CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

                      IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
                          PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

                           CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

           ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida           
           ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL.,          

                 BEFORE:      The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

                 PLACE:        Pinellas County Judicial Building
                               545 First Avenue North
                               St. Petersburg, Florida

                 DATE:         February 15, 2001

                 TIME:         Commencing at 9:00 A.M.

                 REPORTED BY:  JACKIE L. OSTROM
                               Court Reporter

                            ORDERS TO SHOW CAUSE
                                                 Pages 796 - 939
                                                 Volume VII

                      ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
                                P.O. BOX 35
                            CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
                               (727) 443-0992



           The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

           911 Chestnut
           Clearwater, Florida

           3055 Whilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
           Los Angeles, California  90010

           Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship

           2716 Herschel Street
           Jacksonville, Florida  32205

           5720 Central Avenue
           St. Petersburg, Florida  33707

           Attorneys for Robert Minton and
           Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.

.                                                                798

       1                        PROCEEDINGS

       2            THE COURT:  Good afternoon, ladies and

       3       gentlemen.  We're back in case 99-7430 CI-08.

       4       And our case of the Church of Scientology

       5       Flag Service Organization, Inc., Petitioner

       6       versus Robert S. Minton, Jr. et al and when

       7       we left off last the arguments had been made

       8       for judgments of acquittal and those

       9       arguments were made at the close of the

      10       petitioner or prosecution case, if you want

      11       to call it that, and of course the rules that

      12       would apply and the law that applies is that

      13       of course at that point in time you take a

      14       look at the evidence and the testimony that's

      15       been presented and consider it in the light

      16       most favorable to the petitioner.

      17            Now, what I'll do is go down the

      18        arguments is they were made and then we will

      19        proceed from there.

      20            The first considerations, the first

      21        arguments that were made were

      22        originally -- there had been testimony

      23        presented on show causes on behalf of the

      24        defendants which were against the Church of

      25        Scientology and against, I believe it's

.                                                                799

       1        Judith Ross, and in those particular motions

       2        as to those particular defendants of the

       3        judgments acquittal, after considering what

       4        was presented and in light of all matters,

       5        those judgments of acquittal are granted.

       6            Now, going to the other side, we'll

       7        start with -- I'll go down particular

       8        defendants and the motions that were made.

       9            Going to the first amended consolidated

      10        order to show cause, paragraph 1A regarding

      11        Tory Bezazian picketing in a nondesignated

      12        picket area, the judgment for acquittal

      13        there denied.

      14            As to next, which would be Paragraph 1B

      15        of the original order to show cause

      16        allegations regarding Tory Bezazian sitting

      17        in the Santa Claus chair and walking on the

      18        sidewalk blocking Scientologists walking on

      19        the sidewalk, the judgment of acquittal as

      20        to those allegations, granted.

      21            As to Paragraph 1C, the Tory Bezazian

      22        picketing in the entrance to the parking lot

      23        blocking ingress and egress to that

      24        particular parking lot and picketing in

      25        front of the Clearwater Bank Building, the

.                                                                800

       1        motion for JOA as to those allegations,

       2        denied.

       3            Now, as to Mr. Henson, which is

       4        Paragraph 2 and 2A of that original show

       5        cause amended one, that on 4 January of the

       6        year 2001, as to Mr. Henson, the motion for

       7        judgment of acquittal is denied.

       8            Now, as to the next which would be

       9        Paragraph 3A, B, C and D.  All right, as to

      10        paragraph 3A which was the spy cameras it

      11        was referred to, as to the allegations in

      12        there regarding Minton and Merrett, the JOA

      13        a denied.

      14            As to the Ward, Prince, Keller, Bennett

      15        and Oliver, the JOA is granted.

      16            As far as the Merrett obstructing a

      17        process server and the allegations contained

      18        in that Paragraph D and the fact that

      19        allegedly that happened on December 1 and as

      20        you know the clarification regarding process

      21        servers was entered later in that day, that

      22        allegation in paragraph D, the JOA is

      23        granted.

      24            Now, Enerson, when we go there we

      25        switch.  We come over now to the order to

.                                                                801

       1        show cause regarding contempt of 10 January,

       2        2001.  Enerson in Paragraph 1A, picketed in

       3        an non-orange zone.  The judgment for

       4        acquittal is denied.

       5            Paragraph B, the allegations regarding

       6        Robert Minton resisting service of process,

       7        that's in Paragraph 2B, that occurred after

       8        December 1 of the year 2000 and that was

       9        actually on January 5 of the year 2001, and

      10        the JOA there is denied.

      11            As to the Paragraph C, the JOA regarding

      12        Mr. Minton, Mr. Enerson and Mr. Lerma, the

      13        JOA there on Paragraph C is granted.

      14            As to Paragraph D regarding the

      15        allegations of Minton, Enerson and Lerma and

      16        paragraph -- that also involves Gogolla

      17        also, that Paragraph D as far as any

      18        allegations in there regarding the

      19        megaphones, the JOA would be granted as far

      20        as any picketing or protesting, the JOA is

      21        denied.

      22            Paragraph E, regarding Minton, Enerson

      23        and Lerma with the megaphones and also the

      24        yelling and the honking of the horns, the

      25        JOA there is granted.

.                                                                802

       1            As far as Paragraph G with Lerma,

       2        Bezazian, Enerson, the JOA there is --

       3        excuse me.  Let me back up just a minute.

       4        I'm sorry.  Let me back up.

       5            Paragraph D, the picketing the JOA is

       6        denied, the megaphone it's granted.

       7            Now, Paragraph E, I'm going to come back

       8        to that one.

       9            Paragraph F, in Paragraph F that part

      10        involving Mr. Minton when he crossed across

      11        the street and was in the non-orange area

      12        and proceeded to walk thus north with the

      13        Three P up extending up to the second floor

      14        level in the windows, the JOA there is

      15        denied.  The rest of that particular

      16        paragraph, the JOA granted.

      17            As to paragraph G the JOA is granted.

      18            Paragraph H, the JOA is denied.

      19            Going back to paragraph E.  My question

      20        with Paragraph E and the question in front

      21        of the Ft. Harrison property, was that in

      22        the orange or non-orange?

      23            MR. MERRETT:  Orange.

      24            MR. POPE:  Orange.

      25            THE COURT:  The JOA is granted.  Thank

.                                                                803

       1       you, gentleman.

       2            All right.  Now that according to my

       3        calculations that covers everything.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       5            THE COURT:  Now, do you all want a few

       6       minutes to figure out what I said?

       7            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir, that would be

       8       helpful.

       9            THE COURT:  Will 15 be sufficient?

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      11            THE COURT:  All right.  I'll tell you

      12       what I'll do.  We will take a 15 minute

      13       recess minimum.  Give all the attorneys a

      14       chance to map out what I've said and get a

      15       picture of exactly what I've said and where

      16       we're going from.

      17            All right.  Thank you all very much.

      18             (A short recess took place after which the

      19        proceedings continued.)

      20            THE COURT:  All right.  Attorneys, I

      21       gave you a chance to take a look at it and

      22       are we ready to proceed?

      23            MR. MERRETT:  We are, Your Honor.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Pope, you had

      25       something, sir.

.                                                                804

       1            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, we had filed a

       2       motion in limine with respect to the proof

       3       that is getting ready to be offered this

       4       afternoon and I would like to ask Ms. Kobrin

       5       to present a brief argument to the court on

       6       that if, you will permit it.

       7            THE COURT:  Let me see where we're at.

       8       You're asking for the court to consider your

       9       motion in limine at this time?

      10            MR. POPE:  Yes.  I am, Your Honor.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  And we're moving to strike

      12       the motion in limine as grossly untimely.

      13       This matter was to have been concluded Sunday

      14       afternoon, four days ago.  Presumably,

      15       Scientology could have made whatever

      16       predictions they were going to make regarding

      17       evidence in anticipation of the trial as

      18       originally schedule.  Motions in limine are

      19       properly taken prior the opening of evidence

      20       in the case.  This is abusive, it's tardy,

      21       it's inappropriate to bring at this time.

      22            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, we didn't know

      23       until the conclusion of evidence on Tuesday

      24       that they were going to put on any evidence

      25       at all.  I mean, they've got a right, as you

.                                                                805

       1       know, to sit there say and nothing.  And we

       2       didn't know what they were going to do until

       3       Mr. Merrett announced on Tuesday that he had

       4       considerable evidence that he was going to

       5       put on and that caused, since it was

       6       considerable evidence, it seemed to us it was

       7       going to involve a whole lot of extraneous

       8       matters and we filed a motion arguing quite a

       9       bit of law relative to the First Amendment,

      10       Church/State issues and that sort of thing

      11       and we think ought to be able to allowed to

      12       present it at this time.

      13            MR. HOWIE:  May it please the court,

      14       Mr. Minton does join in the motion to strike.

      15            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, thank you, sir.

      16       I'm sorry I didn't give you an opportunity.

      17            MR. HOWIE:  That's fine.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, can I add one

      19       thing?

      20            THE COURT:  Yeah.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  I don't think you can rule

      22       in vacuo.  There are significant distinctions

      23       what RTC or Scientology, whoever they are

      24       today, filed.  It's a scatter shot approach

      25       that seems to suggest that they are of the

.                                                                806

       1       opinion that because they claim to be a

       2       religion, none of their corporate policies

       3       are subject to being adduced in court, which

       4       is clearly not the point.

       5            They obviously, whatever other claims

       6        they may make don't know exactly what

       7        evidence is to be presented.

       8            In addition to its being untimely, it

       9        will amount to a waste of judicial time

      10        because neither the court nor Scientology

      11        can predict what's going to be presented.

      12            I realize that what they want to do is

      13        give you a lengthy tirade about being an

      14        oppressed religious minority, but the fact

      15        is we're here dealing with evidence relating

      16        to a corporate party who is the proponent of

      17        the charges in this case.

      18            THE COURT:  Well, a couple of things

      19       occurred to me of which I'm mindful that I

      20       had said that I wanted all motions argued and

      21       put to rest before we started to take any

      22       testimony and then suddenly here come this

      23       motion.  And then my concern was that in

      24       looking at it that would it really be an

      25       issue, but I think that if it would help cut

.                                                                807

       1       down any questions on either side as to what

       2       would or would not be presented, I think that

       3       since we're moving over now in the defense

       4       side, I know that maybe you could expedite or

       5       let them know that this or that is not or

       6       will not come up.  But, besides doing that,

       7       the -- what I'm concerned about is I'm going

       8       to get barraged with 20 million objections

       9       constantly and we're not going to be able to

      10       move forward unless we address this thing.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  I can tell you, Your

      12       Honor, you're not going to be called upon to

      13       decide on the truth or falsity of any

      14       so-called religious beliefs.  We're not going

      15       to ask you to decide whether any given

      16       proposition made by Mr. Hubbard is factual or

      17       not which seems to be the thrust of their

      18       motion and certainly the thrust of the law

      19       with respect to the wall separation between

      20       church and state as regards to court matters.

      21            THE COURT:  Does that help?

      22            MR. POPE:  Not particularly, Your Honor.

      23       To me, what we tried to do in the motion for

      24       limine was set forth the broad law that is

      25       going do have to apply to this matter and to

.                                                                808

       1       me it would be helpful on the front end to at

       2       least present this to the court so that you

       3       know where we're coming from too because of

       4       the exact problem you mentioned and that is

       5       the barrage of objections.

       6            I don't like to stand up and interrupt

       7        counsel's examination of witnesses all the

       8        time, but, you know, we may just put in the

       9        position of having to do that and so I

      10        viewed this as a helpful matter that would

      11        wind up saving us time instead of

      12        squandering it.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, I just have to

      14       point out in calculated time if you want to

      15       sit down and start reading what has been

      16       presented and delivered now, I think we would

      17       be through the end of the day if you just

      18       read the document that Scientology dumped on

      19       everybody on the eleventh hour so I don't

      20       know that that can necessarily be taken as

      21       gospel, not to interject religion into the

      22       proceeding.

      23            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, if I may.

      24            THE COURT:  You may.

      25            MR. HOWIE:  In support of the motion to

.                                                                809

       1       strike I point out that 90.611 is a fairly

       2       limited applicability and only goes to the

       3       issue of presenting evidence to either

       4       challenge of question the credibility of a

       5       witness, it is strictly in a rule of

       6       impeachment and as a rule of impeachment it

       7       will be fairly clear if a matter of religion

       8       is being used to impeach a witness who is

       9       actually on the stand, that is subject to

      10       objection pursuant to 90.611.

      11            It's an objection that was raised from

      12        time to time as we go through the

      13        proceedings without undue delay.

      14            I don't think we need a major motion in

      15        limine and I'm concerned the motion in

      16        limine goes far field of 90.611 and will

      17        attempt to exclude all aspects, all issues

      18        concerning religion.

      19            I would point out that Aliazar in his

      20        commentary on 90.611 points out that

      21        although religious beliefs cannot be used to

      22        either bolster or challenge the credibility

      23        of the witness, they can come in for any

      24        other relative purpose and my concern in

      25        joining with this motion to strike is that

.                                                                810

       1        the petitioner is going to be arguing that

       2        matters of religion cannot come in for any

       3        purpose whatsoever, not even to show bias or

       4        prejudice of a witness as opposed to

       5        credibility.

       6            A fine line, but a line none the less.

       7        The court can make on that ad hoc basis ask

       8        question that are asked of these witnesses.

       9            Now, I certainly don't intend to

      10        challenge the reliability or credibility of

      11        any witness based on religious belief and I

      12        don't believe Mr. Merrett intends to either

      13        that's why we are moving to strike this

      14        because we think that this can be handled on

      15        an objection by objection basis without

      16        undue delay.

      17            THE COURT:  We're going to get going and

      18       I'll handle it on an objection by objection

      19       basis and it looks like that the court is

      20       going to have to address it, we'll do it

      21       tomorrow morning, but I'm going to get

      22       started today and if it doesn't become an

      23       issue today, at least it will give the

      24       attorneys an opportunity to look at it

      25       tonight and then you can -- I don't know how

.                                                                811

       1       long you've had it for a very short period or

       2       time.

