelings known

      14        about Scientology, but, I mean, you know, I

      15        don't have time to do that.

      16            You know, most of the people at the Lisa

      17        McPherson Trust don't picket.  That's not

      18        what we're there to do.  And really we've

      19        tried to make it clear that most of the

      20        people that go and picket are not part of

      21        the Lisa McPherson Trust, they're not staff

      22        of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and people who

      23        are employed by the Lisa McPherson Trust

      24        never do that on their business hours.  It's

      25        not part of anybody's job at the Lisa

.                                                                967

       1        McPherson Trust to picket.

       2            You know, some of the people will tell

       3        you that I really think that sometimes the

       4        picketing detracts from the work that we're

       5        trying to do because it makes you and other

       6        people think that that's our work and it's

       7        not.  You know, it's just that picketing is

       8        a valid form of expression in this country

       9        and people have a right to do it.  You know

      10        what I'm saying?  Scientology doesn't want

      11        people to be able to criticize them.  They

      12        don't like to be criticized.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Pope.

      14   BY MR. POPE:

      15        Q    Let's get back to the airport in July of

      16   2000, the arrival of Ms. Caberta.  What your videotape

      17   shows is that a group of mostly German Scientologists

      18   protesting her arrival, correct?

      19        A    No, Mr. Pope.

      20        Q    What does it show then?

      21        A    I mean it has about three or four German

      22   Scientologists, but mostly it's Clearwater

      23   Scientologists out there organized by the Office of

      24   Special Affairs, Ben Shaw who's sitting there with you

      25   and others of the Office of Special Affairs people

.                                                                968

       1   were there at the airport directing these people where

       2   to go, what to do and, you know, you'll see in the

       3   video that as soon as Ms. Caberta emerged from the --

       4   what do you call that thing when you get off the plane

       5   and you walk through that tunnel, you know whatever,

       6   into the terminal, the first person you'll see is

       7   screaming Nazi, Nazi at Ms. Caberta is not a German

       8   Scientologists.  He's an American name Ian Shelton

       9   whose been in Scientology since I was there and he's

      10   been doing OSA volunteer work for many, many years.

      11             You know, this was a calculated effort to

      12   embarrass Ms. Caberta to harass and intimidate her.

      13   It had nothing to do with German Scientologists

      14   venting their sincere feelings.

      15             You know, these people, these German

      16   Scientologists also came and harassed us at

      17   Ms. Caberta's hotel, laughing at us, baiting us,

      18   heckling us, interrupting us at dinner, coming over to

      19   our dinner table saying you're a Nazi, you're a Nazi.

      20   Why don't you leave our country.  You're a Nazi,

      21   You're a Nazi.  You know, come on.

      22        Q    These folks who greeted Ms. Caberta were not

      23   venting their sincere feelings; is that what you're

      24   saying?

      25        A    The reason that I'm telling you that is

.                                                                969

       1   because several of them were laughing at me make,

       2   making a mockery of me and our work and making it very

       3   clear that their intention was to harass her and it is

       4   seemed very clear to me from the OSA people that were

       5   at the airport that it was being directed by the

       6   Office of Special Affairs.

       7        Q    You do you agree that they were exercising

       8   that same right of free speech this you contend you're

       9   entitled to exercise on the streets of Clearwater?

      10        A    Yes, but I think that they were doing it in

      11   an extremely harassing way and I think the videotape

      12   shows that.

      13        Q    Okay.

      14        A    You know, nobody arrested them, Mr. Pope.

      15            MR. POPE:  I have no further questions

      16       of this issue, Your Honor.  Let me renew

      17       based upon this somewhat rambling discourse

      18       we've had about church and state in Germany,

      19       back to the main issue we have a tape here

      20       that was recorded five months before this

      21       court's injunction that doesn't prove or

      22       disprove any aspect of the central question

      23       before the court and that is did the named

      24       defendants violate your injunction or not?

      25       That's all that's before you today.

.                                                                970

       1            We got way far field on this and this

       2        tape doesn't prove or disprove any of that

       3        and I would object to its publication, Your

       4        Honor, and I don't know if you want to hear

       5        from Mr. Merrett on that now?

       6            THE COURT:  Yeah.

       7            MR. POPE:  And deal with the financial

       8       thing later.

       9            THE COURT:  Certainly.  Mr. Merrett.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, the witness --

      11            THE COURT:  Did you want to ask any

      12       questions first?

      13            MR. MERRETT:  No, sir.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.

      15            MR. MERRETT:  And with respect to

      16       Mr. Pope's objections, our walk through the

      17       lilies of the valleys was occasioned by his

      18       cross-examination.  The videotape was offered

      19       to show what it is that the LMT videotapes.

      20       In other words what sort of things as opposed

      21       to videotaping people getting in and out of

      22       their cars and people eating lunch and things

      23       like that.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  And Mr. Howie, sir.

      25            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I join in his

.                                                                971

       1       position.  After all, it was Mr. Pope who

       2       raised the issue, well, don't you take

       3       surveillance photos too and by way of her

       4       explanation is to the use of the video camera

       5       by Lisa McPherson Trust and those associated

       6       with them, this is a legitimate response to

       7       his own cross-examination.

       8            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, what possible

       9       issue is prove or disproved by what sorts of

      10       things that they videotape?  That doesn't go

      11       to any issue that is currently before this

      12       court.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  If I may, the problem is

      14       the issue came up through Mr. Pope's

      15       examination of this witness.

      16            THE COURT:  Let's show the video.

      17       Gentlemen, in America, the press actually

      18       stays within that area.  I can't allow you to

      19       roam around the courtroom.  That's the way we

      20       have it in our policies.

      21            What we can do is we're going to turn

      22        this around and I'll ask that you turn, you

      23        may step down, have a seat out there on the

      24        bench but I think that where you are at you

      25        will be able to see it.  We'll come to you

.                                                                972

       1        rather than you come to us.  Okay.  I'll

       2        step down also.

       3             (Whereupon, the videotape was played.)

       4            MR. MERRETT:  That's Al Butler?

       5            MS. BROOKS:  That's Al Butler.

       6            THE COURT:  That's who?

       7            MS. BROOKS:  His name is Al Butler.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.

       9             (Whereupon, videotape was played.)

      10            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Wait a

      11       minute.  Wait a minute.

      12            MS. BROOKS:  Your Honor, This is another

      13       camera at the same scene.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  Wait a minute.

      15       Wait a minute.  Hold it.  She is on the

      16       stand.  I don't know what's going on here,

      17       you get back.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, so the court

      19       is aware, he's another one of her attorneys.

      20            THE COURT:  I don't know him, he hasn't

      21       been introduced.  There's a new white rose

      22       suddenly here, she's on the witness stand and

      23       I don't allow you to talk to her when she's

      24       on the witness stand.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  I understand, Your Honor.

.                                                                973

       1            THE COURT:  Let's take a break.  Bring

       2       him in my chambers.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       4            THE COURT:  You get up on the witness

       5       stand.

       6             (Thereupon, the following proceedings were

       7        had in the Judge's chambers:)

       8            THE COURT:  All right.  What's going on?

       9            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, this is --

      10            THE COURT:  Has he filed a notice of

      11       appearance or anything?

      12            MR. MERRETT:  He is a member of the Bars

      13       of France and Italy, Jean-Michel and I've

      14       forgotten his last name.

      15            MR. PESENTI:  Pesenti.

      16            THE COURT:  Okay, and I guess it's

      17       somebody I don't know anything about and I

      18       suddenly have witness who I allow to get off

      19       the stand the help with a video and then I

      20       see somebody passing notes and whispering to

      21       her and everything else, and quite frankly,

      22       explain to me what's going on before I put

      23       all of her testimony in the hopper.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  I understand.

      25            THE COURT:  Garbage can.

.                                                                974

       1            MR. MERRETT:  If he can, his --

       2       obviously English is not his first language

       3       or even his third language.  If you can

       4       explain to the court what you were

       5       communicating with Ms. Brooks about.

       6            MR. PESENTI:  I just write something for

       7       her, this is Stacy Brooks.  I am French Stacy

       8       Brooks' attorney, Mr. President.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  And you're who he's

      11       addressing as Mr. President, because that's

      12       what the judge is called in France.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.

      14            MR. POPE:  Perhaps we should see what

      15       he's written to her.

      16            THE COURT:  Yeah.

      17            MR. PESENTI:  It was nothing --

      18            THE COURT:  Yeah, let's put it in the

      19       record.

      20            MR. MERRETT:  If I may, Your Honor --

      21            THE COURT:  Put it in the record.

      22            MR. MERRETT:  If I may, Your Honor, I

      23       don't have a problem with that.

      24            MR. PESENTI:  Nothing.  I don't write

      25       nothing about --

.                                                                975

       1            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  I didn't

       2       tell you it's you're turn.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  The inside of that, Your

       4       Honor, what you're reading now is a note that

       5       had previously given to me that was on the

       6       table.

       7            THE COURT:  Here's the problem where we

       8       got off track here is he wasn't introduced or

       9       anything else.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  I understand.

      11            THE COURT:  And I didn't know whether,

      12       you know, it's a new face in the crowd and

      13       this is something that we've been watching

      14       real close with security and everything and

      15       my bailiffs need to know when there is a new

      16       white rose because nobody else and if you

      17       keep passing these things around and suddenly

      18       we've got new faces and new players, I can't

      19       control security and it becomes a major issue

      20       and, you know, we certainly have laws

      21       regarding a witness and all and I've been a

      22       little lax so they could go back and

      23       everybody could see that video, but I'm going

      24       to have to put a chair somewhere where nobody

      25       can get to anybody that's a witness.  We know

.                                                                976

       1       that this is just absolutely and here,

       2       Mr. Pope, you can see this.  Just the

       3       outside.

       4            The inside they say was from attorney to

       5        attorney and I can't tell what the inside

       6        said anyway, but the point being we've got

       7        to be careful here.  I'm trying to do this

       8        the best I can, but don't slip in somebody

       9        new on me and then not expect to put your

      10        case in severe jeopardy.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Had I realized he was

      12       coming up, Judge, I would have introduced

      13       him.  So far he's only come up to be to offer

      14       suggestions and assistance and I didn't know

      15       he was up there.

      16            THE COURT:  Okay.

      17            MR. MERRETT:  I'm assuming they do

      18       things differently in France.

      19            THE COURT:  Yeah, but I can't allow it

      20       here so we've got to get this straightened

      21       out.  Now, again. I want a business card and

      22       everything for the record.  Do we have a

      23       business card?

      24            MR. MERRETT:  He said he has one out in

      25       his sack.

.                                                                977

       1            THE COURT:  Out in the courtroom?

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Yes.

       3            THE COURT:  Just give to him when we go

       4       back and hand it to the bailiff so it goes

       5       into the record.

       6            Now, is he going to be part of the team?

       7        I mean is he --

       8            MR. MERRETT:  No, sir, he's observing to

       9       simply get a feel for the witnesses.

      10            THE COURT:  I see.  I was going to say I

      11       don't know whether to allow him up at the

      12       table, but if he's not an active

      13       representative then, I don't want him

      14       sitting -- remember we've got to keep the way

      15       we're going so that my security, you know,

      16       there are people that don't like you sides

      17       out there and I don't want somebody slipping

      18       up to the table and something go boom.

      19            MR. MERRETT:  I understand.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.  Then the next thing I

      21       got to be sure is that I've got a pristine

      22       witness.  I don't want somebody putting words

      23       in a witness' mouth while there is all this

      24       going on.  Now, Mr. Pope, you may.

      25            MR. POPE:  I had a question about it

.                                                                978

       1       says, In Germany the something is that

       2       Scientologists -- looks like PB.  What is

       3       that?  What does that say?  In Germany the --

       4            MR. PESENTI:  That is the question, the

       5       problem.

       6            MR. POPE:  In Germany, the problem?

       7            MR. PESENTI:  Yeah, problem.

       8            MR. POPE:  The problem is that

       9       Scientology?

      10            MR. PESENTI:  I'm sorry, I don't speak

      11       very well, Your Honor.

      12            THE COURT:  It's all right.

      13            MR. POPE:  In Germany the problem in

      14       that Scientologist?

      15            MR. PESENTI:  No, no, just the beginning

      16       of that I want to write.

      17            MR. POPE:  What does the word PB mean?

      18            MR. PESENTI:  It's a contraction of

      19       problem.

      20            MR. POPE:  Problem, okay.

      21            MR. PESENTI:  Problem.

      22            MR. POPE:  Okay, so what you meant to

      23       say was in Germany the problem is that

      24       Scientologist?

      25            MR. PESENTI:  No.

.                                                                979

       1            MR. POPE:  What does this mean?

       2            MR. MERRETT:  I believe what he's

       3       telling you is that's only a portion.  That's

       4       only the beginning of what he was going to

       5       write.  That's not a complete statement.

       6            MR. POPE:  I see.  I see.

       7            MR. MERRETT:  So it's not referring to a

       8       specific Scientologist.  That refers to a

       9       problem.

      10            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's do this.

      11       Please, both Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett,

      12       you've got to introduce people.  Anything in

      13       front of the rail is going to be strictly

      14       controlled by me and my bailiffs.

      15            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      16            THE COURT:  I will still allow the

      17       people to talk to their attorneys to come up

      18       and everything else.  I've got to be able to

      19       allow that, but you see, this quite frankly

      20       is scary because this is just what my

      21       bailiffs and my security people have been

      22       worried about, that somebody we don't know, a

      23       ringer, suddenly gets up to the table.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      25            THE COURT:  Now, I'm going to keep

.                                                                980

       1       Ms. Brooks on the stand and I want you all to

       2       make it clear to your people ad everybody

       3       else, I want both Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton

       4       and also Mr. Pope and the attorneys on that

       5       side, we're getting down near the end here

       6       but let's don't get careless before something

       7       happens.

       8            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       9            THE COURT:  I'm concerned for everybody.

      10       I don't want anything to happen on my watch.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      12            THE COURT:  Please.  Thank you all.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, may I mention

      14       something off the record?

      15            THE COURT:  Sure.

      16             (Discussion off the record.)

      17             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      18        which the proceedings continued.)

      19            THE COURT:  All right, let's see about

      20       this.  Can we go back and pick up where we

      21       left off.  You were about to do something and

      22       I'll allow her to go back down there and we

      23       can proceed, but I've got to be -- this has

      24       got to be controlled.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

.                                                                981

       1            THE COURT:  And this has got to be

       2       controlled here, too.

       3            MR. POPE:  We're going to try to keep it

       4       under control.  I have learned, Your Honor,

       5       that there was one other episode that I

       6       didn't personally observe, of contact between

       7       Ms. Bennett and this witness during the

       8       videotape during which Ms. Bennett either

       9       passed a note or passed some information

      10       orally to Ms. Brooks while she was sitting

      11       out here.  Now, I personally didn't see it

      12       but this young lady apparently did.

      13            THE COURT:  Let me -- Ms. Brooks, let me

      14       ask you something.  When we sat down to view

      15       that video, the statement that you put on the

      16       record or any answers that you might have

      17       give to anything Mr. Merrett said, and I

      18       remind you, you're under oath here today,

      19       were those answers or statements freely and

      20       voluntarily made on your part?

      21            MS. BROOKS:  Yes, Your Honor.

      22            THE COURT:  Did anybody instruct you or

      23       tell you exactly how to answer or what

      24       statements to put on the record?

      25            MS. BROOKS:  No, sir, not at all.

.                                                                982

       1            THE COURT:  All right.  You ready to

       2       pick it back up?

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Actually, Your Honor, I

       4       didn't realize that that second view of those

       5       events was on the tape and I have no

       6       particular need for the court to see the same

       7       thing.

       8            THE COURT:  You just want to stop there?

       9            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      10            THE COURT:  You just want to make the

      11       point that the Scientologists picket also.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  Well, and actually the

      13       point was that these are the kinds of things

      14       that we videotape.

      15            THE COURT:  I see.  Okay.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  And I don't have any other

      17       questions.

      18            THE COURT:  All right, we'll stop there.

      19       All right.  Now that is this in evidence?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Actually, it wasn't, Your

      21       Honor, and you can leave it as a

      22       demonstrative aid the court wants it --

      23            THE COURT:  Evidence.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      25            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I would like to

.                                                                983

       1       know what Ms. Bennett passed information

       2       while she was on the stand?

       3            THE COURT:  Passed on what?

       4            MR. POPE:  Ms. Bennett.

       5            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.  Time out.  You're

       6       absolutely right.  You have a right to ask

       7       questions within what I opened up and then

       8       Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie can ask questions.

       9            Sir, you may ask questions.

      10   BY MR. POPE:

      11        Q    Ms. Brooks, while you were sitting out

      12   there, didn't Ms. Bennett come up and inform you of

      13   something.

      14        A    She did actually.

      15        Q    What dis she tell you?

      16        A    She said those people that are on the video

      17   are all Scientologists.

      18        Q    And then you turned around and testified to

      19   that, right?

      20        A    Yes.

      21            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I think that two

      22       episodes like this at one time and I think

      23       her testimony ought to be stricken.

      24            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett, you want to ask

      25       any questions?

.                                                                984

       1   BY MR. MERRETT:

       2        Q    Did you already know that those were

       3   Scientologists?

       4        A    Yes.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  I don't have any other

       6       questions.

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie?

       8            MR. HOWIE:  No questions, Your Honor.

       9            THE COURT:  Now, let's go one step at a

      10       time.  Bear with me just a minute.  All

      11       right.  That tape is in evidence as Exhibit

      12       Number Nine for the Defendant LMT and I

      13       will -- in light of the fact that the only

      14       statements that Ms. Brooks made that somebody

      15       might have told her while she was sitting our

      16       there to make was that those are

      17       Scientologists, I'm not going to strike it

      18       because it was -- we already knew that they

      19       were going out to show Scientologists and

      20       everything else and if those had turned out

      21       to be Southern Baptists, I'd be surprised so

      22       I think we'll just press on.

      23            MR. POPE:  Yes, sir.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now this is in and

.                                                                985

       1       you were going to do that and he had that

       2       opportunity.  The next thing, Mr. Pope, is it

       3       issue of the finances.

       4            MR. POPE:  Yes.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.

       6            MR. POPE:  Let me make my argument and

       7       then depending on how you rule I either get

       8       to ask questions or I don't.

       9            THE COURT:  Yes, sir, I understand.

      10       Mr. Pope, sir.

      11            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I've given you

      12       the case or Purcell versus State, 735 So. 2d.

      13       579, Fourth District Court, June 1999.

      14            That case says that, and I'll quote from

      15        headnote three of the text, the right to

      16        expose an improper motive for the testimony

      17        of the witness especially as here, a

      18        critical State witness, is therefore an

      19        essential ingredient in the right to trial

      20        by jury.

      21            And then under headnote four, bias may

      22        be proved by animus or prejudice against the

      23        defendant and interest in the outcome of a

      24        case and any matter tending to show a

      25        motivation indicating that a witness may be

.                                                                986

       1        testifying untruthfully.

       2            Then this case quotes from Alfred versus

       3        State, a 1904 Florida Supreme Court case

       4        which says questions touching interest,

       5        motives, animus of the status of a witness

       6        to the suit are parties are not collateral

       7        or immaterial as to such matters, inquiry

       8        may be had and it is not within the

       9        discretion of the court to exclude it.

      10            The hostility of a witness towards a

      11        party against whom he is called may be

      12        proved by any competent evidence, either by

      13        cross-examination of the witness or by the

      14        testimony of other witnesses and that it is

      15        not necessary that the witness should be

      16        first examined as to his hostility before

      17        calling other witnesses.

      18            Let me give the summary of this law

      19        which appears in a Erhardt's Florida

      20        Evidence Treatise 2000 Edition, Section

      21        608.5 page 457:  Interest, motive and animus

      22        are never collateral matters of a

      23        cross-examination and are always proper.

      24            A witness' relation to a party, the

      25        personal obligations of a witness to a

.                                                                987

       1        party, the friendly or unfriendly feelings

       2        of a witness towards a party or the victim,

       3        the fact that a witness is being paid by a

       4        party to testify, the fact that a

       5        prosecution witness is under actual threat

       6        and criminal charges, a romantic involvement

       7        between the within and the party, the

       8        witness's membership in an organization

       9        which is relevant to demonstrate bias,

      10        prejudice or hostility toward a party,

      11        threats, made by a party to the witness, the

      12        financial state of a witness in the outcome

      13        of the case being litigated and the fact

      14        that a witness is employed by party all have

      15        been recognized by the Florida Courts as

      16        proper questions of cross-examination going

      17        to the interest and bias of the witness.

      18            Now, I want to know the extent of the

      19        financial entanglements between this witness

      20        and Mr. Minton and the others and we have

      21        gotten into detail on the other witnesses.

      22            It is crucial to the question of motive

      23        of testimony.  The showing of complete

      24        financial dependence which is what I think

      25        is going to come out of this is at the heart

.                                                                988

       1        of motive of her testimony and believe that

       2        we are entitled to ask these questions and

       3        the questions that I've already asked and

       4        receive answers to them.  Thank you.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett,

       6       sir.

       7            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, if this were

       8       being argued in vacuo, that argument might

       9       not verge on the asinine.  The fact is we're

      10       not in a vacuum and it is asinine.

      11            Ms. Brooks is the president and a

      12        representative of a corporation which is a

      13        party to the action.  Ms. Brooks is herself

      14        a former Scientologist, a disaffected former

      15        Scientologist and an activist against the

      16        abusive practices of Scientology.

      17            The information, if Mr. Pope asks each

      18        question that is listed in Professor

      19        Erhardt's treatise, it still wouldn't get

      20        the point of the information that he is

      21        pursuing now which is discover information

      22        that Scientology pursues in every piece of

      23        litigation that it has underway which is

      24        nickels and dimes from Bob Minton.  What are

      25        exact amounts of money that Bob Minton

.                                                                989

       1        spends.

       2            It is cumulative to the information

       3        which is already on the table and I will

       4        remind the court that in the event that

       5        Mr. Pope is permitted to explore issues of

       6        animus and bias, I will then be entitled to

       7        explore the entire minute basis for that

       8        interest and bias.

       9            The fact is, Your Honor, that the issue

      10        has been resolved by the evidence that is

      11        already in the case and it is purely abusive

      12        and harassing to allow Scientology to pursue

      13        these details that they have pursued across

      14        the country at great expense since it adds

      15        nothing to the court's determination.

      16            You already are fully aware of this

      17        witness' position with respect to

      18        Scientology.  Thank you.

      19            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      20            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I been listening

      21       as closely as I can to all of the testimony

      22       of Stacy Brooks in this case and I have to

      23       make this a observation.  When we talk about

      24       bias and prejudice we are talking about bias

      25       or prejudice against a party or in favor of a

.                                                                990

       1       party.  That's the whole foundation of the

       2       bias and prejudice approach.

       3            In all of her testimony -- well, that

       4        would mean that we either have to explore

       5        for bias or prejudice against the Church of

       6        Scientology as one party in this case or as

       7        it relates to any payments that may have

       8        been received from Mr. Minton her bias and

       9        prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton as a result

      10        of those payments.  And that is what they're

      11        trying to get auto.

      12            Well, what I find curious is in all the

      13        direct examination and all the

      14        cross-examination of Stacy Brooks as a

      15        witness at this hearing, not once has the

      16        petitioner extracted any information from

      17        her concerning the activities of Robert

      18        Minton as pertains to the five remaining

      19        allegations against Mr. Minton in the orders

      20        to show cause.

      21            This effort to show her bias and

      22        prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is totally

      23        irrelevant to any issue in this case even

      24        though they had a full shot at her in their

      25        cross-examination of her.

.                                                                991

       1            This is a situation where her bias or

       2        prejudice in favor of Mr. Minton is

       3        irrelevant because they haven't established

       4        any predicate for asking those kinds of

       5        questions.  So, in addition to every other

       6        argument that Mr. Merrett's made, I don't

       7        think that it's relevant that she has any

       8        particular bias or prejudice in favor of

       9        Mr. Minton.

      10            I would also point out that if we were

      11        to ask this witness each and every question

      12        that Mr. Pope has just posed by reading out

      13        of his book there that we would still not

      14        get to the issue of how much money was

      15        involved.