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, for the record

       4       it was faxed to me about starting 4:47

       5       yesterday afternoon.  I did not receive the

       6       case law on it until it was couriered to me

       7       approximately two hours ago.

       8            THE COURT:  Thank you.  Frankly, I'm not

       9       ready to proceed on it either.

      10            MR. POPE:  Your Honor --

      11            THE COURT:  So tomorrow morning would be

      12       the soonest that I -- and we'll go otherwise

      13       and you can preserve objections.  If we get

      14       into a sticky wicket, we'll stop at that time

      15       and see what we do, okay.

      16            MR. POPE:  Fine.

      17            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I have one

      18       side matter if the court would explain to

      19       many of these people, particular the

      20       witnesses, that it is a wise idea to hesitate

      21       before answering so that an objection can be

      22       interposed without killing the court

      23       reporter.

      24            THE COURT:  I think you did a brilliant

      25       job of that.

.                                                                812

       1            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you, Your Honor.

       2            THE COURT:  Anybody have any questions

       3       about what he said?  We'll move on.

       4            All right.  Now that we move over to the

       5        other side, Mr. Merrett, sir, you want to

       6        cal your first witness?

       7            Wait a minute.  Let's going how we're

       8        going to do this.  This is interesting,

       9        Mr. Howie and Mr. Merrett, did you flip a

      10        coin?  How are we going to do this.

      11        Mr. Howie?

      12            MR. HOWIE:  I am always willing to defer

      13       to Mr. Merrett since he often speaks for me.

      14            THE COURT:  I've noticed you speak for

      15       him sometimes too and I just wondered since

      16       Mr. Minton's name was first on the defense

      17       list or defendants, I didn't know whether you

      18       have planned to go first.

      19            MR. HOWIE:  No, I will defer to

      20       Mr. Merrett if he is anxious and ready to go.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  But Merrett comes before

      22       Minton alphabetically.  I'm also a defendant

      23       and if we move clockwise we come to me first

      24       anyway.

      25            THE COURT:  Let's proceed.  Let's

.                                                                813

       1       proceed.

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Call Keith Henson.

       3            THE COURT:  I've sworn him previously.

       4       I'm going to keep you under that same oath.

       5            Ladies and gentlemen, I assume that the

       6        people who in the courtroom today, remember

       7        we have talked time and again about that

       8        chair being bolted down.  They didn't unbolt

       9        it last night and everyone is going to get

      10        in there and you're still going to try to

      11        move it forward and you're going to come

      12        forward so don't strain your back.  Let's

      13        move on.  Let's proceed.

      14                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      15   BY MR. MERRETT:

      16        Q    Thank you, Your Honor.  Tell us your name,

      17   sir?

      18        A    Howard Keith Henson, but I usually go by

      19   Keith Henson.

      20        Q    Where do you live?

      21        A    Palo Alto, California.

      22        Q    How long have you lived out there?

      23        A    In Palo Alto or California?

      24        Q    In California.

      25        A    15 years.

.                                                                814

       1        Q    Did you have occasion to be in Clearwater

       2   back the first weekend of December of 2000?

       3        A    Yes, I did.

       4        Q    Can you tell the court how you got here?

       5        A    I flew here.

       6        Q    And was that on your own nickel or did

       7   somebody pay for that for you?

       8        A    No, Ida Camburn from Hemet, California paid

       9   for it.

      10        Q    Is she a friend of yours?

      11        A    She is a person I met relatively recently,

      12   but, yes, I consider her a friend.

      13        Q    What was your purpose for coming to

      14   Clearwater that weekend?

      15        A    The annual Lisa McPherson Protest Picket.

      16        Q    And when you say Lisa McPherson protest,

      17   what do you mean?

      18        A    Well, for many years there has been a

      19   protest here over the gruesome death of Lisa McPherson

      20   who was held in the hands of the Scientologists.

      21        Q    And when you said for many years, over how

      22   many years?

      23        A    At least several.  It's been -- I'm not

      24   really good at keeping track of the time on that, but

      25   I've been here three or four times on this.

.                                                                815

       1        Q    Okay.  Let me ask you this.  Were there

       2   pickets here regarding the death of Lisa McPherson,

       3   here being in Clearwater, before the Lisa McPherson

       4   Trust was started?

       5        A    Long before; several years.

       6        Q    Okay.  Now, was this to have been the first

       7   time you picket Scientology?

       8        A    No.

       9        Q    Can you tell the court about how many times

      10   you have picketed Scientology?

      11        A    Something between 200 and 300 times.

      12        Q    Now, with this weekend, the first weekend in

      13   December, was that the last time that you picketed

      14   Scientology?

      15        A    No.

      16        Q    Okay.  How many times have you picketed

      17   Scientology since that weekend?

      18        A    Seven or eight times; maybe nine.

      19        Q    So we can safely assume that prior to the

      20   first weekend of December 2000 you had picketed

      21   Scientology over 200 times?

      22        A    Oh, easily.

      23        Q    Okay.  Now, can you tell the court if you

      24   know Bob Minton?

      25        A    Yes.

.                                                                816

       1        Q    How long have you known Bob Minton?

       2        A    I'm not exactly sure, but it was sometime in

       3   1996 when I became aware of Bob Minton.

       4        Q    Had you picketed Scientology before becoming

       5   aware of Bob Minton?

       6        A    Many times.

       7        Q    When you say many times, can you give the

       8   court an idea how many times?

       9        A    40 or 50.

      10        Q    Now, did you at one time or do you have any

      11   kind of official connection with the Lisa McPherson

      12   Trust?

      13        A    I had an entirely nominal connection as an

      14   advisor.

      15        Q    What does that mean?

      16        A    I don't know.

      17        Q    Okay.  Were you listed on the brochure as a

      18   member of the advisory board?

      19        A    I don't know.

      20        Q    Okay.  Did you ever attend any meetings of

      21   the advisory board?

      22        A    No.

      23        Q    Do you know that there were any meetings?

      24        A    I never received notice of any.

      25        Q    Were you ever asked to perform any services

.                                                                817

       1   or provide anything in your capacity as an advisor?

       2        A    No.

       3        Q    Okay.  Can you tell the court what day you

       4   arrived in the Tampa Bay area in preparation for the

       5   picket over the first weekend of December?

       6        A    Without consulting the ticket, probably not,

       7   but it was a day or two before the picket started.

       8        Q    Okay.

       9        A    29th or 30th; I think the evening of the

      10   29th.

      11        Q    Okay.  Did you meet any people that you

      12   expected to be here?

      13        A    Yes, quite a few of them.

      14        Q    Okay.  Did you have occasion at any time

      15   between arriving here in Clearwater and December 1 to

      16   make any announcements regarding your status as a

      17   member of the advisory board?

      18        A    Yes.

      19        Q    When and where did that happen?

      20        A    At a restaurant the first day I was here,

      21   the restaurant next to the LMT.

      22        Q    Ottavio's?

      23        A    Ottavio's.

      24        Q    What was your announcement?

      25        A    That I resigned from it.

.                                                                818

       1        Q    Okay.  Why did you do that?

       2        A    I didn't want to cause the Lisa McPherson

       3   Trust any problems.

       4        Q    Had you ever received any compensation for

       5   your service or non-service as a member of advisory

       6   board?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    And to whom did you announce your

       9   resignation?

      10        A    To Stacy Brooks and to several other of the

      11   office staff of the LMT and I believe I announced it

      12   to you as well.

      13        Q    Okay.  Was this something that you did

      14   angrily or was it just a business-like announcement?

      15        A    Business-like.

      16        Q    Okay.  Do you recall having received any

      17   suggestion or advice from me or from anybody else

      18   connected with the LMT regarding picketing and where

      19   you should picket and what you should do?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    What was the advice?

      22        A    The advice was to consider myself covered

      23   with it, by the picket, by the thing and or possibly

      24   covered and to stay within the rules that the picket,

      25   that the injunction rules.

.                                                                819

       1        Q    Did you do that initially?

       2        A    No.

       3        Q    Why not?

       4        A    Because I believed very, very strongly that

       5   I was not covered by the injunction.

       6        Q    Why did you believe that?

       7        A    Careful reading of the injunction to me

       8   indicated that it covered only people who were

       9   associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust in some

      10   official capacity, for example being employees of it.

      11        Q    Uh-huh.  Okay.

      12        A    At least that was my reading of it.

      13        Q    Now, I want to slow down and proceed

      14   chronologically.  Were you present in court when a

      15   videotape was played that appeared or showed

      16   Mr. Minton giving currency to you and another man?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    Now, that was on November 30, right?

      19        A    I think so.  I'm not sure.

      20        Q    Okay.  Can you tell the court what became of

      21   the cash Mr. Minton gave you on that videotape?

      22        A    Yes.

      23        Q    What became of it?

      24        A    I gave it back to him.

      25        Q    What was the point of the exercise that we

.                                                                820

       1   saw on the videotape?

       2        A    It was as you so well put it, to yank

       3   Antonio's chain.

       4        Q    And by doing what?  What was the reference?

       5        A    Street theater.

       6            THE COURT:  Was what, I'm sorry?

       7            MR. HENSON:  Street theater.

       8            THE COURT:  Street theater?

       9            MR. HENSON:  The Scientologists are

      10       always making the point on the postings on

      11       the internet that Mr. Minton pays for all of

      12       the picketing that's done and, of course,

      13       that's not true.

      14   BY MR. MERRETT:

      15        Q    Is that what it refers to?

      16        A    Yes.

      17        Q    Let me ask you if during your present visit

      18   to Clearwater or to the Clearwater area if there has

      19   been a similar episode of street theater?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    And when did that occur?

      22        A    Out back of the Lisa McPherson Trust in view

      23   of the spy camera.

      24        Q    When?

      25        A    The night before that photograph was

.                                                                821

       1   introduced here.

       2        Q    Okay, so it this past week?

       3        A    I guess it would have been Sunday evening.

       4        Q    Okay.  What did you and Mr. Minton do?

       5        A    Mr. Minton gave me a rather large wad of

       6   several different kinds of foreign currency, pounds

       7   and marks and French francs I think, but I really

       8   didn't look at it.

       9        Q    What became of that money?

      10        A    We had dinner that night and I fished it all

      11   out of the pocket of this particular coat and gave it

      12   back to Mr. Minton.

      13        Q    Okay.  So during the weekend of December or

      14   the first weekend in December, that time period, were

      15   you being paid by Mr. Minton or anybody else to

      16   picket?

      17        A    No.

      18        Q    Was anyone other than Ida Camburn

      19   contributing to your transportation, maintenance and

      20   upkeep?

      21        A    No.

      22        Q    Does Mrs. Camburn have any connection with

      23   the Lisa McPherson Trust?

      24        A    Not that I know of.

      25        Q    Okay.  Now, you said that you resigned from

.                                                                822

       1   the advisory board and some people made some

       2   suggestions about where to picket and you went in and

       3   picketed under the assumption that you were not

       4   covered by the injunction.  Can you tell Judge Penick

       5   where you went to picket?

       6        A    Yes, in front of the Ft. Harrison where I

       7   had picketed several times before.

       8        Q    When you say several --

       9        A    In previous years.

      10        Q    Okay.  You're talking about the sidewalk

      11   immediately in front of the building?

      12        A    Correct.

      13        Q    How long did you picket out there?

      14        A    Well, I'm not certain on this.  I believe I

      15   picketed the previous day, as well.

      16        Q    Uh-huh.

      17        A    Which would have been November 30.

      18        Q    Okay.

      19        A    That was before the injunction came out.

      20        Q    Okay.  After the injunction came out, how

      21   long did you picket in front of the Ft. Harrison?

      22        A    I don't really know.  Perhaps four hours

      23   that day.

      24        Q    Okay.  Now.  You heard testimony from

      25   Lindsey Colton about attempting to serve you; do you

.                                                                823

       1   recall that?

       2        A    That's true.

       3        Q    And is it correct that you dash across the

       4   street and back across the street and what not?

       5        A    Yes, I've done that a number of times being

       6   chased by Scientologists in other cities.

       7        Q    Where did the injunction that she was

       8   attempting to serve on you end up?

       9        A    In the intersection on the northeast corner

      10   of -- I'm sorry, I don't remember the street.  It's

      11   the north side of the Ft. Harrison.

      12        Q    Pierce?

      13        A    Pierce, it was on the intersection up there.

      14        Q    Pierce and Ft. Harrison?

      15        A    Yes.

      16        Q    Okay.  When this copy of the injunction

      17   landed in the street, did you do anything in

      18   particular?

      19        A    Yes, I did.

      20        Q    What was that?

      21        A    I called the police.

      22        Q    Why?

      23        A    Littering.

      24        Q    Did the police respond?

      25        A    Yes, they did.

.                                                                824

       1        Q    Did a policeman come out there?

       2        A    Yes, he did.

       3        Q    Did you talk to him?

       4        A    Yes, I did.

       5        Q    What did you tell him?

       6        A    Well, I told what was going on and it seemed

       7   that the injunction had been intensely discussed among

       8   the police department, as well.

       9        Q    Did the policeman give you any instructions

      10   or make any requests at that time?

      11        A    No.  I asked the policeman what the

      12   consensus was at the police department about this,

      13   namely --

      14            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.  He's

      15       getting into hearsay.

      16            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      17            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, if I may, at

      18       this point he's telling you what he asked the

      19       policeman, not what the policeman said.

      20            THE COURT:  All right.  Let me hear what

      21       he says and then we'll see.

      22   BY MR. MERRETT:

      23        Q    What I want you to do right now is just

      24   finish your question to the policeman.  What did you

      25   ask him?

.                                                                825

       1        A    My question to the policeman was, I

       2   explained a little bit about my position and that I

       3   was not an employee of the Lisa McPherson Trust and in

       4   fact was a visitor from California and I asked the

       5   policeman what, if he felt that I was covered by the

       6   injunction.