      16            We already know what her position is.

      17        We already know her biases and prejudices

      18        and the court already has more than

      19        sufficient information to determine her

      20        credibility on that basis.  Thank you.

      21            THE COURT:  All right.  Any rebuttal,

      22       Mr. Pope?

      23            MR. POPE:  Yes, Your Honor.  With regard

      24       to Mr. Merrett, his comment that it was

      25       nickels and dimes, if it's nickels and dimes

.                                                                992

       1       let's find out about that and on the question

       2       of Mr. Howie's argument there are a couple of

       3       instances here where her bias in favor of

       4       Mr. Minton is on point.

       5            One is she testified that she sent him

       6        out to examine the security camera out there

       7        and the other is it's pretty clear that the

       8        LMT is totally financially dependent on

       9        Mr. Minton and she is a salaried employee of

      10        it and she is therefore totally, financially

      11        dependent on him and I think we're entitled

      12        to know the extent of it.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, if I can point out

      14       one thing?

      15            THE COURT:  Go ahead.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  With respect to her

      17       testimony, she actually specifically

      18       testified that she didn't say anything to

      19       Mr. Minton about the camera, that she told me

      20       what she wanted done and she did have any

      21       communication with him about it so she has

      22       not testified about anything that Mr. Minton

      23       is charged with doing.

      24            MR. HOWIE:  If I may, Your Honor?

      25            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

.                                                                993

       1            MR. HOWIE:  In response, if they're

       2       already established her total financial

       3       dependence upon Mr. Minton to their

       4       satisfaction, I hardly see why any further

       5       inquiry is necessary.

       6            THE COURT:  Gentleman, I thank you all

       7       very much for these arguments I'm.  Going to

       8       deny that request at this time.  The per bias

       9       and prejudice has been clearly put on the

      10       record.  As far as towards the other side, as

      11       far as Minton is concerned and everything

      12       else.

      13            We're here on show cause on a temporary

      14        injunction.  These questions would probably

      15        be more appropriate for discovery when this

      16        is moved for a permanent injunction and I'll

      17        deal with it accordingly at that time, but

      18        for making a determination today or at the

      19        conclusion of these proceedings regarding

      20        her feelings and I think they're rather

      21        strong feelings are pretty self evident and

      22        there has been a lot in the record for which

      23        this court can judge her credibility,

      24        believability and whether she is or is not

      25        telling the truth on certain answers here.

.                                                                994

       1        So I'm not going to go any on this that one,

       2        but I'm telling you it may not be a dead

       3        issue at the discovery stage.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.  Now, let's press

       6       on.

       7            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

       8       Honor.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  No further questions.

      11            THE COURT:  Ma'am, you may step down.

      12       Mr. Howie any question?

      13            MR. HOWIE:  No.

      14            THE COURT:  You may step down, please.

      15            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, while she is

      16       stepping down we do want to reserve the right

      17       to recall her perhaps.

      18            THE COURT:  Yeah, she's a party and I'm

      19       not excusing her.  I just asked her to step

      20       down and she's subject to recall.  Okay, and

      21       let the record reflect I think that we have

      22       given copies to the attorneys on both sides

      23       of the business card of the additional

      24       attorney that appeared here on the defense

      25       side, the gentleman from France, and I have a

.                                                                995

       1       that card now and I will file his business

       2       card in the record and so we can go from

       3       there.

       4            Now, sir, next witness.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Call John Enerson.

       6            THE COURT:  I'm going to continue him

       7       under the oath that I placed him under

       8       previously.

       9            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett, one thing I do

      11       want to be sure of, the defendants out there

      12       do understand that they have a right to

      13       communicate with their attorneys.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      15            THE COURT:  My problem with that

      16       incident was for as a person as the witness

      17       on the stand and you can't communicate with a

      18       witness that is testifying.  You dod

      19       understand that?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      21            THE COURT:  Okay.  I don't want you to

      22       feel that you can't come forward and talk to

      23       your attorneys and if he is serving as

      24       additional counsel or something else, he has

      25       a right to talk to the attorneys.

.                                                                996

       1            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.

       3                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

       4   BY MR. MERRETT:

       5        Q    Mr. Enerson, can you tell the court what

       6   office or position you hold with the Lisa McPherson

       7   trust?

       8        A    Yes.  Absolutely none.

       9        Q    Can you tell the court what employment or

      10   financial relationship you have with Robert Minton?

      11        A    Absolutely none.

      12        Q    Has Mr. Minton reimbursed you for

      13   expenditures you made at my request for costs in this

      14   case?

      15        A    Yes, he has.

      16        Q    What were those costs?

      17        A    Those were for exhibits for this hearing.

      18        Q    Okay.  Other than that has he ever given you

      19   any money?

      20        A    Absolutely none.

      21        Q    Have you ever picketed or protested or made

      22   any public or private statement concerning Scientology

      23   at the request Mr. Minton or at the request of the

      24   Lisa McPherson Trust?

      25        A    Absolutely not.

.                                                                997

       1        Q    You do however consider yourself an activist

       2   concerning Scientology?

       3        A    Very much so.

       4        Q    Now, let me ask you, you saw the and I'll

       5   start with the videotape of yourself, Mr. Lerma and I

       6   think it was Ida Camburn walking across the south face

       7   of the Clearwater Bank Building?

       8        A    Yeah.

       9        Q    Down Cleveland Street?

      10        A    On the Cleveland Street side, yes.

      11        Q    Can you tell me what you were doing at that

      12   time?

      13        A    I was walking back to the Lisa McPherson

      14   Trust from picketing either over near the Coachman

      15   Building or near the Ft. Harrison Hotel.

      16        Q    Were picketing at that time?

      17        A    No, I didn't consider it be picketing at

      18   all.  It was merely a transition or in transit.

      19        Q    Did you believe that what you were doing was

      20   in violation of the court's injunction?

      21        A    No, I didn't.

      22        Q    Do you believe now that it was in violation

      23   of the court's injunction?

      24        A    No, I don't.

      25        Q    Is there any way that -- let me ask you

.                                                                998

       1   first off, have you looked at the injunction?

       2        A    Yes, I have.

       3        Q    And have you looked at the maps that ar

       4   attached to the injunction?

       5        A    Yes, I have.

       6        Q    Is there any way to get from either the

       7   Coachman Building or the area across the street from

       8   the Ft. Harrison Hotel back to the Lisa McPherson

       9   Trust without passing through an area which is on the

      10   map and not colored in orange?

      11        A    Yes, if I was able to fly.

      12        Q    Other than that is there?

      13        A    No.

      14        Q    By automobile or on foot?

      15        A    Not by my current abilities, no.

      16        Q    So even if you walked ten blocks west or

      17   east rather you would still have to loop around and

      18   come back on the map in an unorange zone?

      19        A    I would think so.

      20        Q    Okay.  Do you recall the testimony in the

      21   videotape about yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Lerma,

      22   Ms. Gogolla and it may have been me, walking along

      23   Ft. Harrison Avenue adjacent to the Coachman Building

      24   parking lot?

      25        A    Yes, I recall that.

.                                                                999

       1        Q    Do you recall crossing the driveway?

       2        A    Yes, I do.

       3        Q    Were you picketing in the driveway?

       4        A    No, I was not picketing.

       5        Q    What were you doing?

       6        A    I was crossing the driveway actually from

       7   one orange zone to another.  Normally when I picket or

       8   what I consider picketing, we would walk back and

       9   forth.  At no time have we ever done that in those

      10   demarcated areas that are not orange zones.

      11        Q    Let me ask you about that.  The first part

      12   of that videotape and the first part of the testimony

      13   dealt with you, Mr. Minton Mr. Lerma, and Ms. Gogolla

      14   on the north side of that of -- no, the south side of

      15   that parking lot, that sidewalk along Park Street?

      16        A    That's correct.

      17        Q    Were you picketing there?

      18        A    Yes, I was.

      19        Q    Were you and your companions occupying

      20   essentially the same area?

      21        A    Yes, we were in that area for quite a while.

      22        Q    When you say quite a while, tell the judge

      23   what you mean?

      24        A    I would think we were probably there

      25   half-an-hour to an hour.

.                                                                1000

       1        Q    And were you moving back and forth within

       2   that single stretch of sidewalk?

       3        A    Absolutely.

       4        Q    Is that what you consider to be picketing?

       5        A    That's what I consider to be picketing,

       6   walking in a prescribed area or normally when I

       7   picketed through all the thousands of miles of

       8   videotape that Scientology has of me picketing and

       9   from hundreds of cameras they have obviously seen me

      10   walking back and forth, walking back and forth.

      11        Q    In front of Ft. Harrison?

      12        A    Absolutely.

      13        Q    Prior to the injunction?

      14        A    Absolutely.

      15        Q    Now, as you cross the driveway, did you stop

      16   in the driveway?

      17        A    Nope.

      18        Q    Did you ever prior to returning to the Lisa

      19   McPherson Trust did you ever turn and cross back over

      20   the driveway?

      21        A    I don't believe I did, no.

      22        Q    Do you recall having made any kind of a loop

      23   that included the driveway?

      24        A    No, I did not.

      25        Q    Did you believe yourself to be violating the

.                                                                1001

       1   injunction as you crossed the driveway?

       2        A    No, I did not believe I was violating the

       3   injunction.

       4        Q    Do you now believe that that was violating

       5   the injunction?

       6        A    I don't believe that I did or will, no.  I

       7   have to be able to walk from one area to another.

       8        Q    Let me ask you again in order to get from

       9   the -- if this is the parking lot of the Coachman

      10   Building?

      11        A    Yes.

      12        Q    And let's see, this is north?

      13        A    That would be correct.

      14        Q    And these areas where I've drawn the

      15   scribbles, if that's the ten feet on either side of

      16   the driveway, is that a way to get from this X to this

      17   X without being on the map in a place that is not

      18   colored orange?

      19        A    No.

      20        Q    Okay.

      21        A    No, there is no way.

      22        Q    In fact if you cross the street to the other

      23   side of Ft. Harrison Avenue you're on that map and out

      24   of an orange zone with picket signs --

      25        A    I believe the west sidewalk of Ft. Harrison

.                                                                1002

       1   Avenue is not marked orange.

       2        Q    Okay.  Was your only purpose in going and

       3   being in the driveway at all transitting from one

       4   side, from one orange zone to another?

       5        A    That's the only thing I've ever done

       6   crossing any of those zones.

       7        Q    Okay.  Now, let me ask you about this

       8   sidewalk along the south side of Ft. Harrison where

       9   your picket began.  Is the driveway or does the

      10   driveway, the back driveway into this parking lot,

      11   does it open through this sidewalk?

      12        A    I believe -- you know, the best of my

      13   recollection this is -- a does open out from the

      14   alleyway.  I think the driveway actually from the

      15   parking lot itself and part of the alleyway there seem

      16   to be one thing there, if I recall right.

      17        Q    Okay.  Let me ask you this.  Does the

      18   sidewalk come up to the edge of the alleyway?

      19        A    I believe it does, yes.

      20        Q    Okay.  Is there then a driveway that opens

      21   off the alley in the back of the parking lot?

      22        A    Yes, there is.

      23        Q    Did you all ever at any time during the

      24   times that have been testified to, cross into this

      25   driveway?

.                                                                1003

       1        A    No.

       2        Q    Did you remain on this sidewalk?

       3        A    Yes, I did.

       4        Q    Okay.  What about your companion?

       5        A    I believe everyone that I was with was on

       6   that sidewalk there at all times.

       7        Q    Okay.  Now, I want to ask you if you have

       8   had occasion particularly to examine -- this is the

       9   Clearwater Bank Building?

      10        A    Yes.

      11        Q    And this is north here and this would be

      12   Cleveland Street.  Have you had occasion to make a

      13   particular examination of the west side of the

      14   Clearwater Bank Building from the Lisa McPherson Trust

      15   down to Cleveland Street?

      16        A    Yes, I have.

      17        Q    And how did you do that?

      18        A    At your request, actually.

      19        Q    Now, is there a building or buildings

      20   between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Clearwater

      21   Bank Building on the Ft. Harrison side on the west

      22   side?

      23        A    Yes, there is.  It's now referred to here at

      24   the rat bait building.

      25        Q    Okay.  What I want you to do for the court

.                                                                1004

       1   is describe and we'll go in order beginning at the

       2   north end and moving south, describe what is on the

       3   side of the Clearwater Bank Building, okay.

       4             Let's take the first stretch, the first

       5   distance area.  Can you tell the judge what that wall

       6   looks like, what's there?

       7        A    It is actually a blank stucco wall or

       8   concrete wall.

       9        Q    Okay.

      10        A    It's a featureless wall.

      11        Q    About how long is that?

      12        A    I'm going to estimate -- I haven't measured

      13   it, but I would estimate 10, 12 feet.

      14            THE COURT:  You want me to take judicial

      15       notice of that?

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      17            THE COURT:  I mean, I can't tell you how

      18       many years and how many times I've gone past

      19       that and way back when my law office was up

      20       in the West Coast Hotel building.  In fact it

      21       was my firm that built that or converted that

      22       into law offices and I even remember when the

      23       dirty theatre was across the street from the

      24       wall you're talking about.  I never went

      25       there.  I just remember the fight over

.                                                                1005

       1       closing that down, long before Scientology

       2       ever came to town they closed them down, so

       3       let's just press on.  Right, Mr. Pope?

       4            MR. POPE:  You're dead right, Your

       5       Honor.

       6            MR. ENERSON:  I guess His Honor knows

       7       the building better than I do.

       8            THE COURT:  Yeah, I know all that area.

       9       I can remember a long time ago when there was

      10       a fire up there in the second story of that

      11       building and the Scientologists remember that

      12       too, so let's just press on.

      13   BY MR. MERRETT:

      14        Q    Eventually, did you come to a set of windows

      15   that are ten feet off the ground.

      16        A    Yes, I did.

      17        Q    And then there is a set of windows --

      18        A    Let me correct that.  I would estimate they

      19   are probably about eight feet off the ground.

      20        Q    Then as you come down to the corner there is

      21   a set of windows that is more or less eye level?

      22        A    Yeah, I estimate those approximately five

      23   feet from the pavement level.

      24        Q    Can you see -- is there any particular

      25   feature about those windows that affects the ability

.                                                                1006

       1   to see in or out of those windows?

       2        A    As near as I can tell from the outside,

       3   those windows are tinted and there are blinds pulled.

       4   Just walking past and looking they seem to be that

       5   way.

       6        Q    Have you ever seen those windows with the

       7   blinds up?

       8        A    I don't recall that I ever have.

       9        Q    Have you ever in all the times that you've

      10   been back and forth around the Clearwater Bank

      11   Building been able to see into the building and see

      12   people in there?

      13        A    No.

      14        Q    Okay.  You were present on the night of

      15   January 7 when Mr. Minton had this encounter with

      16   Officer Correa and Harbert, correct?

      17        A    That is absolutely correct.

      18        Q    If this is Watterson Avenue and this is

      19   Cleveland, first off I want you to tell the court

      20   whether or not there was a bus here?

      21        A    Yes, there was.  As a matter of fact there

      22   were two or three buses.

      23        Q    Okay.  Were any of the buses moving during

      24   the time of the encounter?

      25        A    Not in the least.

.                                                                1007

       1        Q    Okay.  Did anybody get on or off the buses

       2   during the time that Mr. Minton was having his

       3   encounter with the police officers?

       4        A    I don't recall seeing anybody.  My attention

       5   was focused on the encounter but what was normally my

       6   observation is that when Scientologists come out of

       7   their mess hall there there is a good number of them

       8   filing into the buses and I would have noticed that, I

       9   would think.

      10        Q    Okay.  Did you notice that?

      11        A    No, I didn't.

      12        Q    Let me ask you this.  Did you see anybody

      13   out there other than Mr. Avila, Mr. Minton, the police

      14   and the other members of your party?

      15        A    Specifically in the street?

      16        Q    Anywhere?

      17        A    On the sidewalk, yes, on the west sidewalk.

      18        Q    Okay.  Over here?

      19        A    Yes.

      20        Q    Okay.  Now, during the time that Mr. Minton

      21   had his encounter with the police, was there any

      22   vehicular traffic moving on Watterson Street?

      23        A    None whatsoever.

      24        Q    Okay.  Did you, yourself, step out into the

      25   street at one point?

.                                                                1008

       1        A    Yes, I did.

       2        Q    Did you intervene in Mr. Minton's

       3   confrontation with the police?

       4        A    Yes, I felt that -- I did.  I felt that I

       5   had to.

       6        Q    Okay.  Let me ask you this.  Other than

       7   Mr. Avila who was somewhere in the area with this

       8   video camera, did you see any Scientologists within

       9   ten feet of Mr. Minton?

      10        A    You know, I want to say that there was

      11   another OSA videographer or camera guy there

      12   somewhere.  Now, whether, you know, I think there were

      13   two.

      14        Q    Uh-huh.

      15        A    And his proximity, if it was closer than ten

      16   feet, I'm not sure.

      17        Q    Was he moving around?

      18        A    Yeah, they were moving around.

      19        Q    Okay.  Was there any traffic, foot or

      20   vehicular blocked by this confrontation between

      21   Mr. Minton and the police?

      22        A    No, there was no traffic moving along the

      23   street at all.  Normally when the buses are lined up

      24   there on the west sidewalk they will pull in off of

      25   Cleveland and then my observation has been that they

.                                                                1009

       1   go out single file from the lead bus that way coming

       2   from the west and turning in, so we were --

       3        Q    Okay.  Let me stop you right there.  Do they

       4   generally exit from the front door or the rear door of

       5   the bus?

       6        A    I've seen both.

       7        Q    Uh-huh.  And they proceed in what manner?

       8        A    Come off of the west sidewalk and walk

       9   between the buses --

      10        Q    Hang on a second; getting off the bus?

      11        A    Getting off of the bus?

      12        Q    Right.

      13        A    They exit the bus on the right side of the

      14   bus, that door through there, walk around the bus onto

      15   the west sidewalk.

      16        Q    Okay.  In single file?

      17        A    You know, generally I've seem it that way.

      18   Yeah, single file.

      19        Q    All right.  And these buses have two doors?

      20        A    I can't speak for all of the buses, but I've

      21   noticed a number of them do have a front and a center

      22   or rear door.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  If I can have just

      24       a second, Your Honor?

      25            THE COURT:  You may.

.                                                                1010

       1             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       2        place.)

       3   BY MR. MERRETT:

       4        Q    Let me ask you if as of January 7 if there

       5   was a general consensus regarding the status, among

       6   activists was there a general consensus regarding this

       7   status of these off-duty police officers and the

       8   Church of Scientology?

       9        A    Yes, there was.  I came to a conclusion

      10   myself, but, yeah. but our consensus was that they

      11   were working for Scientology.

      12        Q    That they were agents of Scientology?

      13        A    Absolutely.

      14        Q    And covered by the injunction?

      15        A    Yes.  I even asked one of the officers,

      16   spoke with him.

      17            MR. MERRETT:  Can I have just a second,

      18       Your Honor?

      19            THE COURT:  You can have it.  Take your

      20       time.

      21             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      22        place.)

      23   BY MR. MERRETT:

      24        Q    Mr. Enerson, has there been a time since the

      25   injunction was entered and you became aware of it that

.                                                                1011

       1   you picketed in what you believed to be an area you

       2   were not allowed to picket?

       3        A    No.

       4        Q    Have you at any time knowingly or

       5   deliberately violated the court's order?

       6        A    No.  I've tried very hard to stay within the

       7   court's order.

       8        Q    Let me ask you this.  Talking about staying

       9   within the court's order, are you the inventor of the

      10   Threep?

      11        A    Yes, I am.

      12        Q    Can you tell the court by profession what

      13   you do?

      14            THE COURT:  Hold on just a minute.

      15       Let's get that in here.  I'm sorry, it's in

      16       my chambers.

      17             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      18        place.)

      19            Okay.  Just sit it down there on the

      20        court reporter's table for now.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, I need to jump back

      22       to another area that I omitted.

      23            THE COURT:  Okay.  Let the record so

      24       reflect that you're moving back to something

      25       else.  Go ahead.

.                                                                1012

       1   BY MR. MERRETT:

       2        Q    I'm talking about the might of January 7

       3   again.  Were you part of the party that included

       4   Mr. Minton that was originally coming south on the

       5   east sidewalk on Watterson?

       6        A    Yes, I was.

       7            THE COURT:  What the date?

       8            MR. MERRETT:  January 7.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you, sir.

      10   BY MR. MERRETT:

      11        Q    Okay, and were you there when Mr. Minton

      12   veered out into the road.

      13        A    Yes, I was.

      14        Q    Let me ask you if you had past those officer

      15   before Mr. Minton did earlier that evening?

      16        A    Yes, I had.

      17        Q    Had the officers made some comments to you?

      18        A    Both officers made some comments, yeah.

      19   That's originally why I went back the other way and

      20   left that area.

      21        Q    Did you go back and tell Mr. Minton what had

      22   happened and --

      23        A    Right, I saw Mr. Minton walking south on the

      24   same sidewalk towards us and I mentioned to him what

      25   had happened.  I was actually on my way back out of

.                                                                1013

       1   that area.

       2        Q    What is it that happened?

       3        A    Ms. Bezazian and I and Mr. Lerma were down

       4   in that area and Officers Harbert and Correa were

       5   standing by the alleyway there and as we went down

       6   with our megaphones and picket signs and started to

       7   picket that evening I passed by the officers and I

       8   don't recall which one I heard loud enough for one of

       9   them to say something to the effect of --

      10            MR. POPE:  Objection.  I think we're

      11       getting into a hearsay area.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett?

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, it goes to

      14       state of mind, as to Mr. Minton's state of

      15       mind and to the bias and prejudice of Officer

      16       Harbert.

      17            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, Mister --

      18            THE COURT:  I think that has to come

      19       through Mr. Minton.  Now, as far as his bias

      20       or prejudice or anything -- scratch that --

      21       affected this witness, then okay.  But not

      22       for him to try to establish bias or prejudice

      23       of Mr. Minton.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  No, Your Honor, I'm trying

      25       to establish bias and prejudice of Officer

.                                                                1014

       1       Harbert.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay, but what effect, what

       3       did he do?  What happened here?  Well --

       4            MR. MERRETT:  I can just leave this for

       5       Mr. Howie.

       6            THE COURT:  Press on.  Press on.

       7            MR. MERRETT:  That's probably the

       8       easiest way.

       9            THE COURT:  That's what I was trying to

      10       get to.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  May I confer just a moment

      12       with Mr. Howie?

      13            THE COURT:  Yeah.

      14             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      15        place.)

      16            I'd like to go back and talk about this

      17        police incident.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      19            THE COURT:  All right.  You,

      20       Mr. Enerson, okay, you made a comment earlier

      21       that you felt that the Clearwater Police

      22       Department were agents of the Church of

      23       Scientology; did you not say that?

      24            MR. ENERSON:  Yes, I did, Your Honor.

      25            THE COURT:  All right.  Why did you feel

.                                                                1015

       1       that way?

       2            MR. ENERSON:  Let me clarify, I don't

       3       fell that the whole entire police department

       4       was.

       5            THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Okay.  Clarify.

       6            MR. ENERSON:  Those two officers working

       7       out there on Watterson that night were acting

       8       as agents of or on behalf of Scientology at

       9       that time.

      10            THE COURT:  Why do you say that?

      11            MR. ENERSON:  They were, to the best of

      12       my knowledge I asked one of the officers if

      13       he was currently working for them and he said

      14       yes.  I mean originally he told me, you know,

      15       this is the Clearwater Police Department

      16       badge but when I pressed the issue of who was

      17       he working for right then he said none of you

      18       damn business.

      19            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, that's hearsay

      20       and I move to strike it.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Well, actually the court's

      22       question if I may remind it --

      23            THE COURT:  Yeah.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Why did Mr. Enerson think

      25       they were agents of Scientology?

.                                                                1016

       1            THE COURT:  Yeah, and I think that --

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Additionally, Your Honor,

       3       since the witness is obviously not trying to

       4       prove that it was none of his damn business.

       5            THE COURT:  I understand.  Press on, but

       6       Mr. Enerson, other than you saying are

       7       you -- what did you say, are you paid by the

       8       Scientologists?

       9            MR. ENERSON:  I simple asked who he was

      10       working for.