       7        Q    Okay.

       8        A    The policeman then told me --

       9            MR. POPE:  Objection.

      10            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, it goes to the

      12       state of mind.  Intent is an element of the

      13       offense.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  I'll let it go.

      15   BY MR. MERRETT:

      16        Q    What did the policeman tell you at that

      17   point.

      18        A    The policeman told me that the injunction

      19   had been intensely discussed among the police and they

      20   felt that it only applied to people that were

      21   employees of the LMT.

      22        Q    Okay.  And did he give you any particular

      23   mandate or valediction?

      24        A    Well, he said that I could picket wherever I

      25   wanted and to have fun.

.                                                                826

       1        Q    Did you go do that?

       2        A    Yes, indeed.

       3        Q    Where did you go picket at that point?

       4        A    A number of places, but mostly in front of

       5   the -- well, in front of the Lisa McPherson Trust and

       6   down by the Sand Castle and across from the Coachman

       7   Building and various other places around town.

       8        Q    Did there come a time after that that you

       9   had another conversation with a policeman?

      10        A    That sure was.

      11        Q    Was that that same day?

      12        A    Yes, it was.

      13        Q    What was subject and listen carefully to my

      14   question, what was the subject of the discussion with

      15   the police on that second time?

      16        A    The subject of the conversation at that time

      17   which is actually on videotape, was that the police

      18   reconsidered or --

      19        Q    Not --

      20            MR. POPE:  Objection.  Same objection.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  I'll come back around at

      22       it another way, Your Honor, and give

      23       everybody a wave of a flag before --

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  Let's see what

      25       happens.

.                                                                827

       1   BY MR. MERRETT:

       2        Q    I'm not asking what he told you.

       3        A    Okay.

       4        Q    The subject matter was where people could

       5   picket, right?

       6        A    Yes.

       7        Q    Okay.  Now --

       8        A    -- and who it applied to.

       9        Q    Okay.  And now for state of mind and don't

      10   answer this question.  Let's wait and let Mr. Pope

      11   interpose his objection, being offered to show

      12   Mr. Henson's state of mind at that point, the question

      13   is what did the officer tell you?  Now just wait.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.

      15            MR. POPE:  Same objection, and in

      16       addition of that the policeman was not

      17       identified in any way.  I don't think the

      18       date and time has been stated.  There is

      19       simply not enough particularity.  This is

      20       vague.

      21            THE COURT:  Lack of predicate.

      22   BY MR. MERRETT:

      23        Q    Okay.  Approximately when did this occur?

      24        A    It was close to dark that day.  It was

      25   certain twilight.

.                                                                828

       1        Q    On December 1?

       2        A    On December 1.

       3        Q    And do you recall the policeman's name?

       4        A    I actually wrote a note about in at that

       5   time, but I have not reviewed the note.

       6        Q    Do you have your notes with you?

       7        A    No, I don't.  I'm sorry.

       8        Q    How did you know this was a policeman?

       9        A    He and the other four or five policemen that

      10   were standing around were in uniforms.

      11        Q    Okay.  And the question then is what did he

      12   tell you was different about picketing and who is

      13   applied to?

      14            MR. POPE:  Same objection, Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Same ruling.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Same ruling, overruled

      17       because it a state of mind?

      18            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      19   BY MR. MERRETT:

      20        Q    What did he tell you?

      21        A    He advised me that we probably shouldn't

      22   picket there.

      23        Q    There being where?

      24        A    Any of the people who were not associated

      25   with the Lisa McPherson Trust might be covered by it.

.                                                                829

       1   He was unsure.

       2        Q    Uh-huh.

       3        A    But he did say that they decided that

       4   anybody who picketed after being notified by the

       5   police on the subject they would take reports although

       6   they wouldn't arrest anybody and make police reports

       7   on it.

       8        Q    Okay.  Is it correct that the policeman

       9   essentially told you that it might very well apply to

      10   you?

      11        A    In essence, yes.

      12        Q    And what, if anything, did you do different

      13   as a result of police officer telling you that?

      14        A    I abided by the injunction, though I did

      15   state that I was doing so under protest.

      16        Q    Did you, after the policeman, after the

      17   second conversation with the policeman when he told

      18   you that the injunction might cover you, did you again

      19   picket or protest outside an orange zone?

      20        A    To the best of my knowledge, no.

      21        Q    Okay.  The videotapes that were entered in

      22   evidence during Scientology's case in chief, were all

      23   of the events prior to this conversation with the

      24   police?

      25        A    Yes.

.                                                                830

       1        Q    Okay.  Now, Ms. Colton testified that you

       2   were passing out flyers.  Do you recall passing out

       3   flyers?

       4        A    Yes.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Now, my I approach the

       6       witness, Your Honor?

       7            THE COURT:  You may.

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    Let me ask you if you recognize this

      10   document as being a copy of the flyer that you were

      11   passing out that weekend?

      12        A    Yes.

      13        Q    And what is the flyer about?

      14        A    Xenu.

      15            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  And, Your Honor, I

      16       would tender this as I don't know what the

      17       number would be?

      18            THE COURT:  I think it's your number

      19       five.

      20            MR. POPE:  My objection is to relevance,

      21       Your Honor.

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.  Just a second.  Let

      23       me do something else.

      24            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the relevance

      25       objection is that the issue as to this

.                                                                831

       1       defendant is picketing in a prohibited zone

       2       and that particular document doesn't prove or

       3       disprove any aspect of that.

       4            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, it does

       6       however go to the issue of his connection

       7       with the Lisa McPherson Trust which is an

       8       element to his defense.  His lack of

       9       connection we will be able to demonstrate

      10       that that document is not just not a Lisa

      11       McPherson Trust document but it is not of a

      12       category of the documents that the Trust

      13       disseminates.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  Objection is

      15       overruled.  Proceed.  It will be received as

      16       Defendant LMT's Exhibit Number Five.  Please

      17       proceed.

      18   BY MR. MERRETT:

      19        Q    Thank you.  Can you tell the court

      20   Mr. Henson where you got the Xenu flyer?

      21        A    Yes, I printed it from the net.

      22        Q    From the internet?

      23        A    Yes.

      24        Q    Does to your knowledge the Lisa McPherson

      25   Trust distribute any Xenu material?

.                                                                832

       1        A    They did not at that time.  I'm sure of

       2   that.

       3        Q    Okay.  Was there ever a time during your

       4   visit to Clearwater that first weekend of December,

       5   2000 that you picketed or protested in a forbidden

       6   area when you believed that the injunction applied to

       7   you?

       8        A    No.  I still don't believe the injunction

       9   applies to me.

      10        Q    But since the policeman's opinion or

      11   statement to you, you've confined yourself to the

      12   orange zones when in Clearwater?

      13        A    Yes.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  I don't have anything

      15       further, Your Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      17            MR. HOWIE:  I don't have any questions,

      18       Your Honor.

      19            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      20                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      21   BY MR. POPE:

      22        Q    Yes, Your Honor.  May I examine the witness

      23   from here, Your Honor?

      24            THE COURT:  You may, sir.


.                                                                833

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    All right.  Mr. Henson, I believe you

       3   testified that one of the first things that happened

       4   when you went to town was that you came up to

       5   Clearwater was that you carefully reviewed a copy of

       6   the injunction; is that correct?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    You did say, did you not, that at some point

       9   in time you carefully reviewed a copy of the

      10   injunction?

      11        A    Yes, I did.

      12        Q    All right.  When was it you did that?

      13        A    After I had talked to the police the second

      14   time and the evening of the December 1.

      15        Q    So before November 30 or before the evening

      16   of December 1 you did not review the terms of the

      17   injunction?

      18        A    That's correct.

      19        Q    All right.  And so the first time you saw

      20   the injunction was after you had picketed in front of

      21   the Ft. Harrison, is that your testimony?

      22        A    Certainly, yes.  It would have -- I may have

      23   seen the outside of one of them, but I did not look at

      24   the contents of it.

      25        Q    Do you remember sending a letter to the

.                                                                834

       1   court addressed to John Merrett care of Judge Penick

       2   and the fax date on it is January 19, 01 12:23 PM;

       3   remember sending that letter?

       4        A    I suspect that fax date may be off, but I'm

       5   not almost certain that that's not a correct date.

       6        Q    What was the date you sent this to Judge

       7   Penick?

       8        A    It probably would have been a day or two

       9   before, January 12.

      10        Q    All right.  At the bottom of your letter

      11   it's signed in Palo Alto, California, January 10,

      12   2001?

      13        A    Yes, that would have been the date I sent

      14   it.

      15        Q    All right.  Let me -- this letter is in

      16   evidence.  Let me read the fourth paragraph.

      17            THE COURT:  Let me hand him this to him,

      18       Mr. Pope, so he can read along.

      19            MR. POPE:  That's fine.

      20            THE COURT:  Sir.

      21            MR. HENSON:  Yes, I've got it.

      22            THE COURT:  You have a copy?

      23            MR. HENSON:  Yes, sir.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.


.                                                                835

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    In that fourth paragraph the states I made

       3   my choices of where and when to picket over the

       4   objection of Mr. Merrett who was at the LMT at that

       5   time and suggested that I abide by the terms of the

       6   injunction.  You wrote that, didn't you?

       7        A    Read the next sentence, please?

       8        Q    Answer my first question first?

       9        A    Did I write this?

      10        Q    Yes.

      11        A    Certainly.  I signed it.

      12        Q    Okay.  I pointed out to Mr. Merrett that I

      13   resigned from the entirely nominal position of advisor

      14   prior to doing any picketing and was therefore not

      15   affiliated with the Trust in any way.

      16             Now, at the time you made your choices of

      17   where and when to picket, you had had a discussion

      18   with Mr. Merrett about it, hadn't you?

      19        A    No.

      20        Q    You say you made your choices where and when

      21   to picket over the objection of Mr. Merrett?

      22        A    I didn't discuss it with him.

      23        Q    How do you know, he made an objection to

      24   you?

      25        A    He made an objection to me without me saying

.                                                                836

       1   anything to him at all.

       2        Q    What did he tell you?

       3        A    He told me that it would probably be prudent

       4   to obey the terms of the injunction.

       5        Q    Had you seen the injunction at that time?

       6        A    No.

       7        Q    Did you --

       8        A    Correction.  I had seen the outside of the

       9   copy of the injunction.

      10        Q    Did you inquire of Mr. Merrett at that time

      11   as to what the terms of the injunction were?

      12        A    No.

      13        Q    So you just -- he said it would probably be

      14   prudent for you to obey it and you basically said I'm

      15   going to do what I want to do and ignore his

      16   objection; is that correct?

      17        A    My argument that is --

      18        Q    Is that correct, sir?

      19        A    Excuse me?  Repeat the question.

      20        Q    All right.  He told you that it would be

      21   prudent for you to follow the terms of the injunction,

      22   correct?

      23        A    Told is a little bit strong.  Suggested

      24   might --

      25        Q    He suggested, okay.  And then you did not

.                                                                837

       1   ask him what the terms of the injunction were,

       2   correct?

       3        A    I may have known some of the general aspects

       4   of the terms of the injunction, because --

       5        Q    And then you decided that you simply weren't

       6   going to follow this suggestion that Mr. Merrett made

       7   to you; is that correct?

       8        A    I stated once I didn't believe that it

       9   applied to me.

      10        Q    Is that correct?  You had concluded without

      11   reading its terms or discussing it with Mr. Merrett

      12   that it did not apply to you; is that correct?

      13        A    I believe that I had heard the terms of it

      14   and the terms of the things seemed to apply only to

      15   people who were employees of the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      16        Q    So you decided to go out on the street and

      17   picket where you wanted to and take your chances,

      18   correct?

      19        A    That is correct.

      20        Q    All right.  Now, I noticed in here, in your

      21   letter here that is dated January 10, and it may have

      22   been sent a few days afterwards --

      23        A    No.

      24        Q    There is no mention of any conversations

      25   with the police in this letter that you're writing to

.                                                                838

       1   the court to explain why you did what you did.  There

       2   is no mention in here whatever of any discussions you

       3   had with the police, which you today have told us is

       4   the reason you did what you did; isn't what true?

       5        A    Excuse me?

       6        Q    Do you see any mention in here of your

       7   conversations with the police officers who told you

       8   that it was okay for you to picket in front of the

       9   Ft. Harrison?

      10        A    I don't know understand the point.

      11        Q    Listen --

      12            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object, Your Honor.

      13       The document speaks for itself.

      14            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Proceed.

      15   BY MR. POPE:

      16        Q    Mr. Henson, you make no mention in this

      17   letter of any conversation with a police officer

      18   telling you that it was okay to picket; isn't that

      19   true?

      20        A    I don't make mention of all the other

      21   thousands of conversations that went on in those days.

      22        Q    Is that true, Mr. Henson?

      23        A    Is certainly is, but I believe at the time I

      24   made a net posting which mentions it.

      25        Q    All right.  What you dwell on in your letter

.                                                                839

       1   is that you're not affiliated with the LMT, correct?

       2        A    That was my belief.

       3        Q    Okay.  Now hasn't, in the last several years

       4   hasn't Mr. Minton given you at least $26,000 in a

       5   couple payments, one of $25,000 and one of $1,000?

       6        A    No.

       7        Q    Has he given you any money at all in the

       8   last three years?

       9        A    Several years ago I believe he gave me

      10   $1,000.

      11        Q    $1,000?

      12        A    Yes.

      13        Q    What was the purpose of that?

      14        A    It was a gift.  I don't remember exactly

      15   when it was.

      16        Q    Was it a gift to assist you in

      17   anti-Scientology activities?

      18        A    Not exactly.  It was a gift that was to help

      19   me pay things like mortgage payments and food at a

      20   time when Scientology had pretty much kept me out of

      21   work for a long time.

      22        Q    Let me phrase the question this way about

      23   the $25,000.  Didn't he pay $25,000 in legal fees to

      24   your attorneys?