      11            THE COURT:  Working for, okay.  And that

      12       was all that happened that led you to believe

      13       that they were agents for the Scientologists?

      14            MR. ENERSON:  No, Your Honor.  I was

      15       verbally harassed by the two officers there.

      16            THE COURT:  And you were in the orange

      17       zone?

      18            MR. ENERSON:  Yes, Your Honor.

      19            THE COURT:  Had you been harassed by any

      20       other Clearwater Police Department officer?

      21            MR. ENERSON:  Not at all.

      22            THE COURT:  And they've been out there

      23       for over a year now in that area that I know

      24       of, because last year under the prior

      25       injunction these gentlemen gave me authority

.                                                                1017

       1       to go and just observe what was going on out

       2       there.

       3            MR. ENERSON:  That was the first time.

       4            THE COURT:  There were Clearwater police

       5       officers were there.

       6            MR. ENERSON:  That's the first time I've

       7       ever been harassed.

       8            THE COURT:  Has it happened subsequent?

       9            MR. ENERSON:  No.

      10            THE COURT:  What were the names of these

      11       officers again?

      12            MR. ENERSON:  Officers Harbert and

      13       Correa.

      14            THE COURT:  And what, Correa?

      15            MR. ENERSON:  I don't know the spelling.

      16            THE COURT:  Just those two?

      17            MR. ENERSON:  Just those two.

      18            THE COURT:  One wasn't a female, was it?

      19            MR. ENERSON:  No, they are both male.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.

      21            MR. ENERSON:  Officer Harbert has

      22       already right testified.

      23            THE COURT:  No, no, I understand that.

      24       All right.  And that was all that led you to

      25       believe that they were agents?

.                                                                1018

       1            MR. ENERSON:  Well, the verbal

       2       harassment and then when I turned and asked

       3       them, you know, who are you working for right

       4       now, I said are you here on behalf of

       5       Scientology or are you here on behalf of the

       6       Clearwater Police Department and I was told

       7       it wasn't any of my business.

       8            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope.

       9       Certainly you, Mr. Merrett and Mr. Howie,

      10       I'll give you a chance to ask questions in

      11       light of the questions I asked, okay.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      13            THE COURT:  When you get up here so

      14       don't forget that, you all.  Okay.  Go ahead.

      15   BY MR. MERRETT:

      16        Q    Let me ask this apropos to the subject

      17   matter raised by the court.  Have you seen what's

      18   known as the police video?

      19        A    Yes, I have.

      20        Q    And you are aware that these officers have

      21   been paid several thousand dollars by Scientology over

      22   the previous year to act as security guards for

      23   Scientology?

      24        A    I wasn't aware of those two particular

      25   officers in any manner, just that some Clearwater

.                                                                1019

       1   police have worked for Scientology.

       2        Q    And were you aware that they were there

       3   off-duty acting as security guards?

       4        A    That was my understanding, yes.

       5        Q    And is that the basis on which you concluded

       6   that they were agents of Scientology?

       7        A    Partially, yes.

       8        Q    Okay.  Was it in any --

       9            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  You say

      10       partially yes.  In light of your answer to

      11       him and in light of your answer to me, where

      12       is the other part of the partially?

      13            MR. ENERSON:  My questions to the

      14       officers there on the street that night, Your

      15       Honor, when I asked who they were working for

      16       and they refused to answer me and said it was

      17       none of your business and the way I was

      18       treated I assume from that also.

      19            I had seen the police video, I had seen

      20        that they were paid off duty and then when I

      21        was there that night and the verbal

      22        harassment and when I inquired who they were

      23        working for, the reaction I got led me to

      24        believe that they were there on behalf of

      25        Scientology.

.                                                                1020

       1            THE COURT:  When you said police video,

       2       what are you talking about, police video?

       3            MR. ENERSON:  It's a video that was

       4       produced by the Lisa McPherson Trust, I

       5       guess, that shows some of the incidents with

       6       Clearwater Police Department over the past

       7       year or so showing a bias toward the Lisa

       8       McPherson Trust in particular.

       9            I previously had an opportunity to see

      10        that video.  I would think -- I don't know

      11        how long.

      12            THE COURT:  There is a video that shows

      13       police biased towards the Lisa McPherson

      14       Trust?

      15            MR. ENERSON:  Yes, there is.

      16            THE COURT:  And you tell me that you

      17       don't work for or have anything to do with

      18       the Lisa McPherson Trust; is that right?

      19            MR. ENERSON:  That's correct.

      20            THE COURT:  Yet, you were shown this

      21       video?

      22            MR. ENERSON:  Many people have seen it.

      23       It's actually on the internet right now.

      24            THE COURT:  It's on the internet?

      25            MR. ENERSON:  Yes, it is.

.                                                                1021

       1            THE COURT:  What's the site?

       2            MR. ENERSON:  I believe it's on the Lisa

       3       McPherson Trust site.

       4            THE COURT:  That's that site?

       5            MR. ENERSON:  WWW.Lisatrust.Net, I

       6       believe?

       7            THE COURT:  Lisatrust.Net?

       8            MR. ENERSON:  I believe so.

       9            THE COURT:  What do you do, click on

      10       police brutality photo or something?

      11            MR. ENERSON:  I think it's under LMT

      12       Media or there is a search engine there that

      13       I think you can search for it.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, I've got a copy of

      15       the video if the court would like to see it.

      16       I believe I do, don't I?

      17            I have a copy if the court wants to

      18        watch it.  It's about 20 minutes long.

      19            THE COURT:  Well, it's certainly your

      20       case, but if you're saying -- well, I won't

      21       say any more, but --

      22            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.  If I can

      23       continue?

      24            THE COURT:  Continue with this witness.


.                                                                1022

       1   BY MR. MERRETT:

       2        Q    Yes, sir.  Going back to where we were, you

       3   are the inventor of the Threep?

       4        A    Yes, I am.

       5        Q    And can you tell the court first off what

       6   the purpose of the device is?

       7        A    Well, the purpose of it was, you know, we

       8   were discussing the injunction among several people.

       9   I don't recall who, but the comment came up and there

      10   had been a discussion about what are we supposed to

      11   do, walk around the streets with a ten foot pole

      12   trying to stay clear of the Scientologists in order to

      13   maintain the court ordered distance and that's when

      14   the idea I guess was born.  You know, well, maybe we

      15   should have a ten foot pole.  Might be the best way I

      16   recall during picketing in I think it was around

      17   December 2 or December 3 I recall some police officer

      18   somewhere saying something about a distance we had to

      19   stay from a driveway or something, but my observation

      20   based on my judgment it was I thought less than ten

      21   feet.

      22        Q    Let me ask you if can describe for the court

      23   the features of the Threep?  First off, what does the

      24   ball mark?

      25        A    The outside end of the ball is ten feet,

.                                                                1023

       1   measures ten feet from the outside end of that ball to

       2   the flashing light.

       3        Q    To the face --

       4        A    Face of the flashing light, yeah.

       5        Q    Okay.  And is it intended to be carried like

       6   this is the right hand so that the face of the light

       7   is ahead of the body?

       8        A    You can carry it any way you like, but the

       9   idea is that the face of that light to the end of the

      10   ball is ten feet.

      11        Q    Okay.  And I'm assuming that you would not

      12   represent that every feature of the Threep despite its

      13   obviously utility is deadly serious?

      14        A    I think -- well, look at it.  I think it

      15   probably looks more like Dr. Seuss than anything else.

      16        Q    What is the -- I mean, other than the ten

      17   feet, what were your other goals in designing it other

      18   than marking out ten feet?

      19        A    Again, it's humorous.  I thought it was

      20   rather humorous and I guess to point out that ten feet

      21   is ten feet.  It's a little bit more than I assume it

      22   to be sometimes, I guess.

      23        Q    Let me ask you this.  Is there any

      24   particular reason other than the pleasure or humor

      25   that caused you to make it look funny?

.                                                                1024

       1        A    Well, yeah, my concern was when I did this

       2   thing I didn't want to have some Scientologist or OSA

       3   or anything suddenly use this in a video or something

       4   and say, look, they're carrying a weapon, so, you

       5   know, or had a weapon so I did everything I could

       6   possibly do by making that thing literally scream not

       7   a weapon.

       8        Q    And as far as the name "Threep", I think

       9   it's been established that stands for what?

      10        A    It was originally called the Penick Picket

      11   Pole.  That was three Ps and the then when we spell

      12   three p it became Threep.

      13        Q    Who came up with that name?

      14        A    I did.

      15        Q    And was that any kind of a gallop or dig at

      16   the court?

      17        A    Absolutely not.  It was -- I recall from

      18   reading the previous court testimony or transcripts

      19   and that or I heard it on the internet as well

      20   something called Penick's Picket Chicken I guess what

      21   it was referred to or --

      22            THE COURT:  That was last year.

      23            MR. ENERSON:  Last year.

      24            THE COURT:  So this year we've got the

      25       Penick Picket Pole.  Let's see what we get

.                                                                1025

       1       next year.

       2            MR. ENERSON:  But I never intended that

       3       as a mockery or any, you know, thing like

       4       that.  In fact I was relieved that we

       5       actually had or the judge had given us that

       6       ten foot space bilaterally in the injunction

       7       because I was, you know, present in some of

       8       those pickets this last summer where we had a

       9       great number of Scientologists gathered

      10       around us, closing in on us and shoving and

      11       pushing and that sort of thing so that ten

      12       foot was, you know, if anything else it was

      13       probably more the Threep represents gratitude

      14       more than mocking the court.

      15            THE COURT:  Let me -- well, you said

      16       something interesting there.  You did.  Did I

      17       understand you to say that you were actually

      18       glad that the court had put some sort of

      19       distance between you and the other side?

      20            MR. ENERSON:  Yeah, Your Honor, I was.

      21            THE COURT:  In other words you felt

      22       better with some sort of space there rather

      23       than me just saying no injunction; everybody

      24       go have a good time?

      25            MR. ENERSON:  I felt better in light of

.                                                                1026

       1       some of the -- I had previously like I said

       2       last summer been involved in some pickets

       3       there where I had Scientologists directly

       4       screaming in my face, circling around me.

       5            I also testified here I guess in the

       6        original injunction hearing on the attack or

       7        the altercation between Mr. Minton and

       8        another fellow there and having that space,

       9        actually I was, you know, thought that that

      10        helps us too to preserve our First Amendment

      11        rights to picket and protest and protects

      12        us.

      13            THE COURT:  So would be able to do an

      14       about face with a sign without not striking

      15       someone who is like I said playing Picket

      16       Chicken right up behind you with a video

      17       camera?

      18            MR. ENERSON:  That's correct.

      19            THE COURT:  And not have to worry about

      20       getting knocked unconscious by a video camera

      21       if you did 180 or so?

      22            MR. ENERSON:  Right.  I've always tried

      23       to be careful when we're picketing.  I've

      24       tried to not have those kind of physical

      25       contacts, but certainly you can't avoid that

.                                                                1027

       1       if somebody is -- you have three or four

       2       Scientologists circling around you staring in

       3       your face, it's awfully difficult not to come

       4       into physical contact.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you don't feel

       6       that your constitutional rights or First

       7       Amendment rights were stifled by having that

       8       ten foot space?

       9            MR. ENERSON:  No, not at all.

      10            THE COURT:  Are you aware that the

      11       injunction is being appealed?

      12            MR. ENERSON:  I had heard something to

      13       that effect.  I don't know the details of it.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay, but you're comfortable

      15       with the space?

      16            MR. ENERSON:  So far I am, yes.

      17       Personally, that's my personal position.

      18            THE COURT:  If you were the judge, would

      19       you increase that space or decrease it?  Are

      20       you satisfied with ten feet?

      21            MR. ENERSON:  I'm satisfied with then

      22       feet.  I would hate to have to design another

      23       Threep at this point, Your Honor.

      24            THE COURT:  I understand that.  Of

      25       course, you know, that could be job security.

.                                                                1028

       1            MR. ENERSON:  I didn't get paid for

       2       those, Your Honor.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  There is a potential

       4       market there.

       5            MR. ENERSON:  I would like to have an

       6       autographed model at some point.

       7            THE COURT:  Move on.

       8            MR. MERRETT:  I have nothing further,

       9       Your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, you may, sir.

      11                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      12   BY MR. HOWIE:

      13        Q    Thank you, Your Honor.  Mr. Enerson, I

      14   wanted to ask you some questions concerning the

      15   incident on the evening of January 7.  You've seen the

      16   videotape in that case, haven't you?

      17        A    Yes, I have.

      18        Q    And it fairly and accurately depicts the

      19   events that occurred between my client, Mr. Minton,

      20   and the two police officers, correct?

      21        A    Yes, it essentially depicts what occurred

      22   there.

      23        Q    Now, I want to draw your attention to events

      24   that occurred that same evening just prior to what we

      25   see to the videotape.  You indicated in your testimony

.                                                                1029

       1   that you had a previous contact with these two police

       2   officers on Watterson, correct?

       3        A    That's correct.

       4        Q    And in fact was it on the east side sidewalk

       5   of Watterson?

       6        A    That's correct.

       7        Q    And did you know that to be an orange zone?

       8        A    Yes.  I understood that entire sidewalk down

       9   to close to the parking garage to be an orange zone.

      10        Q    Now, you saw where the two police officers

      11   were standing on the videotape.  Is that where the two

      12   police officers were standing when you had your

      13   contact with them before the videotape started?

      14        A    The two officers were originally standing by

      15   the alleyway.  There is an alleyway right behind that

      16   building on that side of the street and they normally

      17   stand that but they started out there and moved closer

      18   down to where I was.  I had moved south of them and

      19   they moved down closer to where Ms. Bezazian and

      20   Mr. Lerma and I were.

      21        Q    All right.  Now, in the entire time prior to

      22   this videotape, the entire time you remained on the

      23   east side sidewalk of Watterson, correct?

      24        A    Oh, yes.

      25        Q    You didn't step out into the center of

.                                                                1030

       1   Watterson or anything like that?

       2        A    No, I did not.

       3        Q    And were you attempting to obey the

       4   injunction at that time?

       5        A    Yes, I was.

       6        Q    All right.  Now, your contact -- what were

       7   you actually doing there?  What was your purpose of

       8   being there at that particular time?

       9        A    I was picketing there.  I was holding my

      10   picket sign and speaking through a megaphone that I

      11   had with me.

      12        Q    All right.  And what initiated this contact

      13   between you and the two police officers?

      14        A    As I passed by in front of them they

      15   actually had their backs up to the building standing

      16   on the sidewalk so I had to go between the curb and

      17   the police officers there to go back and forth.  As I

      18   picket I go back and forth in the prescribed area that

      19   I choose within an orange zone.

      20        Q    And how was it that you actually came into

      21   communication?

      22        A    Passing by them they -- one of the officers

      23   that I later learned to be Harbert or Correa are the

      24   two names, started making comments to me.

      25        Q    All right.  And did you respond to those

.                                                                1031


       2        A    No, I did not.

       3        Q    Did you say anything to these officers at

       4   all at that time?

       5        A    At that time, no.

       6        Q    Now, afterwards did you have contact with my

       7   clint, Robert Minton, that evening?

       8        A    Yes, I became concerned about the attitude

       9   of the officers there and I walked north on Watterson

      10   on the sidewalk and met Mr. Minton coming south on the

      11   sidewalk.

      12        Q    And Mr. Minton was on the east side sidewalk

      13   of Watterson?

      14        A    That's correct.

      15        Q    And what did you tell Mr. Minton about your

      16   run-in?

      17        A    I told him that I was afraid that these

      18   officers down here were being harassing and that and I

      19   thought we should get a video camera or something, you

      20   know, that they were harassing us picketing down there

      21   is basically what I said to him.

      22        Q    Okay.  What did you see Mr. Minton do

      23   immediately after you told him this?

      24        A    Mr. Minton started walking, he went walking

      25   south on that sidewalk.

.                                                                1032

       1        Q    Now, you said you saw the videotape and in

       2   the videotape is it correct that when the scene opens

       3   Mr. Minton is in fact on the east side sidewalk

       4   walking south?

       5        A    That's correct.

       6        Q    To the best your knowledge and belief based

       7   on your personal recollection and based on the

       8   videotape, does that videotape show Mr. Minton

       9   immediately after you spoke to him?

      10        A    Yes, that was immediately after.

      11        Q    And did you see, did you observe, yourself,

      12   Mr. Minton stepping off the sidewalk to go around the

      13   police officer?

      14        A    Yeah, I got within I would say 10, 15 feet

      15   rather than, you know, violate the injunction if they

      16   were agents or working on behalf of Scientology as the

      17   injunction said I would have to go around them to

      18   maintain a ten foot distance.  Mr. Minton went into

      19   the street at that point.

      20        Q    As the inventor of the Threep you're

      21   familiar with what ten feet is?

      22        A    Absolutely.

      23        Q    And did Mr. Minton appear to attempt to stay

      24   ten feet away from these officers?

      25        A    Yeah, I believe he did.

.                                                                1033

       1        Q    Okay.  And the video shows Mr. Minton

       2   continuing to go in a southerly direction but in a

       3   semicircle around the police officers and the video

       4   shows you going up to Mr. Minton at that point when

       5   the police officers confronted him.  What was your

       6   purpose of coming up at that point?

       7        A    One of the officers stepped up to, you know,

       8   almost touching noses with Mr. Minton and was making,

       9   you know, saying things to him that led me to believe

      10   that there was a serious confrontation.

      11             This officer was very provocative to

      12   Mr. Minton and I intervened trying to separate the

      13   two, put some distance in there, so I tried to put my

      14   elbow in there but I thought it was getting way out of

      15   hand.  Both the officers were becoming very abusive,

      16   as well.

      17        Q    Now, afterwards, after this verbal

      18   confrontation that's shown on videotape between

      19   Mr. Minton and the two police officers, what did you

      20   observe Mr. Minton do?

      21        A    He moved away from the police officers and

      22   stepped up on the sidewalk just to the south of them.

      23        Q    And when you say the sidewalk, you mean the

      24   sidewalk on the east sidewalk --

      25        A    The east sidewalk in the orange zone, yes.

.                                                                1034

       1        Q    And, again, just to clarify, you said that

       2   when he stepped back on the sidewalk he continued to

       3   be in the orange zone?

       4        A    That is correct.

       5        Q    Now, I want to ask you about some of the

       6   provisions of the injunction itself.  You are

       7   personally familiar with the injunction?

       8        A    I've read it and looked at it, yes.

       9        Q    Okay.  Now, at any time during this entire

      10   incident that you have reported, did Mr. Minton come

      11   within ten feet of any person you knew to be a member

      12   of the Church of Scientology?

      13        A    Actually a Scientologist came closer than

      14   ten feet with Mr. Minton.  He didn't proceed toward

      15   within but one did.

      16        Q    Can you identify that person by name?

      17        A    Yes, Antonio Avila.

      18            THE COURT:  Now, stop right there just a

      19       minute please.

      20             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      21        place.)

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.

      23   BY MR. HOWIE:

      24        Q    Thank you.  You say Antonio Avila.  Were you

      25   present when Mr. Avila testified in court?

.                                                                1035

       1        A    Yes, I was.

       2        Q    That's the Antonio Avila that you were

       3   referring to?

       4        A    The gentleman in the back row over here.

       5        Q    During this entire incident did Mr. Avila

       6   have a video camera in his hand?

       7        A    Yes, he did.

       8        Q    And at what point in this incident did

       9   Mr. Avila get within ten feet of Mr. Minton?

      10        A    I think it was he began -- he got a lot

      11   closer when the police officers closed up tight with

      12   Mr. Minton and got directly in his face and he

      13   approached very close with the video camera.  He got

      14   in I would eye guess six feet, four to six feet.

      15        Q    Okay.  How long did that last?  How long was

      16   Mr. Avila within four to six feet of Mr. Minton?

      17        A    Not more than a minute or two.

      18        Q    All right.  Is it your testimony that

      19   Mr. Avila approach Mr. Minton, not that Mr. Minton

      20   approached Mr. Avila?

      21        A    That's correct, yes.

      22        Q    Now, during the period of time that

      23   Mr. Minton was temporarily out on Watterson Street

      24   before resuming on the east sidewalk of the street,

      25   did you see Mr. Minton block the path either of any

.                                                                1036

       1   member of the of Church of Scientology or any vehicle

       2   that appeared to block the Church of Scientology?

       3        A    No, there was no traffic on the street at

       4   that time and there are no -- at that point everyone

       5   on the west side of the street basically stayed over

       6   there on the west side of the street.

       7        Q    All right.  Did you see Mr. Minton get close

       8   enough to any doors of any kind, whether it was a door

       9   to a building or a door to a bus in such a way as to

      10   block that entrance?

      11        A    No.

      12        Q    Did you see Mr. Minton harass or commit any

      13   act of violence against any member of the Church of

      14   Scientology that evening?

      15        A    None whatsoever.

      16        Q    To the best of your recollection did

      17   Mr. Minton have a picket sign in his hand during this

      18   incident you've described?

      19        A    I believe Mr. Minton had one of the Xenu

      20   megaphones in his hand at that time.  I don't recall a

      21   picket sign.  I believe he had at that time a

      22   megaphone.

      23        Q    All right.  Do you recall him using that

      24   megaphone at any time when he was not in the orange

      25   zone on the sidewalk?

.                                                                1037

       1        A    I think, no, I don't recall that he used

       2   that megaphone.  You know, I recall him using it on

       3   the sidewalk, but I don't think he used it in the

       4   street.

       5             I think by the time he went in the street it

       6   was down by his side and he was actually pointing his

       7   finger and talking to the police officers at that

       8   point.

       9        Q    All right.  And from your own recollection,

      10   what is your best estimate of the amount of time that

      11   Mr. Minton was actually off the curb in Watterson

      12   Street from the time he stepped off to avoid the

      13   police officers until the time he resumed the

      14   sidewalk?

      15        A    You could check the time stamp or something

      16   on the video, but I wouldn't estimate it was more than

      17   two to three minutes, my guess.

      18        Q    Now, returning to your overhearing the

      19   comments by the police officers, you have testified

      20   that it caused you enough concern to go back to

      21   Mr. Minton and report to him what occurred between you

      22   and the police officers, correct?

      23        A    Yes, I felt that we were from -- my feeling

      24   was from the comments that I was hearing that we

      25   might, you know, eminent threats of arrest.

.                                                                1038

       1        Q    What was said to you that caused you to

       2   believe that you were in eminent threat of arrest?

       3            MR. POPE:  Objection.  Hearsay.

       4            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, it's a matter of

       5       operative statement and it's a matter of

       6       verbal conduct.  It is not submitted to prove

       7       the truth of the matter asserted under

       8       90.801.  It is meant to show what caused this

       9       man to act the way he did.  It was a matter

      10       of imperative or interrogatory.

      11            THE COURT:  But he is going to get a

      12       chance to address if he wants to say it

      13       himself.

      14            MR. HOWIE:  I would also point out that

      15       they're nonassertive conducts.  That is as

      16       the court is well aware, hearsay is a

      17       statement, an assertion meant to contain a

      18       fact or a truth.  This is non-assertive

      19       conduct by the police officers that we're

      20       trying to elicit and it's relevant to show

      21       why Mr. Enerson was concerned.

      22            THE COURT:  You may answer.

      23   BY MR. HOWIE:

      24        Q    Go ahead and answer.  What were the comments

      25   made to you by either of the police officers that

.                                                                1039

       1   caused you this concern.

       2        A    The first comment was as I passed by, what

       3   are you doing out here wasting your time on Sunday

       4   night for nothing.

       5             The Second comment as I passed by speaking

       6   through my megaphone, one of the officers said maybe

       7   we should try a noise ordinance violation and see if

       8   that works on him.

       9        Q    During this entire incident did the police

      10   officers ever arrest or charge Mr. Minton with any

      11   criminal act?

      12        A    No.

      13            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.  I don't have any

      14       further questions.

      15            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope.  Let's

      16       do this.  Wait a minute.  We've been going

      17       for over an hour.  Let's take a break and

      18       we'll take 15 minutes.