      25        A    He paid $25,000 in legal fees to the

.                                                                840

       1   attorney's Mesick, Feeler and Garrett (sic) out in Los

       2   Angeles.

       3        Q    In what case?

       4        A    In -- there were four cases that they had

       5   against me at the time, so I'm not sure which one it

       6   got spent on.

       7        Q    Four cases against you arising out of how

       8   many hundred episodes of anti-Scientology activities?

       9        A    Excuse me?

      10        Q    You testified on your direct that you had

      11   engaged in picketing and protesting of the

      12   Scientologists, as I recall, several hundred times; is

      13   that correct?

      14        A    Well, between two and three hundred,

      15   probably.

      16        Q    Two and three hundred times, right.  And as

      17   a consequence of that you've gotten involved in four

      18   lawsuits; is that correct?

      19        A    I think it's actually eight or nine.

      20        Q    One of those lawsuits, the religious

      21   technology, RTC which is a Scientology corporation,

      22   sued you for copyright infringement, didn't it?

      23        A    Yes, they did.

      24        Q    They got about a $75,000 federal court

      25   judgment against you for that, didn't they?

.                                                                841

       1            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object to relevance.

       2            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       3   BY MR. POPE:

       4        Q    Isn't that correct?

       5        A    They did.  I was attempting to expose

       6   Scientology's criminal activities at the time very

       7   similar to the criminal activities that they engaged

       8   in to kill Lisa McPherson.

       9            MR. POPE:  And I move to strike that,

      10       Your Honor.  Move to strike the reference to

      11       criminal activities to kill Lisa McPherson.

      12            THE COURT:  Sustained.

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    So you were attempting to expose criminal

      15   activities and you wound up having a $75,000 judgment

      16   entered against you in a federal court in California?

      17        A    I sure did.

      18        Q    And you had a contempt order in that same

      19   court, didn't you?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Relevance.

      21            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      22            THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.

      23   BY MR. POPE:

      24        Q    All right.  You've also had an injunction

      25   entered against you in that same court, haven't you?

.                                                                842

       1        A    Yes.

       2        Q    All right.  Did that injunction in federal

       3   court enjoin you and all other persons in active

       4   concert or participation with you from doing certain

       5   items?

       6            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Relevance.

       7            MR. POPE:  Dealing with the same

       8       language --

       9            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      10   BY MR. POPE:

      11        Q    Did it?

      12        A    No.

      13        Q    All right.

      14        A    Do you want me to explain why the answer was

      15   no?

      16        Q    I'll ask you my next question, sir.  Now,

      17   you do concede that up to the point of your

      18   resignation from LMT you were shown as an advisory

      19   committee member?

      20        A    I don't know.

      21        Q    Let me show you the brochure from the Lisa

      22   McPherson Trust.  May I approach the witness?

      23            THE COURT:  You may.

      24   BY MR. POPE:

      25        Q    Would you just take a look at that,

.                                                                843

       1   Mr. Henson?

       2             (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.)

       3        A    Okay.

       4        Q    Had you seen that before?

       5        A    No.

       6        Q    That is your name on there, isn't it?

       7        A    That's true.

       8        Q    And it has Ida Camburn's name on it as well?

       9        A    That's true.

      10        Q    Is she the person that's financed some of

      11   your Scientology picketing activities?

      12        A    She paid my way out here in December.

      13        Q    Who paid your way this time?

      14        A    Mr. Merrett.

      15        Q    Okay.  Now, you were in the courtroom, I

      16   believe, when Lindsey Colton, the process server,

      17   testified, weren't you, Mr. Henson?

      18        A    Yes, I was.

      19        Q    And you heard her say that when she

      20   approached, didn't you, you said you have to stay ten

      21   feet away from me.  You're violating the ten foot

      22   rule.  You said that to her, didn't you?

      23        A    I believe I did.

      24        Q    Okay.  So, as of the time she was trying to

      25   serve you with an injunction you knew that there was a

.                                                                844

       1   ten foot rule in there, correct?

       2        A    I thought it applied to picketers in

       3   general.

       4        Q    And you sought the protection of that rule.

       5   You told her to stay at least ten feet away.  You

       6   wanted the benefit of the part of injunction, didn't

       7   you?

       8        A    I certainly was tired of her whacking me on

       9   the back with it.

      10        Q    Okay.  So you wanted the protection that

      11   that injunction offered you to keep her ten feet away,

      12   didn't you?

      13        A    I'm sorry, I don't quite understand the

      14   concept here.

      15        Q    You invoked the protection of the ten foot

      16   rule of the injunction to keep her at a ten foot

      17   distance from you, didn't you, sir?

      18        A    Come to think of it that was before the

      19   judge had ruled that the process servers were exempt,

      20   so I guess she was violating it if I was.

      21        Q    Let's see if I can get you to answer my

      22   question.  Did you not in your comment to Ms. Colton

      23   invoke the protection of the ten foot rule of that

      24   injunction?

      25            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Asked and

.                                                                845

       1       answered.

       2            MR. POPE:  Asked and evaded is more like

       3       it, Your Honor.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, if I may, he said

       5       yes, I did tell her to keep ten feet away.

       6            THE COURT:  Is that your answer?

       7            MR. HENSON:  Yes.

       8            THE COURT:  Proceed.

       9   BY MR. POPE:

      10        Q    All right.  Now, at the time that this joke

      11   occurred with Mr. Minton handing you cash; remember

      12   that event?

      13        A    Yes.

      14        Q    You and Mr. Minton together were picketing

      15   in front of the Ft. Harrison, weren't you?

      16        A    I don't believe so.

      17        Q    You don't remember that the photograph shows

      18   you holding a picket?

      19        A    Yes.

      20        Q    Doesn't it show Mr. Minton holding a picket

      21   too?

      22        A    I don't believe it does.

      23        Q    Who is the third person with you?

      24        A    Bob Clark.  But I might add, Mr. Minton was

      25   not holding a picket sign.  He wasn't picketing.

.                                                                846

       1        Q    You would agree that the videotape of the

       2   event would probably be the best evidence of that,

       3   wouldn't you?

       4        A    Certainly, but it's very difficult to be

       5   handing out cash encumbered with a picket sign.

       6        Q    When you came to town and was that on

       7   November 30 or was it before?

       8        A    I believe I came in late on the 29th, but

       9   I'm not certain.

      10        Q    When was the first time you went to the

      11   offices of the LMT at 33 North Ft. Harrison?

      12        A    Probably the next day.

      13        Q    Who did you meet there?

      14        A    I don't remember all the people.  There was

      15   a bunch of them.

      16        Q    Did you get your picket there, your picket

      17   sign you were going to carry?

      18        A    No.

      19        Q    Where did you get it?

      20        A    Um, we assembled those around back of the

      21   Ft. Harrison if I remember correctly.

      22        Q    Who is the we who assembled them?

      23        A    I don't remember everybody that was involved

      24   in this.  It was quite a crowd of people.

      25        Q    It was a crowd of people including a number

.                                                                847

       1   of representatives of the LMT, wasn't it?

       2        A    I don't know.  I don't actually know whether

       3   there were LMT representatives there or not.

       4        Q    So you gathered with a crowd of people and

       5   picket signs were passed out on that day, the 30th of

       6   November?

       7            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Assuming facts

       8       not in evidence.  The testimony was they were

       9       assembled, not they were passed out.

      10            THE COURT:  Sustained.  Rephrase your

      11       question.

      12   BY MR. POPE:

      13        Q    I will.  You assembled with a group of

      14   people behind the Ft. Harrison Hotel, is that you told

      15   us?

      16        A    I believe that's where it was.

      17        Q    At that time there were pickets available,

      18   correct?

      19        A    I'm trying to remember exactly on that.  I

      20   believe from looking at the photographs and the other

      21   stuff there that I had borrowed Arnie Lerma's sign to

      22   picket on the 30th of November.

      23        Q    So --

      24        A    The on the first of November I believe that

      25   I had another sign that was made from materials in

.                                                                848

       1   back that we assembled in back of the Ft. Harrison,

       2   but I'm not sure about this.

       3        Q    You didn't bring these picket signs with you

       4   on the plane, did you?

       5        A    No, I didn't.  I usually -- I very often do,

       6   but I didn't this time.

       7        Q    This time you got them from someone after

       8   you arrived in Clearwater?

       9        A    Well, no.

      10        Q    No?

      11        A    In fact I made about -- if I remember

      12   correctly, I made personally and paid for them myself

      13   about a half a dozen picket signs.  You can tell the

      14   ones that are mine that I was making because they have

      15   about two inch letters and are made by running a

      16   master through a 400 percent expansion machine at

      17   Kinko's.

      18        Q    Did you give some of these that you made to

      19   other persons?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    Who received them?

      22        A    I don't remember.

      23        Q    Were they affiliated with the LMT?

      24        A    I'm not sure.  They might have been.

      25            MR. POPE:  May I have a moment, Your

.                                                                849

       1       Honor.

       2            THE COURT:  You have it.

       3             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       4        place.)

       5            MR. POPE:  May I show this to

       6       Mr. Merrett?  I'm showing him the photographs

       7       here.

       8            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

       9            MR. POPE:  May I approach the witness,

      10       Your Honor?

      11            THE COURT:  You may, sir.

      12   BY MR. POPE:

      13        Q    Let me show you these two photographs,

      14   Mr. Henson, and tell me if you can identify those.

      15        A    Yes.

      16        Q    Are those photographs of you picketing in

      17   California?

      18        A    Yes, they are.

      19        Q    And what is the telephone number on your

      20   picket there?

      21        A    The LMT number.

      22        Q    In Florida?

      23        A    That's true.

      24            MR. POPE:  Thank you.  Your Honor, he's

      25       identified these things now.  I'd offer them

.                                                                850

       1       into evidence out of time.

       2            THE COURT:  Out of time depends on what

       3       does the other side say?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  I object only as to

       5       relevance, Your Honor.

       6            MR. HOWIE:  Join, Your Honor.

       7            THE COURT:  All right.  As to the

       8       objection as to relevance, overruled.  They

       9       can be admitted.

      10            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

      11       Honor.

      12            THE COURT:  All right.  Bear with me

      13       just a minute while I get this in evidence.

      14             (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15

      15        was admitted into evidence.)

      16            All right.  It's in evidence here,

      17        Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 15 and I will

      18        call this a composite.

      19            MR. POPE:  Okay.

      20            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, you want to go?

      21            MR. HOWIE:  Nothing further, Your Honor.

      22            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett?

      23            MR. MERRETT:  Briefly, Your Honor.

      24            THE COURT:  All right.


.                                                                851

       1                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. MERRETT:

       3        Q    Mr. Henson, the copyright infringement, you

       4   started to explain that.  What were the materials in

       5   question.

       6        A    NOTs 34.

       7        Q    What is NOTs 34?

       8        A    It's a description of --

       9            MS. KOBRIN:  Objection, Your Honor.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I have to

      11       object.  Only one attorney is allowed to

      12       handle each witness under the local rules.

      13            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, is there an

      14       objection on the table?

      15            MR. POPE:  Let me hear what he's got to

      16       say a little bit more before I object, Your

      17       Honor.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.

      19   BY MR. MERRETT:

      20        Q    What is NOTs 34?

      21        A    It is a secret document of Scientology.

      22            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, we're getting now

      23       into the completely irrelevant matter dealing

      24       with religious beliefs of these folks.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  In that case I would move

.                                                                852

       1       to strike Mr. Pope's questioning regarding

       2       the copyright matter and that he be

       3       sanctioned for raising irrelevant matters.

       4            MR. POPE:  The judgment by the

       5       California court against Mr. Henson goes to

       6       his credibility and his prejudice.

       7            THE COURT:  Objection overruled.

       8       Proceed.

       9   BY MR. MERRETT:

      10        Q    What are they about?

      11        A    They are about the illegal practices of

      12   medicine by curing with an E-meter --

      13            MS. KOBRIN:  Objection, Your Honor.

      14            MR. POPE:  Let me do this.  Judge, this

      15       doesn't have a thing to do with the issue of

      16       whether Mr. Henson did what he did on the

      17       streets of Clearwater.

      18            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett, anything you

      19       want to add?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Simply that he asked about

      21       the copyright infringement.  This is the

      22       subject matter of the alleged copyright

      23       infringement.

      24            MR. HENSON:  I was cut off before I

      25       finished the answer.

.                                                                853

       1            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the only

       2       pertinence of the copyright infringement is

       3       that a judgment was entered and a contempt

       4       order was entered and it goes to the witness'

       5       prejudice and his bias and credibility.

       6            THE COURT:  I understand where we're at

       7       on this and I think that I understand the

       8       points being made is credibility.  I'll

       9       sustain at this point.  Go on to something

      10       else.

      11   BY MR. MERRETT:

      12        Q    Now, the issue has been raised regarding the

      13   bias presumably against Scientology.  Does your bias

      14   against Scientology arise from the copyright

      15   infringement judgment?

      16        A    No.

      17        Q    Does any bias you have against Scientology

      18   arise from the contempt order that was supposedly

      19   entered?

      20        A    No.

      21        Q    Can you explain to court the basis and

      22   origin of your bias against Scientology?

      23        A    The actions of Helena Kobrin.

      24        Q    In what respect?

      25        A    Her attempt to destroy a news group on the

.                                                                854

       1   internet, use net hierarchy called

       2   Alt.Religion.Scientology.

       3        Q    And tell the court what you're talking about

       4   there?  First off, what is Alt.Religion.Scientology?

       5        A    Well, it's a news group.  It's the

       6   equivalent of a bulletin board but a worldwide

       7   implementation of it.  It's distributed.  It is the

       8   modern equivalent of a newspaper really.

       9        Q    And is this a deal where anybody who wants

      10   to can post a statement in an area and then anybody

      11   else can look at over the internet?

      12        A    Right, and comment on it as well.

      13        Q    You mentioned some action that Ms. Kobrin

      14   took regarding Alt.Religion.Scientology.  What was

      15   that?

      16        A    Is it okay if I explain it by analogy?

      17        Q    Well, tell us as directly as you can without

      18   analogy what it is that you did that led to your bias

      19   and concern with Scientology?

      20        A    She issued a privileged command or had a

      21   cause to the issue over her name a privileged command

      22   called and RM Group.

      23        Q    And what is the effect of the issuance of

      24   the RM Group?

      25        A    On news services that configured to accept

.                                                                855

       1   it, what an RM Group does is delete every file within

       2   that particular news group and then delete the news

       3   group itself.

       4        Q    So it basically closes down and destroys the

       5   news group?

       6        A    Correct.  After that no one that is

       7   connected with that machine can read that news group

       8   until it is reinstated with a new group command.

       9        Q    And what was the basis by which Ms. Kobrin

      10   presumed to do this?

      11        A    I'm sorry, it is one of those kind of things

      12   that I have no idea why she decided to do something so

      13   foolish.

      14        Q    Well, let me ask you this.  Did

      15   Alt.Religion.Scientology die as a result of

      16   Ms. Kobrin's stroke?

      17        A    It had exactly the opposite effect.

      18        Q    What happened?

      19        A    She enraged people the world over because by

      20   analogy it was the effect of gang of thugs riding into

      21   a small Midwestern town a hundred years ago and

      22   burning down the newspaper.

      23        Q    And people responded how?

      24        A    They were annoyed.  They were extremely

      25   annoyed.  In fact they were enraged.

.                                                                856

       1            MR. POPE:  Excuse me, Your Honor.  We're

       2       way far field from any probative value of any

       3       issue at this moment.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  I'll catch us up, Your

       5       Honor.

       6            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's see where

       7       we go.

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    You said that your personal animus against

      10   and concern about Church of Scientology had it's

      11   origin Kobrin's attempt to destroy

      12   Alt.Religion.Scientology.  Was there anything else,

      13   any other basis for your animus?

      14        A    Initially, no.

      15        Q    Subsequent to that?

      16        A    Plenty.

      17        Q    What?

      18        A    Shortly thereafter they pulled --

      19            MR. POPE:  Excuse me, Your Honor.  The

      20       witness has admitted that he is

      21       anti-Scientology.  He doesn't have to sit

      22       here and regale us with tales of why it is

      23       so.  He's admitted that he has a prejudice

      24       against them and it's irrelevant why.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  That's not exactly true,

.                                                                857

       1       Your Honor.  An unreasoning prejudice goes to

       2       credibility whereas a prejudice which is

       3       backed up by reason, by actions on the part

       4       of the party against whom the prejudice is

       5       held strikes far less boldly against one's

       6       credibility.

       7            THE COURT:  Proceed.

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    What else was there?

      10        A    Oh, it's an extremely long list.  The more

      11   recent kinds of things are the two woman that they

      12   killed in California.

      13        Q    Uh-huh.

      14        A    There has just been enumerable actions that

      15   they have pulled.  That actions against Mark Bunker.

      16   They filed false charges against Mark Bunker in

      17   Chicago.

      18        Q    What happened with those?

      19            MR. POPE:  Excuse me, Your Honor.  He's

      20       talking about charges filed against someone

      21       other than himself.  That can only be based

      22       on hearsay.

      23            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett?

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, what he's

      25       testifying about is the reason for his

.                                                                858

       1       prejudice against Scientology.  It's not

       2       offered necessarily for the truth of the

       3       matter asserted.

       4            THE COURT:  I think you've established

       5       that he definitely is not promoting

       6       Scientology.

       7            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       8            THE COURT:  And as far as you know

       9       having to get into the nitty-gritty of

      10       whatever happened up in Chicago, he's laid it

      11       out sufficiently that he was upset about

      12       false charges against somebody somewhere that

      13       were filed by Scientology.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  I'll wrap it up, Your

      15       Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  All right.

      17   BY MR. MERRETT:

      18        Q    Let me ask you this, Mr. Henson.  The Helena

      19   Kobrin that you've been referring to, is she here

      20   today?

      21        A    Yes.

      22        Q    Where is she?

      23        A    Right there.

      24        Q    Okay.  The attorney sitting next to

      25   Mr. Pope?

.                                                                859

       1        A    That's correct.

       2        Q    Okay.  Would it be fair to say that any

       3   disdain or hostility that you have towards Scientology

       4   doesn't arise out of their beliefs, but rather their

       5   practices?

       6        A    That's absolutely correct.

       7        Q    Okay.

       8        A    There is no one that I dislike because of

       9   themselves.  It's what they do, what the policy has

      10   them do.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you.

      12            THE COURT:  Let me -- just a minute.  I

      13       want to see if I've got -- I want to clarify

      14       something just a minute.

      15       Alt.Religion,Scientology was something that

      16       was founded other than by the Church?

      17            MR. HENSON:  Yes.

      18            THE COURT:  And that's a chat room or a

      19       news type service on the internet that

      20       anti-Scientologists can go to and post stuff,

      21       or was?

      22            MR. HENSON:  It is today.  In facts it's

      23       the most popular news group on the net.

      24            THE COURT:  It exists today?

      25            MR. HENSON:  Oh, yes.  The destruction

.                                                                860

       1       was reversed.  In fact, I had never read it

       2       before that day.

       3            It's very difficult to describe it.

       4        It's kind of like a letters to the editor

       5        only strung out endless letters to the

       6        editor and with automated machinery which

       7        takes care of distributing it.

       8            When you post you have readers, you have

       9        devices that you read these things and then

      10        you post, particularly on the thread that

      11        already exists, but you can also start a new

      12        thread with these strings of messages.

      13        They're called threads and what it amounts

      14        to is that it provides something which is

      15        something between letters to the editor and

      16        a bulletin board where people will stick a

      17        message on it and somebody else quote part

      18        of that message and stick another message on

      19        it and then stick another -- people will

      20        quote from that one and then will just wind

      21        with these huge tree structure.  I've seen

      22        some postings that had as many as 100 or 200

      23        people that have followed up on a particular

      24        topic of interest making comments on.

      25            It is very, very widely used.  It's

.                                                                861

       1        actually quite old.  It dates back to --

       2        I've been posting on the net using that

       3        mechanism for almost 15 years and it is an

       4        older method than the web pages that people

       5        use now days although there are web page

       6        readers that read these news grouping that

       7        are out there.

       8            THE COURT:  How do you find them?

       9            MR. HENSON:  Typically, you go using a

      10       news reader or it used to be that you could

      11       use several if the news services, one called

      12       Deja News which just got shut down.  Another

      13       web service bought it and it's very hard to

      14       use at the moment.

      15            They a haven't got it worked out, but

      16        you can go back into there and read postings

      17        that a particular person like myself have

      18        made going back for a couple of years and

      19        there is a fascinating amount of stuff.

      20            The new people that have bought the Deja

      21        archives have explained that they're going

      22        to out it all back up and clear back to

      23        where they're talking about 500 Terabytes of

      24        material out there.

      25            THE COURT:  But it's not a WWW dot

.                                                                862

       1       something.

       2            MR. HENSON:  WWWW.DEJA.EWS.

       3            THE COURT:  Do that again for me.

       4            MR. HENSON:  DEJA.COM.

       5            THE COURT:  That gets you to the --

       6            MR. HENSON:  Right.

       7            THE COURT:  Now, you're telling me that

       8       the lady that you identified issued some sort

       9       and RM Group command that wiped out anything

      10       that said anything about Scientology?

      11            MR. HENSON:  It had that attempt.  I

      12       wasn't reading the news group at the time.  I

      13       was reading I believe the news group called

      14       Comp.Org.EFF.Talk which is a free speech news

      15       group and of course a massive attack on free

      16       speech because that's what this was viewed as

      17       was crossed posted across hundreds of related

      18       type news groups.  There is 15,000 or 20,000

      19       news groups out there and it's amazing.

      20            I post sometimes to Sci.Krionics and I

      21        post occasionally to another one called

      22 where I have a

      23        voice of caution.

      24            THE COURT:  You have a voice of caution?

      25            MR. HENSON:  I am a voice of caution.  I

.                                                                863

       1       tell people that if they want to make things

       2       that go boom you have to be careful so you

       3       don't get yourself hurt with them.

       4            THE COURT:  So you don't do them?

       5            MR. HENSON:  In my misspent youth, Your

       6       Honor, I did an awful lot of that, however

       7       you may note that I can count all my fingers.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  But,

       9       getting back here, then this thing

      10       which -- this is the reason though, one of

      11       the reasons why you feel that you need to

      12       voice your opinion against the Church, their

      13       closing down the news?

      14            MR. HENSON:  That was only the initial

      15       reason, Your Honor.  After that it with one

      16       outrage after another.

      17            The thing, for example, the letter that

      18        I wrote to a judge that got me in all the

      19        trouble with the copyright business was a

      20        matter that I pointed out that this was

      21        basically a criminal instruction manual and

      22        that further it was heading in and enjoined

      23        them from them making such claims by Judge

      24        Casels (sic) some years before in another

      25        case.

.                                                                864

       1            THE COURT:  What are you talking about,

       2       what manual?

       3            MR. HENSON:  NOTs, spelled N-O-T, all

       4       capitals, small s.  It's a short thing for

       5       New Era Dianetics for operating --

       6            THE COURT:  N-O-T-S 34?

       7            MR. HENSON:  Yes.

       8            THE COURT:  And that's that secret

       9       document that you were talking about?

      10            MR. HENSON:  Right.

      11            THE COURT:  And you wrote a judge about

      12       that?

      13            MR. HENSON:  Yes, I did.

      14            THE COURT:  Then you got sued because yo

      15       wrote a judge?

      16            MR. HENSON:  Yes.

      17            THE COURT:  Was this a federal or state

      18       judge?

      19            MR. HENSON:  Federal judge.

      20            THE COURT:  And was it made part of a

      21       public file or something or I mean was this

      22       just a gratuitous letter to the judge

      23       or -- well, I don't want to get into that.

      24       That's all right.  I'm sorry.

      25            MR. HENSON:  It can all be found if you

.                                                                865

       1       go into the GOOGLE search engine.

       2            THE COURT:  Who?

       3            MR. HENSON:  WWW.GOOGLE.COM.

       4            THE COURT:  G-O-O-G-L-E dot COM?

       5            MR. HENSON:  Dot COM.

       6            THE COURT:  And look for what?

       7            MR. HENSON:  If you put my name and

       8       Scientology into that search window that

       9       comes up, what you want to look for is the

      10       window and if you hit the return key you

      11       would get I suspect more than 2,000 web sites

      12       that discuss me.

      13            Within the first page of that you should

      14        find a site by Ron Neuman and the text of

      15        the letter that I wrote is there.

      16            The copyrighted material is clipped out

      17        of that, but it too can be found on the web

      18        site of WWW.XENU(X-E-N-U).Net.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Now,

      20       having done that I will go back.

      21       Mr. Merrett, you may ask questions.

      22   BY MR. MERRETT:

      23        Q    Just briefly.  As far as accessing those

      24   news groups, can you access them off of Internet

      25   Explorer just by clicking news under the mail drop

.                                                                866

       1   down.

       2        A    I think you can.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you.

       4            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

       5            MR. HOWIE:  No questions, Your Honor.

       6       Mr Pope.

       7            MR. POPE:  I have one area in inquiry.

       8            THE COURT:  Go ahead, sir.

       9                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION

      10   BY MR. POPE:

      11        Q    Mr. Henson, if I heard you a few minutes

      12   ago, you made a reference to things that go boom?

      13        A    Yes.

      14        Q    Were you talking about bombs?

      15        A    And fireworks and other things that go boom.

      16        Q    Okay.  Including bombs, is that what your

      17   reference was to?

      18        A    Technically speaking, no.

      19        Q    Don't you currently face criminal charges in

      20   the State of California arising out of the terrorist

      21   threat law in the State of California?

      22            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Relevance.

      23            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, if I may,

      25       pending criminal charges are not relevant to

.                                                                867

       1       credibility.

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

       3            MR. POPE:  They're certainly relevant to

       4       the prejudice.

       5            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       6            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, objection on the

       7       grounds of 90.404(2).

       8            THE COURT:  Well, that -- yeah.  Okay.

       9       Now, wait a minute.  Good point.  Interesting

      10       point.  But, Mr. Howie, it's interesting from

      11       this prospective.

      12            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, they have to

      13       establish relevance through plan, motive,

      14       intent, scheme and motis aparendi.  There is

      15       no predicate for that.

      16            MR. POPE:  He opened to door to bombs,

      17       Your Honor.

      18            THE COURT:  I understand that and that's

      19       the a point that I'm pondering.

      20            MR. HENSON:  Your Honor, I don't mind

      21       talking about this.  I'd be glad to give the

      22       full tale of it.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, the record can

      24       reflect that I've turned my meter off for the

      25       ensuing answer.

.                                                                868

       1            THE COURT:  Click.

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Go ahead.

       3   BY MR. POPE:

       4        Q    My question simply was, don't you face

       5   criminal charges by the State of California currently

       6   relative to terrorist threats?

       7        A    Misdemeanor terrorism.

       8        Q    Are you set for trial in this matter?

       9        A    At the moment, April 16.

      10            MR. POPE:  That's the only question I

      11       have.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, your meter is

      13       still running.  So you have anything?

      14            MR. HOWIE:  No, Your Honor, nothing.

      15            THE COURT:  All right.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I do have

      17       something.

      18            THE COURT:  I was going to say you back

      19       on the clock?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      21            THE COURT:  Okay.

      22                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

      23   BY MR. MERRETT:

      24        Q    The business about these charges, does that

      25   relate to Scientology claiming they think you're going

.                                                                869

       1   to lob an ICBM into their compound in Hemet?

       2        A    Yes.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

       4       anything further.

       5            THE COURT:  Compound where?

       6            MR. MERRETT:  In Hemet, California.

       7            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  Anything

       8       else?

       9            MR. POPE:  No, Your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Sir, you may step down and

      11       have a seat back out there.