      19            Sir, Mr. Enerson, you're on the stand.

      20        I'll let you get down and the bailiff will

      21        show you, there are rest rooms in the jury

      22        room and then come back and wait on the

      23        stand.  Please don't talk to anybody.

      24            MR. ENERSON:  May I go smoke?

      25            THE COURT:  Sure, I'll let you do that,

.                                                                1040

       1       but when you go down and outside to have a

       2       cigarette, stay by yourself just this one

       3       time so nobody thinks that's there's any

       4       problems, anybody slipping information or

       5       trying to change your testimony, okay.

       6             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

       7        which the proceedings continued.)

       8            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, sir, your turn.

       9            MR. POPE:  Thank you, Your Honor.  May

      10       it please the court.

      11            THE COURT:  Please proceed.

      12                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    Mr. Enerson, I believe you were served with

      15   a copy of Injunction Number Two on December 1 at about

      16   4:15 PM; is that correct?

      17        A    I don't recall what time it was, but I was

      18   served with an injunction sometime during that

      19   weekend.

      20        Q    All right.  And did you throw it down or did

      21   you read it?

      22        A    Actually I was holding a picket sign in my

      23   hand.  I think I glanced through it as quickly as I

      24   could.  I think I stuck it either in my pocket or the

      25   back of my belt so I could get to a place where I

.                                                                1041

       1   could study it over.

       2        Q    You kept it and then you studied it over,

       3   didn't you?

       4        A    Later on, yeah, I did.

       5        Q    Okay.  And you in fact attended the hearing

       6   that led to that injunction, didn't you?

       7        A    Yes, I did.

       8        Q    And you testified at it, didn't you?

       9        A    Yes, I did.

      10        Q    All right.  Now, earlier in this proceeding

      11   which is distinguished from the one that one last

      12   fall, you, I believe were present when Officer

      13   Butterfield testified regarding his conversations with

      14   Mrs. Bezazian.  Weren't you present when he testified

      15   in here about that?

      16        A    I may have been, yeah.

      17        Q    Officer Butterfield, to refresh your memory,

      18   testified about discussing the terms of the injunction

      19   with Ms. Bezazian on at least five occasions; do you

      20   remember him saying that?

      21        A    I recall his testimony now, yes.

      22        Q    Were you present during any of those

      23   discussions between that officer and Ms. Bezazian?

      24        A    I don't recall that I was.

      25        Q    Were you present -- did you have any

.                                                                1042

       1   discussions with any police officers with respect to

       2   how that injunction was going to be construed?

       3        A    I believe on November 30 I had again gone

       4   out on the streets of Clearwater earlier in that day

       5   and a police officer approached me from across

       6   Ft. Harrison Avenue, actually crossed the street.

       7             He came up and introduced himself.  I don't

       8   recall his name.  He said he was the duty commander as

       9   I recall at that time.  He told me that he was there

      10   to make sure that our rights, First Amendment rights

      11   and so forth were preserved as well as Scientology's,

      12   that there was no confrontations or problems on the

      13   street and to let me know, he would be around and that

      14   was the extent of it.

      15        Q    Didn't you learn at some point that all you

      16   had to do to stop picketing was to turn the picket

      17   upside down and walk with it in that fashion?

      18        A    I don't recall anything in the that says

      19   what I'm supposed to do with my sign, Mr. Pope.

      20        Q    You didn't learn from anyone else informing

      21   you or from any police officer that all you had to do

      22   to not be picketing was to turn the thing upside down

      23   and walk with it like that?

      24            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object, Your Honor,

      25       for relevance.  The police are not the

.                                                                1043

       1       authors of the injunction.

       2            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       3            MR. ENERSON:  I had heard other

       4       picketers say, you know, that some police

       5       officers had told them to turn the signs

       6       down, but I had never been told that.

       7   BY MR. POPE:

       8        Q    You hadn't been told that and you didn't go

       9   ask anybody about it, did you?

      10        A    I didn't know who to ask.

      11        Q    You didn't know that you could have asked a

      12   police officer about that or perhaps an attorney?

      13        A    Well, I would have had to ask the police

      14   officer to interpret the injunction, I guess, but I

      15   read the and injunction and it didn't say anything in

      16   there about what to do with my sign.

      17        Q    You would rather just take your changes, I

      18   gather?

      19        A    I didn't think I was taking and chances.  I

      20   followed the letter of the injunction.

      21        Q    All right.  So, do I understand when you

      22   were transitting around that you never did turn your

      23   picket sign upside down?

      24        A    There may have been times that I did.  I

      25   didn't pay a lot of attention to what I did with my

.                                                                1044

       1   signs at one time or another when I was going from one

       2   place to another.

       3        Q    You saw the video of you in front of the

       4   Bank of Clearwater Building with your picket up,

       5   didn't you?

       6        A    Yeah, it was up around my shoulder.

       7        Q    Yeah.  It was up, wasn't it?

       8        A    I think it was.  I think the lady in front

       9   of me, Ms. Camburn too, was holding hers, Ida Camburn

      10   was holding hers up also, so I guess if holding up

      11   your sign is a sign that you're picketing then maybe

      12   Ms. Camburn just didn't meet the altitude requirement.

      13        Q    Did you look over the maps that were

      14   attached to the injunction?

      15        A    Yes, I did.

      16        Q    Did you note with regard the Coachman

      17   Building, arrows drawn toward the parking lot that

      18   says stay ten feet back from entranceways?

      19        A    Yeah, I noted that.

      20        Q    And when you were picketing over there along

      21   that parking area of the Coachman Building you were

      22   right in the -- you passed right in the middle of that

      23   driveway, didn't you?

      24        A    I passed through it, yes.

      25        Q    All right, with your picket sign up?

.                                                                1045

       1        A    I don't recall where it was then.  You know,

       2   I don't pay attention to where I have it when I'm

       3   transitting from one area to another.  It may have

       4   been.

       5        Q    You were picketing at that time with

       6   Mr. Minton and Mr. Lerma and Ms. Gogolla, was she

       7   along with you then?

       8        A    I had been picketing -- yeah, Ms. Gogolla

       9   was along.  Yeah, those are the people, but I had been

      10   picketing on the south side of the Coachman Building,

      11   the orange zone.

      12        Q    I'm asking you who you were with?

      13        A    Oh, Mr. Minton, Ms. Gogolla, I think

      14   Mr. Lerma was along that day.

      15        Q    And you participated with other members of

      16   the LMT and the picketing that weekend, didn't you?

      17        A    How do you mean other members of the LMT?

      18        Q    Well, the other people associated with the

      19   LMT.  Weren't you out picketing with them?

      20        A    How do you mean associated?

      21        Q    You don't understand the word associated

      22   with?

      23        A    I would just like clarification; who is

      24   associated or who is a member?

      25        Q    Connected in any fashion with the LMT?

.                                                                1046

       1        A    Mr. Minton is obviously connected with the

       2   LMT.  I consider the others that I probably picketed

       3   with that you just named are probably not members or

       4   associated with the LMT.

       5        Q    So as far as you know Mr. Minton is only

       6   person with the LMT that you picketed with and

       7   everybody else was disassociated with it?

       8        A    You say a member of.

       9        Q    I said connected with, associated with,

      10   affiliated with?

      11            MR. MERRETT:  I'm going to object and

      12       ask counsel to define the term, whether he

      13       means employees, stock holders, directors or

      14       if he just means people who like the LMT

      15       and don't like Scientology.

      16            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I use words that

      17       are pretty plain in their meaning in the

      18       English language.

      19            THE COURT:  I think a general English

      20       interpretation of those words were intended

      21       and I know that Mr. Enerson knows what they

      22       mean and I think I understand his answer.

      23   BY MR. POPE:

      24        Q    All right.  Now, Mr. Enerson, it's been

      25   established that you are the inventor, creator of the

.                                                                1047

       1   Penick Picket Pole here that's before us?

       2        A    That's correct.

       3        Q    You've talked about the purpose of the pole

       4   as being to give everybody a guise as to what ten feet

       5   amounted to, correct?  That was the main purpose of

       6   it?

       7        A    It serves that purpose, yes.

       8        Q    Is that the principle purpose you had in

       9   mind?

      10        A    Actually, yeah, that's where it started out.

      11   The idea was what is ten feet.

      12        Q    Okay.  What purpose does the horn serve on

      13   the thing?

      14        A    That serves to notify anybody that's

      15   approaching it.

      16        Q    So it's just like --

      17        A    Or if someone is approaching the end of it

      18   and you think they might run into it, to alert them.

      19        Q    What is the purpose of the injunction

      20   handing off the tip of it?

      21        A    That's what states ten feet.

      22        Q    Okay.  So it was -- you felt like you needed

      23   to show people what ten feet was and hang a copy of

      24   the injunction on so that they could understand why

      25   this was necessary; is what it?

.                                                                1048

       1        A    I guess if no one has read the injunction,

       2   they he could read it at a ten foot distance.

       3        Q    So you could dangle it front of their face

       4   and they could read it if they had any questions about

       5   it?

       6        A    Me?

       7        Q    Or whoever the user of the thing is?

       8        A    I didn't have any intent for a user to

       9   dangle, as you put it.

      10        Q    Let's go back.  Who did you intend to use

      11   this?

      12        A    Well, obviously injunction is bilateral, so

      13   anybody that's encroaching within ten feet.

      14        Q    Who is going to --

      15        A    -- that's bound by the injunction.

      16        Q    Who is going to be wielding the Penick

      17   Picket Pole?

      18        A    You know what.  Anybody who chooses to have

      19   a Threep can have a Threep.

      20        Q    Okay.  And did you make more than one of

      21   these?

      22        A    At this point, no, that's the prototype,

      23   Mr. Pope.

      24        Q    Okay, that's the prototype right there.

      25            THE COURT:  Let me stop you right there.

.                                                                1049

       1       You said that you conceived and produced the

       2       Threep.  What's your background?  How did

       3       you -- what do you do or what had you done in

       4       the past to give you this talent?

       5            MR. ENERSON:  I'm a mechanical design

       6       engineer, Your Honor.

       7            THE COURT:  You are?  That's what I

       8       thought you would say or something or you

       9       worked in Hollywood on props or something

      10       like that.

      11            MR. ENERSON:  No, I'm just a mechanical

      12       designer.

      13            THE COURT:  Do you have a mechanical

      14       degree?

      15            MR. ENERSON:  No, I don't.  I haven't

      16       finished my degree yet but I've been working

      17       in that for over 20 years.

      18            THE COURT:  Designing things?

      19            MR. ENERSON:  Aerospace engineering

      20       and --

      21            THE COURT:  Whoa, space engineering?

      22            MR. ENERSON:  Aerospace engineering and

      23       mechanical design engineering.

      24            THE COURT:  Where is your primary place

      25       of employment?

.                                                                1050

       1            MR. ENERSON:  I'm self-employed at this

       2       point right now.  I contract my services out

       3       for different companies that require

       4       mechanical design engineering.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  Where did you get the

       6       parts?

       7            MR. ENERSON:  Wal-Mart.

       8            THE COURT:  Really?

       9            MR. ENERSON:  Everything came from

      10       Wal-Mart.

      11            THE COURT:  How did you get ten feet of

      12       what?  What is all that?

      13            MR. ENERSON:  It's actually an

      14       extendable fishing pole.

      15            THE COURT:  That's an extendable fishing

      16       pole you get at Wal-Mart?

      17            MR. ENERSON:  Yes.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.

      19   BY MR. POPE:

      20        Q    And I suppose if you wanted to economize you

      21   could just gut up a bunch of lengths of ten foot cane

      22   pole and pass those out too if ten feet was your

      23   object, correct?

      24        A    I couldn't hazard to guess the price,

      25   Mr. Pope.

.                                                                1051

       1        Q    I didn't ask you to hazard to guess at the

       2   price.

       3        A    Well, you asked me if I was going to

       4   economize.  I don't know.  I didn't make a cost

       5   differential study of a cane pole versus what I built.

       6        Q    Wouldn't you suppose that a piece of cane

       7   pole is a little cheaper than this device you've got

       8   here?

       9        A    As I said, I haven't priced cane poles

      10   versus that.

      11        Q    You just don't have any idea, do you?

      12        A    Well, you know, to add everything to a cane

      13   pole that I h ave on that, I suppose, I don't know.