      12            Ladies and gentlemen, we've been going

      13        about an hour.  Let's take a 15 minute

      14        break.  Thank you.

      15             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      16        which the proceedings continued.)

      17            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett, you ready to

      18       call your next witness?

      19            MR. MERRETT:  Rob Keller.







.                                                                870

       1   Thereupon:

       2                       ROBERT KELLER

       3   was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was

       4   examined and testified as follows:

       5                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

       6   BY MR. MERRETT:

       7        Q    Would you state your name please, sir.

       8        A    Robert Keller.

       9        Q    And where do you live, Mr. Keller?

      10        A    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

      11        Q    And what do you do for a living?

      12        A    I'm a web designer.

      13        Q    What does that mean?

      14        A    I design web pages and back end interfaces

      15   for business applications for people who want to get

      16   information off the internet.

      17        Q    Do you have any connection with what is

      18   sometimes known as the critical movement regarding

      19   Scientology?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    How long have you been a critic of

      22   Scientology?

      23        A    Probably since 1993.

      24        Q    Okay.  Did you have occasion to be in

      25   Clearwater over the first weekend in December, 2000?

.                                                                871

       1        A    Yes.

       2        Q    What was the purpose for your presence in

       3   town?

       4        A    It was the annual Lisa McPherson protest.

       5        Q    And were you here to participate in that

       6   protest?

       7        A    I was.

       8        Q    Let me ask you if on December 4, 2000 you

       9   were present at the premises of the Lisa McPherson

      10   Trust?

      11        A    Yes.

      12        Q    Did you take photographs before and during

      13   the events that were testified to concerning the spy

      14   camera mounted at the rat bait billing?

      15        A    Yes.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, may I approach

      17       the witness?

      18            THE COURT:  You may, sir.

      19            MR. MERRETT:  I've previously showed

      20       these to Mr. Pope.

      21            THE COURT:  All right.

      22   BY MR. MERRETT:

      23        Q    I'm showing you first as a composite, three

      24   photographs.  Now, I suggest you take a look at them

      25   for a moment and then I will ask you to tell us a

.                                                                872

       1   little bit about them.

       2        A    Okay.

       3        Q    Are those photographs that you took?

       4        A    Yes.

       5        Q    Are they in fact an original and then two

       6   progressive enlargements of the same photograph?

       7        A    Yes.

       8        Q    And when was that photograph taken in

       9   relation to me and Mr. Minton handling the spy camera

      10   on December 4.

      11        A    It was taken before there was any handling

      12   of the camera.

      13        Q    Do those photographs fairly and accurately

      14   represent the condition and the positioning of the

      15   camera prior to time that anybody touched it or

      16   handled it?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    Now, is the box, that junction box that the

      19   spy cameras are in, previously marked as exhibit two

      20   for identification or an example has been previously

      21   marked, is that painted?

      22        A    Yes.

      23        Q    And is it painted to match one of the

      24   buildings?

      25        A    Yes.

.                                                                873

       1        Q    Which building?

       2        A    The rat bait building.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would tender

       4       this exhibit as a composite, I think it would

       5       be our number four or five?

       6            THE COURT:  I believe it will be number

       7       five.

       8            MR. POPE:  I have no objection, Your

       9       Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, you have any

      11       objection?

      12            MR. HOWIE:  No, objection, Your Honor.

      13            THE COURT:  Bear with me please.

      14            Proceed.

      15            MR. MERRETT:  May I approach the witness

      16       again?

      17            THE COURT:  You may.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  I'm sorry, Judge.  What

      19       was the number of that exhibit?

      20            THE COURT:  Five.

      21   BY MR. MERRETT:

      22        Q    Mr. Keller, I'll ask you to take a look at a

      23   photograph which appears to depict an unfortunately

      24   portly gentleman on the top of the ladder?

      25        A    Correct.

.                                                                874

       1        Q    Can you tell me who that is?

       2        A    It's you, Mr. Merrett.

       3        Q    Is that at the commencement of my

       4   examination of the camera on December 4?

       5        A    It is.

       6        Q    Can you tell the court where the camera was

       7   positioned with respect to the rat bait building at

       8   that time and is shown in the photograph?

       9        A    It's at the very corner of the rat bait

      10   building where it butts out about six or eight inches

      11   from the Scientology building.

      12        Q    Is it in contact with the rat bait building,

      13   that is up against the corner of the building?

      14        A    It's very close.  I'm not sure if it's in

      15   contact.

      16        Q    Okay.  And does that fairly and accurately

      17   represent the appearance and position of the camera at

      18   the time that it was first handled by Mr. Minton or

      19   myself?

      20        A    You.

      21        Q    Okay.  And do you recall me going first?

      22        A    Yes.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  I would tender that as our

      24       six.

      25            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, any objection?

.                                                                875

       1            MR. POPE:  No objection.  Your Honor, I

       2       thought you had marked a number five earlier.

       3            THE COURT:  All right, so that will be

       4       six and this will be seven.  Thank you, sir.

       5       Hold on.  Okay.  That will be in evidence.

       6       Go ahead please, sir.

       7   BY MR. MERRETT:

       8        Q    Mr. Keller, were you present during the

       9   entire examination and photographing of that camera or

      10   those cameras by Mr. Minton and myself?

      11        A    I was.

      12        Q    Did anyone attempt to pass north and south

      13   along that sidewalk on Watterson Avenue during that

      14   time?

      15        A    Not that I recall.

      16        Q    Did anybody request -- did anybody move out

      17   of the way of the group of people that was standing

      18   there?

      19        A    No.

      20        Q    Was there in fact a bread delivery taking

      21   place as the Clearwater Bank Building?

      22        A    Yes.

      23        Q    And did the bread delivery continue to

      24   proceed throughout these events?

      25        A    Yes.

.                                                                876

       1        Q    Did you see anybody who you were able to

       2   recognize by looking as a Scientologist come within

       3   ten feet of any of the people on the ladder or around

       4   the base of the ladder?

       5        A    No.

       6        Q    Okay.  Did you hear anybody shouting, for

       7   example, I am a Scientologist.  I'm trapped in the

       8   building, please move?

       9        A    No.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  I don't have anything

      11       further.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      13                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      14   BY MR. HOWIE:

      15        Q    May it please the court, it is your

      16   testimony then that during this entire incident while

      17   my client, Mr. Minton, was on the ladder at the spy

      18   camera next to the rat bait building that no one you

      19   recognized as a Scientologist came within ten feet of

      20   Mr. Minton; is that correct?

      21        A    That's correct.

      22        Q    All right.  And do you recall any instant

      23   during that entire time from the time the ladder was

      24   first -- well, let me ask you this.  You were there

      25   from the time the ladder was first set up until the

.                                                                877

       1   time it was taken down and taken away?

       2        A    Yes.

       3        Q    Okay.  And you continued to be there

       4   throughout that incident?

       5        A    Yes.

       6        Q    During that entire incident was there a

       7   single episode where someone identifying themselves as

       8   a member of the Church of Scientology complained that

       9   they were either being blocked or inhibited from

      10   entering or exiting the building?

      11        A    No.

      12        Q    Or otherwise blocked in any way from going

      13   about their business?

      14        A    No.

      15        Q    Do you recall a single incident during that

      16   entire episode, again from the time the ladder was set

      17   from the time the ladder was taken down of any acts

      18   that you could possibly describe as any kind of

      19   harassment or violence against any member of the

      20   Church of Scientology?

      21        A    No.

      22        Q    And finally during that time was there a

      23   single incident in which anybody raised up a picket

      24   sign and was marching in the immediate vicinity of

      25   that ladder?

.                                                                878

       1        A    No.

       2        Q    Have you had a chance to review the

       3   videotape in this case?

       4        A    Yes.

       5        Q    All right.  And to your, from what you say

       6   and heard that day, does that fairly and accurately

       7   depict what occurred that day?

       8        A    Yes.

       9            MR. POPE:  Okay.  Thank you.  I don't

      10       have any further questions.

      11            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope.

      12                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    Mr. Keller, that security camera that

      15   Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett touched was actually

      16   attached to the Bank of Clearwater Building, right?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    And it jutted out a little bit and you don't

      19   believe it quite touched the building that has been

      20   referred to as the rat bait building?

      21        A    I'm not sure if it was within a millimeter

      22   or if it was actually touching.

      23        Q    All right.  And you recognized then and

      24   there that it was actually attached to the Bank of

      25   Clearwater Building?

.                                                                879

       1        A    It is.

       2        Q    All right.  And you knew that at the time

       3   that this inspection was going on?

       4        A    Yes.

       5        Q    What was the reason for going up and

       6   touching this camera in the first place?

       7        A    By who?

       8        Q    By Mr. Minton or by Mr. Merrett?

       9        A    Neither one told me their reason.

      10        Q    Why did you will come out with them and

      11   photograph this?

      12        A    Because I thought it was important that

      13   somebody take a picture of them doing this.

      14        Q    What did you think it was?

      15        A    A camera.

      16        Q    You already knew it was camera before

      17   anybody climbed up on the ladder?

      18        A    I believed it was a camera.

      19        Q    Okay.  So you can't tell me as you sit here

      20   today why Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett got up on the

      21   ladder and touched this thing?

      22        A    No, I don't know.

      23        Q    You can't tell me as you sit here today why

      24   you took a photograph of these, of the camera and

      25   Mr. Merrett up on the ladder?

.                                                                880

       1        A    I took a picture so that there would be a

       2   record available on the internet of the events that

       3   happened that weekend.

       4        Q    What was the importance to you of having

       5   this event memorialized on the internet?

       6        A    Because there was an examination of a camera

       7   going on.

       8        Q    Why was that important?

       9        A    It was an event that happened during the

      10   weekend.  It was reported in various protest reports

      11   posted on the internet and to provide a graphical

      12   companion to that narrative I thought it was

      13   important.

      14        Q    So what you wanted to do was just report as

      15   much on the internet that you could about the events

      16   that occurred?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    Well, apart from just feeling this necessity

      19   to report this on the internet, was there any other

      20   reason for climbing up there and fooling with cameras?

      21        A    Not that I'm aware of.

      22        Q    Now, after Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett

      23   touched the camera wasn't it in a slightly different

      24   position?

      25        A    I thought they returned it to pretty much

.                                                                881

       1   the original position.

       2        Q    Okay, so it was actually pulled away but you

       3   thought they had put it back in the original position?

       4        A    Yes.

       5            MR. POPE:  Okay.  I don't have any

       6       further questions.

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett?

       8            MR. MERRETT:  Nothing further of this

       9       witness, Your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      11            MR. HOWIE:  I have no questions.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Keller, you may step

      13       down and have a seat back out there.

      14       Mr. Merrett, call you next witness.

      15            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, as this time I

      16       would move the court to take judicial notice

      17       of the filing of the LMT's second motion for

      18       an order to show cause on December 4, 2000

      19       and the attached photographs of the spy

      20       cameras which are located in the court file,

      21       both of the fact that it was filed and the

      22       fact that it was filed on December 4.

      23            THE COURT:  Okay.  Just a minute.

      24             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

      25            Okay, sir.  Call your next witness.

.                                                                882

       1            MR. MERRETT:  Was notice taken?

       2            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Thank.

       4            THE COURT:  So noted.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Call Grady Ward.

       6   Thereupon:

       7                         GRADY WARD

       8   was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was

       9   examined and testified as follows:

      10                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      11   BY MR. MERRETT:

      12        Q    Mr. Ward, where do you live?

      13        A    In Arcata, California.

      14        Q    And how long have you lived out there?

      15        A    Approximately nine years.

      16        Q    What is your trade or profession?

      17        A    I'm a computer expert.

      18        Q    And what does that mean?

      19        A    Well, most recently it's setting up and

      20   maintaining computer networks and maintaining

      21   computers so that they're functioning for businesses.

      22        Q    Is one of the clients or customers for whom

      23   you do that the Lisa McPherson Trust?

      24        A    Yes, it is.

      25        Q    And you provide that service under contract

.                                                                883

       1   to them?

       2        A    Yes, I do.

       3        Q    Let me ask you if you or if you can tell the

       4   court first off whether you are affiliated --

       5   affiliated may be the wrong word.

       6             Are you connected in any way with the -- do

       7   you consider yourself part of what is known as the

       8   critical movement of Scientology?

       9        A    Yes.

      10        Q    And how long have you been actively critical

      11   of Scientology's practices?

      12        A    From January 15 I think it was, maybe a few

      13   days earlier, 1995.

      14        Q    And is that the RM Group notice from

      15   Ms. Kobrin?

      16        A    Yes, most definitely.

      17        Q    Okay.  Now, let me ask you if you were in

      18   town, that is in Clearwater, over the first weekend in

      19   November?  I'm sorry.  I'm going to back way up.  I

      20   want to back up to December of 1999 and January of

      21   2000.

      22        A    Yes, I don't remember the dates

      23   specifically, but --

      24        Q    Were you present in Clearwater at the time

      25   the Lisa McPherson Trust moved into its property,

.                                                                884

       1   purchase its property and set up?

       2        A    Yes.

       3        Q    Let me ask you if you made a deliberate

       4   inspection of the premises and the surrounding

       5   building?

       6        A    Yes, I did.

       7        Q    And can you tell the judge why you did that

       8   and what you were looking for?

       9        A    Because of my experience with Scientology

      10   surveillance with myself and other people I wanted to

      11   see what the immediate surroundings were in order to

      12   see if there was any change that might indicate

      13   additional surveillance cameras and microphones.

      14        Q    Did you inspect the exterior portions of the

      15   building abutting the LMT property and the buildings

      16   abutting them?

      17        A    Yes, I did.

      18        Q    And, in fact, did you inspect the whole

      19   block?

      20        A    Um, yes, most carefully immediately from LMT

      21   and less carefully away from it.

      22            MR. MERRETT:  All right.  Your Honor,

      23       may I see the last two exhibits admitted, the

      24       photographs?

      25            THE COURT:  I think you got more than

.                                                                885

       1       you need there.  Hand that back.

       2   BY MR. MERRETT:

       3        Q    Mr. Ward, I'm showing you Exhibit Six which

       4   is a composite exhibit consisting of three

       5   photographs.  Do you recognize the area that depicted

       6   in Exhibit Six.

       7        A    Yes, it is between the Scientology property

       8   and the bank building and the so-called rat bait

       9   building.

      10        Q    Let me ask you if you specifically looked at

      11   that place, the place that those two buildings come

      12   together among the other places that you inspected at

      13   the time the Lisa McPherson Trust was moving to

      14   Clearwater?

      15        A    Yes, I did.

      16        Q    And you see the junction box there?

      17        A    Yes, I do.

      18        Q    And which we now know contains spy cameras?

      19        A    Yes.

      20        Q    Let me ask you if when you made that

      21   inspection just before the Lisa McPherson Trust moved

      22   into its property was that junction box there?

      23        A    That junction box was not there.

      24        Q    Were there any cameras there pointing north

      25   on Watterson Street?

.                                                                886

       1        A    None that I could see.

       2        Q    Okay.  Let me ask you if you had occasion

       3   within a day or two after making that inspection to go

       4   back and reinspect?

       5        A    Yes, I did.

       6        Q    What was the purpose for doing that?

       7        A    I wanted to -- I like to kind of compare two

       8   pictures before and after to see if there is any

       9   movement anywhere.

      10        Q    Uh-huh.

      11        A    So I go to inspect the area before and after

      12   to see if anything new had been added because that

      13   would indicate something possibly suspicious.

      14        Q    And did you find something in the area

      15   depicted in exhibit six that had changed?

      16        A    Yes, I did.

      17        Q    What was that?

      18        A    This additional junction box, apparently

      19   innocuous electrical junction box was added.

      20        Q    And is it connected to electrical conduit on

      21   the back?

      22        A    Yes.  Actually it appeared there was also a

      23   wire that went into the telephone box.

      24        Q    Okay.  I'm glad you mentioned that.  Let me

      25   ask you, can you see this?

.                                                                887

       1        A    Yes.

       2            THE COURT:  You want to step down and go

       3       out there so you can turn that around and

       4       everybody can see what he is doing?  Go ahead

       5       and do that because everybody out there has a

       6       right to see.  Bring it around and Mr. Ward,

       7       go ahead and step down and go right there.

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    Okay.  I want you to assume that this is the

      10   rat bait building and this is the Clearwater Bank

      11   Building.  And this is the conventionally housed

      12   security camera that looks south along Watterson

      13   Street?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    Okay.  When up until December 4, 2000, first

      16   off were you in town on December 4?

      17        A    Yes, for the occasion of the Lisa McPherson

      18   picket.

      19        Q    Were you present during the events that have

      20   been described involving the ladder and the

      21   photographs and handling camera?

      22        A    Yes, I was.

      23        Q    Up until that time how was the camera

      24   situated with relation to the side of the rat bait

      25   building?

.                                                                888

       1        A    At that time I believe there was the main

       2   bracket which was a little --

       3        Q    The spy camera?

       4        A    Yes.  There was a bracket attached to the

       5   Clearwater building or what would seem to be a cable

       6   that went under the rat bait and down to a shared

       7   telephone junction box owned by GTE.

       8        Q    Where was the -- was the camera box, the

       9   junction box in contact with the rat bait building?

      10        A    Well, the only thing that's right is that it

      11   was into the rat bait building's property area.  That

      12   is it was north of the apparent property line between

      13   the Clearwater building and rat bait building.

      14        Q    As far as the color of the junction box,

      15   which building was it painted to match?

      16        A    I don't recall.

      17        Q    Okay.  Now, is it correct that there is a

      18   phone box down here?

      19        A    Yes, that is correct.

      20        Q    And if this was the spy camera box, you said

      21   there was a cable?

      22        A    Actually if that one, that vertical one

      23   represent the boundary between it actually would be

      24   probably more to that line.

      25        Q    Okay.  Like that?

.                                                                889

       1        A    Yeah. that's about right.

       2        Q    And where did this cable run?

       3        A    Apparently ran from behind the spy camera

       4   down to the right and then trajectory into the

       5   telephone box.

       6        Q    This is the telephone?

       7        A    Yes.  I have to point out that it is a

       8   shared box between the LMT and the Clearwater Bank

       9   Building and the rat bait building.

      10        Q    So all three of these buildings including

      11   the LMT on the other side of the rat bait building had

      12   their telephone junctions inside that box?

      13        A    Yes.

      14        Q    Okay.  You can resume the stand with the

      15   leave of the court?

      16            THE COURT:  Come on back up here,

      17       please, sir.

      18   BY MR. MERRETT:

      19        Q    Now, do all of the LMT telephones run

      20   through this box?

      21        A    Yes, they do.

      22        Q    And you had occasion to inspect them before?

      23        A    Yes, I have.

      24        Q    And I want to ask you if on December 4

      25   before Mr. Minton and I went outside if you noticed

.                                                                890

       1   anything unusual or alarming about this telephone

       2   line?

       3        A    Yes, absolutely.

       4        Q    Tell the judge what you saw?

       5        A    In order to prevent anybody from tampering

       6   with anyone's telephone lines, there is a black

       7   plastic seal which protects the external cover from

       8   the box from being removed.

       9        Q    Let me stop you right there.  Tell the judge

      10   what you mean by that?  Is there a little hole where

      11   the door closes?

      12        A    I'm not -- I can describe it, but on the

      13   electric meter for example there a little lead seal.

      14   Well, you've probably seen that.  On this one there is

      15   a little plastic seal which when it is shut you can

      16   tell whether or not someone has been into it recently.

      17        Q    Okay.  So it's a situation such that you

      18   can't open that box without breaking the seal?

      19        A    Yes, and on that day I saw that the seal had

      20   been broken.

      21        Q    Where was the seal?

      22        A    I saw the seal, well what appeared to be the

      23   seal had been on it because there was it was black.

      24   The line had been about three feet away from it.

      25        Q    From the box?

.                                                                891

       1        A    From the box.

       2        Q    Okay.  Now, is it the routine practice based

       3   on your inspections and your being present when the

       4   phone company inspected that that seal is always

       5   replaced when the phone company accesses the box?

       6            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.  I'm

       7       going to interrupt and move to strike his

       8       testimony on the basis that he has not been

       9       qualified as an expert in telephone

      10       technology.  There has been no foundation and

      11       he's opining about all of these things.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, Section 90.406

      14       permits uncorroborated testimony as a right

      15       or a practice of any business or organization

      16       in order to demonstrate that it acted in

      17       conformity with a practice on a given

      18       occasion.

      19            It doesn't require eyewitness testimony,

      20        it doesn't require corroboration and it's

      21        not a subject of expertise.  He is not

      22        offering an opinion regarding phone boxes

      23        sealing.

      24            MR. POPE:  I guess you could have fooled

      25       me, Your Honor.

.                                                                892

       1            THE COURT:  Let's just wait a minute.

       2       He might be fooling me.  Let's take a look.

       3       90.4 what?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  I think it's 406, Judge.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  Routine practice.

       6            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, what would you

       8       like to say?

       9            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I agree with

      10       him.  This doesn't strike me as expert

      11       testimony.  It strikes me as a routine

      12       practice examination.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay. Yes, sir.  Overruled

      14       and we're moving right along and slow down a

      15       little bit.  Please proceed.

      16   BY MR. MERRETT:

      17        Q    Thank you.  Is that a regular practice when

      18   the phone man opens the box that he clips it when he

      19   closes it, he puts the new on?

      20            MR. POPE:  Your Honor.

      21            THE COURT:  Yes.

      22            MR. POPE:  Objection.  So he's now

      23       testifying to the routine practice of an

      24       organization, the phone man, of which he's

      25       not a part.  He hasn't been qualified to have

.                                                                893

       1       any knowledge of that.  That's the chink in

       2       the armor.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  I understand Scientology

       4       is always nervous when there is evidence of

       5       breaking and entering, Judge.

       6            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, that is --

       7            THE COURT:  Hold it.  Time out.  Whoa,

       8       whoa.  Gentlemen, gentleman, gentlemen, I

       9       knew that -- let's don't -- come on, you two.

      10       Please, let's don't get back into this.

      11       Let's stop.  Hold on.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  I can lay a predicate for

      13       it.

      14            THE COURT:  Let's do that, would you

      15       please?  Thank you.

      16   BY MR. MERRETT:

      17        Q    Have you on occasions other than December 4

      18   been present when this phone box has been opened and

      19   inspected by the phone man?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    Okay.  Approximately how many times with

      22   respect to this phone box?

      23        A    I've been with the phone man probably three

      24   times.  I've seen, being with the telephone man once

      25   in which he specifically sealed it and told me to call

.                                                                894

       1   him if it ever became unsealed.

       2        Q    Okay.

       3        A    And he would inspect it.

       4        Q    Okay.  So, let me ask you this.  Prior to

       5   December 4 had you noticed that there was a seal in

       6   place on the box?

       7        A    Yes.

       8        Q    Okay.  On December 4 did you notice that the

       9   seal was broken?

      10        A    Yes.

      11        Q    And did that cause you concern?

      12        A    Yes.

      13        Q    And why did that cause you concern?

      14        A    Because since it was shared box between was

      15   and since the telephone box was mounted either on or

      16   very close to Scientology property, I thought there

      17   was a good chance that someone may have manipulated in

      18   order to listen to our conversations.

      19        Q    Did you inform Ms. Brooks of that?

      20        A    I'm sure I did or another member of the

      21   Trust.

      22        Q    Okay.  Now, were you along with Mr. Keller

      23   present essentially throughout the adventure involving

      24   the examination and the photographing of the spy

      25   camera?

.                                                                895

       1        A    No, I think I left for a short while, but.

       2        Q    During the time that you were there did you

       3   see anybody attempted to travel north or south on that

       4   sidewalk along Watterson Avenue?

       5        A    No, absolutely not.

       6        Q    Did you see anyone who you recognized as

       7   being a Scientologist come within ten feet of any of

       8   these people?

       9        A    No, I did not.

      10        Q    Did you see anybody who you recognized as a

      11   Scientologist stymied and stuck, confused and pulling

      12   his hair out in the middle of the road unable to pass?

      13        A    No.  We were very careful and very attentive

      14   to traffic coming down Watterson because I was in the

      15   street.  I didn't want to get run over and I was very

      16   attentive to where the placement of the security

      17   guard's camera so we would not obstruct anyone, nor

      18   did I want them to come too close to me for my own

      19   safety.

      20        Q    Did a bread delivery take place while

      21   everybody was out there?

      22        A    There was a bread delivery going into the

      23   building.

      24        Q    Okay.  Did you see or hear anyone, who

      25   either by appearance or by word indicated that they

.                                                                896

       1   were in any way thwarted from anything they wanted to

       2   do by the presence of the people on the ladder and

       3   around the bottom of the ladder?

       4        A    No, I did not.

       5        Q    Did you hear Mr. Ahmed Elkamel screaming at

       6   the harassment that Mr. Pope said occurred when the

       7   camera was touched.  Could you hear from there?

       8        A    No, there was no indication at all that the

       9   camera was active or not.

      10        Q    Any picket signs out there?

      11        A    No.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  If I can have just a

      13       minute, Your Honor?

      14            THE COURT:  You may.

      15             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

      16            MR. MERRETT:  I don't believe I have

      17       anything further.

      18            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      19            MR. HOWIE:  I don't have anything, Your

      20       Honor.

      21            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      22                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      23   BY MR. POPE:

      24        Q    Mr. Ward, I believe you are listed on the

      25   Lisa McPherson Trust brochure as the Web Master and

.                                                                897

       1   Security Director?

       2        A    I am listed that way, but my correct job is

       3   mostly the computer.

       4        Q    How would you title your position with the

       5   LMT?

       6        A    Probably the best distinction is that I

       7   handle the computer maintenance and underpinnings, the

       8   intrastructure of a computer.  I do not handle content

       9   of the computer.

      10        Q    Are you salaried by -- does LMT pay you a

      11   salary for your services?

      12        A    As a contractor I'm paid $2,500 a month.

      13        Q    By the Trust?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    For services that you render in connection

      16   with the computer system?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    Now, over the past few years has Mr. Minton

      19   paid you maybe around $50,000?

      20        A    I don't know the exact number but he has

      21   given me money.

      22        Q    And that's apart from the money you get from

      23   the LMT?

      24        A    Yes.

      25        Q    Do you have a reason to believe that $50,000

.                                                                898

       1   is an incorrect amount?

       2        A    No, that's probably correct.

       3        Q    Why has he paid you this sum of money?

       4        A    Well, paid, saying paid is an incorrect

       5   characterization.  He has felt sorry for people who

       6   have been abused through the litigiousness of

       7   Scientology.

       8        Q    And now you've never been a Scientologist,

       9   have you?

      10        A    No, I have not.

      11        Q    Now, you mentioned that you had been abused

      12   through the litigiousness of the Scientologists; is

      13   that right?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    Were you a defendant in a lawsuit that U.S.

      16   District Court for the Northern District of California

      17   San Jose Division, the Religious Technology Center

      18   Versus Grady Ward?

      19            MR. MERRETT:  Objection, relevance.

      20            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, he just opened it

      21       up.

      22            THE COURT:  Proceed.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  As long as we all hear the

      24       hinges creak, Your Honor.

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.  Let's listen.

.                                                                899

       1            MR. POPE:  May I approach the witness?

       2            THE COURT:  Go ahead.

       3   BY MR. POPE:

       4        Q    Let me show you, Mr. Ward.  Is that a copy

       5   of an order regarding plaintiff's motion for sanctions

       6   and renewed motion to compel in the case that I just

       7   mentioned that was entered by the court on May 23,

       8   2000?

       9        A    Without studying it I'll assume that's what

      10   it is on the face, so the answer is probably yes.