      14        Q    All right.

      15        A    Again, I would think that a cane pole by

      16   itself could be construed as a weapon and I certainly

      17   didn't want that to be in any way something that could

      18   harm someone, so I felt it necessary to add on all the

      19   other accustrements that you see on the Threep.

      20        Q    Do you understand, Mr. Enerson, why a

      21   reasonable person might conclude that there is

      22   ridicule and mockery built into your Penick Picket

      23   Pole?

      24        A    I don't thing a personable person would,

      25   Mr. Pope.  I think they see the humor in it.

.                                                                1052

       1        Q    This is simply a humorous joke; is that

       2   right?

       3        A    No, it serves the purpose of ten feet, but

       4   it also if you look at it it does look funny.

       5        Q    So it's a funny thing that serves a useful

       6   purpose?

       7        A    I think that's probably an apt description.

       8        Q    Okay.  Now, let's talk about the police

       9   incident on January 7.  You indicated that you had had

      10   a preliminary encounter with the police in which they

      11   made statements to you.  You were out there at the

      12   time with a megaphone, weren't you?

      13        A    Yes, I was.

      14        Q    And were you speaking and yelling through

      15   the megaphone at the time?

      16        A    Yes.  I was.  I was yelling no OTs there.

      17   David Miscavige is a squirrel, RTC is squirrelling the

      18   tech.  Compare the old volumes to the new.  Things of

      19   that nature.

      20        Q    How long had you been out there on Watterson

      21   Street yelling with your megaphone?

      22        A    Approximately -- well, to what point?

      23        Q    Before the episode with Mr. Minton began?

      24        A    Before the episode with Mr. Minton or the

      25   episode with the police officers?  With Mr. Minton,

.                                                                1053

       1   before the time I left and went back?

       2        Q    Yeah.

       3        A    I'm going to guess 10, 15 minutes maybe.

       4        Q    So you had been out there 10 or 15 minutes

       5   yelling through your megaphone and at that point the

       6   police made their remarks to you?

       7        A    Yeah, and my picket sign up too, with me.

       8        Q    Okay.  You were picketing and yelling

       9   through the megaphone.  At that time the police made

      10   their remark to you, right?

      11        A    Yeah.  Well, the first remark was probably

      12   about five minutes into it.  The second remark was

      13   maybe ten minutes into it.

      14        Q    And one of the remarks was that something to

      15   the effect that maybe we should try a noise ordinance

      16   violation?

      17        A    Yeah, that's correct.

      18        Q    Okay.  And you were at that time making

      19   noise through your megaphone, right?

      20        A    Not at the time he said that.

      21        Q    You had been up to point he said that?

      22        A    Up to that point, yes.

      23        Q    For ten or 15 minutes, right?

      24        A    Maybe ten minutes.

      25        Q    All right.

.                                                                1054

       1        A    But not constantly.  Just comments here and

       2   there.

       3        Q    And of course you didn't yell anything at

       4   all toward the police that was provocative, did you?

       5        A    No, I did not.

       6        Q    Okay.  Now, you went back and reported what

       7   the police said to Mr. Minton, correct?

       8        A    I think reported in kind of an incorrect

       9   characterization.

      10        Q    You told him about it?

      11        A    That's correct.

      12        Q    Is that better?  Is that more to your

      13   liking?

      14            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object to the

      15       argument and his tone and words.

      16            MR. POPE:  I think we get the --

      17            THE COURT:  Move to, move on, move on.

      18   BY MR. POPE:

      19        Q    You told Mr. Minton of what had happened,

      20   right?

      21        A    Yes, I met him walking south on the sidewalk

      22   and I was walking north and I said I was upset.

      23        Q    And he and you came back out onto Watterson,

      24   right?

      25        A    That's correct.  We were still on Watterson.

.                                                                1055

       1        Q    And he had his megaphone with him, right?

       2        A    I think he may have taken the megaphone that

       3   I had.

       4        Q    Did you get another one?

       5        A    I don't recall.  I think the megaphone was

       6   passed around between some people.

       7        Q    At any rate he had a megaphone at that time,

       8   right?

       9        A    I think so.

      10        Q    And he was yelling at the police telling

      11   them that they were agents of Scientology, correct?

      12        A    As he came down the sidewalk I think that

      13   the video shows that he did.

      14        Q    Right.  He was essentially with his

      15   megaphone, protesting their alleged connection with

      16   Scientology, wasn't he?

      17        A    I think he was protesting, yes.

      18        Q    And he then went out into the street,

      19   correct?

      20        A    To circle around the officers to stay ten

      21   feet away, yeah.

      22        Q    Went out into the street and all of a sudden

      23   this episode began between the officers and

      24   Mr. Minton, correct?

      25        A    That is correct.

.                                                                1056

       1        Q    And you yelled something along the lines of

       2   Bob, Bob, Bob, didn't you?

       3        A    As I was interceding when the officers got

       4   directly in Mr. Minton's face, almost nose to nose and

       5   was threatening Mr. Minton saying some things

       6   provocative to him, challenging him.  That's when I

       7   tried to intercede and just pull Bob away.

       8             I didn't know the officer's name or I would

       9   have spoken to him too, to put some distance between

      10   them and back off.

      11        Q    And was Mr. Minton by any chance saying

      12   anything provocative to the officer?

      13        A    I don't know what I would characterize as

      14   provocative.  He was only own saying, you know, you

      15   guys are working for Scientology.

      16        Q    So --

      17        A    If that's provocative to it, then --

      18        Q    So you would agree then that I think that

      19   the videotape of that transaction would probably be

      20   the best evidence of the exchange of words and events

      21   that occurred then, wouldn't you?

      22        A    Of that portion of it, probably.

      23        Q    Okay.  But you don't think, you don't recall

      24   as you sit here today that Mr. Minton said anything at

      25   all provocative to those police officers; is that

.                                                                1057

       1   correct?

       2        A    Well, it depends on what the officers

       3   considered provocative.  I mean my opinion was that I

       4   considered what the officers were saying the

       5   Mr. Minton to be extremely provocative.

       6        Q    Well, let's --

       7        A    And the tape doesn't catch that.

       8        Q    Let me ask you this.  Did you hear what

       9   Mr. Minton said to the officers?

      10        A    Yes, I did.

      11        Q    If he were right in your face saying that to

      12   you in anger would that provoke you?

      13        A    That I was an agent of Scientology?

      14        Q    No, no, no a little bit later on, out in the

      15   street, the profanity, the swearing, the F-word.  You

      16   heard that, didn't you?

      17        A    I've heard it.

      18        Q    Was that provocative to you if it were right

      19   in your face?

      20        A    I've had that in my face from Scientology,

      21   Mr. Pope.

      22        Q    Would you answer my question?  Did you

      23   consider it provocative when it came from the

      24   Scientologists?

      25        A    I considered it to be provocative, yeah, I

.                                                                1058

       1   guess I would.

       2        Q    Okay.  So would you concede that what

       3   Mr. Minton said to the police then was provocative?

       4        A    I'll concede that.  It's provocative.

       5        Q    All right.  Now, how many times have you

       6   picketed the Scientologists in Clearwater in the last

       7   year-and-a-half?

       8        A    Oh gosh, you know, I've have to estimate

       9   maybe 12, 15 times.  I'm going to guess.  I don't

      10   know.  I have counted actually.

      11        Q    And you live in Pasco County?

      12        A    Yes, I do.

      13        Q    That where you have your business?

      14        A    That's correct, my home.

      15        Q    So when you want to picket, what do you do,

      16   drive down to Clearwater to do it?

      17        A    Yes, I do.

      18        Q    When you come the Clearwater do you usually

      19   stop into the LMT before the picket?

      20        A    I haven't every time, but most of the time I

      21   stop in to see whose there.

      22        Q    And you usually stop in after the picket

      23   too, don't you?

      24        A    Yes, usually there's been occasion where

      25   I've brought sodas with me and left them in the

.                                                                1059

       1   refrigerator.  They let me chill those there or they

       2   will offer me something, drink of water of something.

       3        Q    And when you hae picket on those occasions

       4   have other people left the LMT Building with yo to go

       5   picket?

       6        A    Oh, yeah.

       7        Q    Okay.  So it's kind of a joint enterprise

       8   with you, correct?

       9        A    A joint enterprise?

      10        Q    Yeah, the go as a group to picket, correct?

      11        A    Well, yeah, there is a group of people that

      12   go as a group to picket, that's true.

      13        Q    You mentioned some expenses that had been

      14   reimbursed to you and I'm not sure I caught that.

      15   Could you tell me what expenses have been reimbursed

      16   to you by either LMT of Mr. Merrett?

      17        A    For some court exhibits for here.

      18        Q    For here?

      19        A    For this trial, yes.

      20        Q    Okay, and how many total dollars --

      21        A    I'm sorry -- yeah, for this trial here.

      22        Q    How many total dollars worth of exhibits or

      23   any dollars worth of reimbursement have you received

      24   either from LMT or Mr. Merrett?

      25        A    $80.

.                                                                1060

       1        Q    All right.

       2        A    That was expenditures that I made that they

       3   reimbursed me for.

       4            MR. POPE:  No further questions.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett.

       6                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       7   BY MR. MERRETT:

       8        Q    You were asked some questions about whether

       9   it was provocative to get in somebody's face cussing.

      10   Could you make it clear for the court who got in whose

      11   face that night on Watterson Street.

      12        A    It was Officer Harbert who got directly in

      13   Mr. Minton's face.

      14        Q    Did Mr. Minton at any time pursue or close

      15   with the officers?

      16        A    Actually, no, Mr. Minton was in the street.

      17   The officers came off the sidewalk toward Mr. Minton

      18   and got nose to nose with him.

      19            MR. MERRETT:  If I can have one second.

      20            THE COURT:  You may.

      21   BY MR. MERRETT:

      22        Q    You mentioned in response to one of

      23   Mr. Pope's questions that the video didn't catch what

      24   the police officers were saying to Mr. Minton.  What

      25   were they saying?

.                                                                1061

       1        A    Officer Harbert was in Mr. Minton's face

       2   saying something to the effect of touch me, go ahead

       3   and touch me.  I dare you.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

       5       anything further.

       6            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

       7            MR. HOWIE:  Nothing further, Your Honor.

       8            THE COURT:  All right.  Sir, you may

       9       step down and have a seat out there.

      10            Ladies and gentlemen, this is a real

      11        good time.  Let's break for lunch.  It's

      12        12:00 exactly.  Let's see you back here at

      13        1:30.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, may I make a

      15       request.  I'm afraid I don't know his name

      16       because I don't understand French inflection

      17       very well.  One of the French journalists has

      18       asked if it is permissible for them to

      19       interview Mr. Pesenti in the courtroom while

      20       the court is in recess.

      21            I told them obviously it is, as he

      22        appreciated, that it's the court's courtroom

      23        and that it's entirely up to you.

      24            THE COURT:  I'm concerned --

      25            MR. POPE:  We're all planning to leave

.                                                                1062

       1       our stuff in here and thought that the

       2       courtroom was going to be secured.

       3            THE COURT:  Yeah.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Is there maybe another --

       5            THE COURT:  There are empty courtrooms I

       6       can let him use.

       7            MR. MERRETT:  That would be wonderful.

       8            THE COURT:  Yah.  We can open up the one

       9       over here.  I'm sure it's totally empty.

      10       Nothing is going on.  It's a courtroom.

      11       We'll put the lights on and you cane

      12       interview him, okay.  This one we'll secure

      13       and formally let me say welcome to all of

      14       you, to him.  I wish somebody had introduced

      15       to me to Mr. Pesenti beforehand rather than

      16       letting me meet him the way I met him, but --

      17            MR. MERRETT:  That was m oversight, Your

      18       Honor, and I apologize to both of you.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay, but they're welcome.

      20       And, we'll open up another courtroom so they

      21       can do it.

      22            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you.

      23            THE COURT:  Now, remember if -- sir, in

      24       they get rough with you, I don't have

      25       anything to do with that.  I don't know how

.                                                                1063

       1       your press is.  The ones over here, you just

       2       don't talk to them.  Let's go ahead.

       3             (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken, after

       4        which the proceedings continued.)

       5                     End of Volume VIII