      11        Q    That's the case you're the defendant in and

      12   was this the case in which you had been harmed by the

      13   litigiousness of the Scientologists?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    All right.  And is this a copyright case?

      16        A    It was copyright, trade secret and action

      17   for declaratory relief.

      18        Q    Has it proceeded to final judgment yet?

      19        A    Yes, but I prevailed on the trade secret.

      20   The declaratory relief was dropped and the copyright,

      21   no finding of either guilty or judgment.

      22        Q    So you settled the case?

      23        A    Yes.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  I'm sorry, Judge.  I have

      25       to object.  RTC is not a party to this

.                                                                900

       1       action.

       2            MR. POPE:  RTC is a Scientology related

       3       company.

       4            THE COURT:  Proceed.

       5            MR. POPE:  I'd like to offer this into

       6       evidence, Your Honor.

       7            THE COURT:  Gentleman, you mind if I

       8       play through here just a minute?  Pay

       9       attention up front.

      10            Mr. Pope, explain what it was that you

      11        said that they've missed.

      12            MR. POPE:  I said I'd like to offer this

      13       document in evidence.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  Subject to the same

      15       objection, Your Honor.  The document

      16       obviously --

      17            THE COURT:  Relevance, you mean?

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      19            MR. HOWIE:  Join in the objection, Your

      20       Honor.

      21            THE COURT:  Okay.  Overruled.  And let

      22       the record reflect it's being entered out of

      23       order and 16.  Proceed.

      24   BY MR. POPE:

      25        Q    With respect to this order, Mr. Ward,

.                                                                901

       1   beginning at the bottom of page two it says because

       2   the court is sufficiently concerned that Ward may have

       3   submitted false testimony with respect to the

       4   particulars of his dealings with Minton, it will grant

       5   RTC's request to refer to his testimony to the United

       6   States attorney for investigation and further action

       7   as appropriate.  Is that proceeding still ongoing with

       8   the Unites States attorney?

       9        A    I don't have the document and presumably

      10   what you say is accurate.  I haven't heard anything

      11   from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, so I presume

      12   they dropped it as they should have.

      13        Q    You've heard nothing with respect to this

      14   potential investigation by the United States attorney?

      15        A    That's correct.

      16        Q    Nobody has ever contacted you one way or the

      17   other?

      18        A    That's correct.

      19        Q    Since this order was entered in May of last

      20   year?

      21        A    That's correct.

      22        Q    All right.  Now, whose telephone box was

      23   this that you described up here?

      24        A    Well, presumably it belongs to GTE or

      25   Verizon.

.                                                                902

       1        Q    Whose phone did it service?

       2        A    It services ours, the rat bait building and

       3   some of the Bank of Clearwater Building.

       4        Q    So it serviced all three of those buildings,

       5   you think?

       6        A    Well, the ones that are close to it, yes.

       7        Q    Okay.  And, I believe you said that you

       8   thought that had been manipulated so that someone can

       9   listen in to LMT's conversations, was that your

      10   concern?

      11        A    That wasn't my testimony.

      12        Q    Well, tell me what you said?

      13        A    I noticed that the seal had been broken and

      14   therefore I knew that when that happened it should be

      15   verified and make sure that our posts inside --

      16   there's rows of many 60 telephone posts inside of

      17   which we own six or seven and I wanted to verify there

      18   were no additional wires.  Had there had been at first

      19   I had suspected there were additional lines.

      20        Q    Your concern was that somebody might be

      21   tapping LMT's phone, right?

      22        A    Yes, and was in fact verified.  The rat bat

      23   building had wires from our post into the building.

      24        Q    Now, you of course immediately reported this

      25   to the police, didn't you?

.                                                                903

       1        A    No, I reported it to the telephone company

       2   when we first noticed that extra wire was in the rat

       3   bait building.

       4        Q    Did you determine that LMT's telephone had

       5   indeed been tapped?

       6        A    There is no way to determine that, sir.

       7        Q    Okay.  So that was just a suspicion and

       8   there was no way to ever even determine it?

       9        A    We did determine the fact, both the

      10   telephone repair person and I saw wires from our post

      11   going to the rat bait building.

      12        Q    To the rat bait building?

      13        A    That is correct.

      14        Q    But not the Bank of Clearwater Building?

      15        A    Where they went after the rat bait building,

      16   I wouldn't know.

      17        Q    Okay.  What you have is a suspicion and

      18   that's it?

      19        A    No, not that's it.  We saw wires going into

      20   someplace other than the proper owners of those posts.

      21   It's prima facie evidence that somebody was illegally

      22   listening to our line.

      23        Q    But you never have determined who that

      24   someone else is, have you?

      25        A    When I see extra wires that should not be

.                                                                904

       1   there it makes me suspicious.

       2        Q    I understand you're suspicious.  I asked you

       3   if you determined who it is that you suspect tapped

       4   your telephone?

       5        A    Based upon circumstantial evidence I'd say

       6   the Church of Scientology is very likely to have done

       7   so.

       8        Q    Have you determined that?  Have you

       9   determined as a fact that the Church of Scientology

      10   tapped the LMT telephone?

      11        A    No, I have not determined that as a fact.

      12        Q    All right.  Now, when Mr. Minton and

      13   Mr. Merrett came out of the LMT building and put up

      14   the ladder to go up and look at the camera, did they

      15   inspect the telephone box?

      16        A    They looked at the wire which went into the

      17   top of it telephone box.

      18        Q    And you reported to them your suspicion that

      19   the telephone had been tapped?  Had you reported that

      20   to Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett?

      21        A    No, I didn't make that kind of conclusory

      22   observation.  I simply noted that a wire currently run

      23   from the spy camera into the telephone box.

      24            MR. POPE:  May I have a moment, Your

      25       Honor?

.                                                                905

       1            THE COURT:  You can have it, sir.

       2             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

       3            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

       4       Honor.

       5            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett.

       6                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       7   BY MR. MERRETT:

       8        Q    The occasion when you found the extra wire,

       9   was that on or around December 4 or was that earlier

      10   time.

      11        A    That was the occasion when you just moved

      12   into the building.

      13        Q    Okay.

      14        A    Previous year.

      15        Q    Now Mr. Pope asked you at some length about

      16   the nature and basis for your suspicions regarding

      17   telephone tapping.

      18             Do you have any knowledge or information

      19   regarding prior incidence of domestic spying carried

      20   on by Scientology?

      21        A    There are numerous ones, including the

      22   infamous one which several of their high ranking men

      23   went to jail.

      24        Q    Okay.  That's known as the Snow White case?

      25        A    Yes, it is.

.                                                                906

       1        Q    Is that --

       2            MS. KOBRIN:  Objection.

       3            THE COURT:  Hold on.  Time out.

       4            MR. POPE:  Excuse me, Your Honor --

       5            THE COURT:  Hold on just a minute.  Let

       6       me hear what he said so I understand what

       7       you're objecting to.

       8            MR. POPE:  Okay.

       9            THE COURT:  Just a second.  That's known

      10       as what, sir?

      11            THE WITNESS:  In the late 1970s --

      12            THE COURT:  No, no, you said something.

      13       Let's do it this way.

      14            MR. WARD:  Yes, sir.

      15            THE COURT:  Madam Court Reporter?

      16             (Thereupon, the question and answer

      17        referred to was read by the reporter as above

      18        recorded.)

      19            THE COURT:  Thank you.  Yes, sir.

      20            MR. POPE:  My objection is he's

      21       testifying about the lawsuit back in the late

      22       70s as to which he hasn't indicated he has

      23       any personal knowledge whatsoever or that he

      24       was a party or that is in any other way

      25       competent to testify about it and that

.                                                                907

       1       lawsuit and apparently his conclusions about

       2       it are not probative of any matter at issue

       3       in this case.

       4            THE COURT:  Mr. Merrett.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, they might not

       6       have been if Mr. Pope restrained himself than

       7       attempting to attack Mr. Ward's suspicions

       8       regarding phone tapping as unreasonable.

       9            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Proceed.

      10   BY MR. MERRETT:

      11        Q    Is that the case known as Snow White?

      12        A    Yes, it is.

      13        Q    And is that the case in which Ms. Kobrin's

      14   law partner, Kendrick Moxon, is named as an unindicted

      15   co-conspirator?

      16            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.  There

      17       is no foundation that this witness is

      18       competent to testify about any of this, even

      19       if it's theoretically relevant.

      20            THE COURT:  Predicate.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Sir?

      22            THE COURT:  Predicate?

      23   BY MR. MERRETT:

      24        Q    Are you familiar with the circumstances of

      25   the Snow White case?

.                                                                908

       1        A    From reading court documents, yes.

       2        Q    You've read documents from the National

       3   Archives regarding Snow White?

       4        A    Yes, I have.

       5        Q    And, let's see.

       6            MR. POPE:  A further objection on the

       7       basis that the best evidence of the result of

       8       that case would be th pleadings and the

       9       judgments entered into it.

      10            This witness has read, out of court,

      11        court documents somewhere, he's not

      12        competent to testify to this, Your Honor.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Again, Your Honor, the

      14       reason for it is Mr. Pope is asking him about

      15       his suspicions.  This is the basis for those

      16       suspicions.  Why he was alarmed enough to

      17       succeed --

      18            THE COURT:  Proceed.

      19   BY MR. MERRETT:

      20        Q    Thank you.  Is that the case in which

      21   Ms. Kobrin's law partner, Kendrick Moxon, was named as

      22   an unindicted co-conspirator in a spying effort

      23   directed at the United States government?

      24        A    That is correct.

      25        Q    And is that the case in which Mary Sue

.                                                                909

       1   Hubbard and a number of other high ranking officials

       2   of Scientology were convicted in federal court?

       3        A    Yes, they signed a stipulation that resulted

       4   in prison time.

       5        Q    Okay.  Is that the case in which

       6   Mrs. Hubbard was represented by Michael Hertzberg who

       7   was in here representing Scientology up until day

       8   before yesterday?

       9        A    Same name, Hertzberg.  I don't know if it's

      10   the same person.

      11        Q    Okay.  Now, did you end up summoning the

      12   phone man back out to replace the seal?

      13        A    I haven't done so most recently, but the

      14   first time I asked him to replace the seal.

      15        Q    I'm talking back on December 4?

      16        A    Yes, I believe the seal was replace.

      17        Q    Is it there that now?

      18        A    The seal yesterday I noticed it had been

      19   removed again.

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

      21       anything further of this witness.

      22            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie?

      23            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I don't have any

      24       questions.

      25            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope?

.                                                                910

       1            MR. POPE:  Nothing further, Your Honor.

       2            THE COURT:  Sir, you may step down and

       3       have a seat back out in the audience.  You

       4       may step down.  Let's go.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, at this time I

       6       would offer the court this

       7       self-authenticating document, the United

       8       States attorney's response to informal bills

       9       of particulars filed in United States versus

      10       Mary Sue Hubbard on January 11, 1979 bearing

      11       signatures purporting to be those of

      12       officials from the office of the United

      13       States attorney for the District of Columbia,

      14       bears the clerk's stamp and number 78-401.

      15       It also bears the imprint indicating that it

      16       was reproduced at the National Archives.

      17            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      18            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, it is not a

      19       certified copy that I can tell and it's a

      20       25-plus year old matter that has no relevance

      21       whatever to the issue of whether these folks

      22       violated your injunction.  It's way far

      23       field.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  Hold on just a

      25       minute.  Mr. Howie.

.                                                                911

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I think it's

       2       relevant to show Mr. Ward's state of mind.

       3       No matter how old the history is, the history

       4       is there.  Ha has a right to form his belief

       5       accordingly.

       6            THE COURT:  Gentleman, I'll allow it in.

       7       It will be Defendant LMT's Number Eight.

       8       I'll give the credibility I feel it deserves.

       9       Proceed.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you.  Call Stacy

      11       Brooks.

      12            THE COURT:  Ms. Brooks. if you will come

      13       forward.  Please.  I'm going to continue you

      14       under the oath that you've been previously

      15       placed under.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I beg your

      17       pardon.  After having called her I will not

      18       speak to her, but I am in dire need of a

      19       comfort break.

      20            THE COURT:  Denied.  No.  Let's take a

      21       break.  We'll take about ten minutes.

      22             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      23        which the proceedings continued.)

      24            THE COURT:  Let the record reflect that

      25       the witness has been previously sworn by The

.                                                                912

       1       Court and I will continue her under the same

       2       oath.  But, let's do this just a minute.  Let

       3       me get this number eight in evidence.

       4             (Exhibit Number Eight is admitted into

       5        evidence.)

       6            Done.

       7                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    Ms. Brooks, what is your relationship with

      10   the Lisa McPherson Trust?

      11        A    I'm the President.

      12        Q    And were you the President back on

      13   December 4, 2000?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    Let me ask you if recall the events

      16   surrounding the examination, touching and

      17   photographing of the spy camera by Mr. Minton and

      18   myself?

      19        A    Yes, I do.

      20        Q    Did you know who made the decision that that

      21   needed to be done?

      22        A    I did.

      23        Q    And why was it that you wanted that done?

      24        A    The circumstance was that Judge Penick's

      25   injunction had just been put into effect and I had

.                                                                913

       1   read the injunction and was very happy to see that

       2   part of it stated that there was to be no harassment

       3   of the Lisa McPherson Trust by Scientologist.

       4        Q    Uh-huh.

       5        A    And the Scientology security people on

       6   Watterson Avenue have made it a practice for a number

       7   of months to videotape me every time I come out of the

       8   parking structure, all the way until I get into the

       9   office and also as soon as I leave the office they

      10   would begin to videotape me basically whenever I would

      11   leave our building.  I felt that we were being

      12   harassed that we were being videotaped.

      13        Q    What about the spy cameras?

      14        A    Also they had this spy camera that they had

      15   set up to take video of everyone who went in and out

      16   of our building, both this one which is it on our door

      17   on Watterson, but also there was one on our door on

      18   Ft. Harrison so that there have been a number of

      19   incidences where people who are needing help from us

      20   had come into our building and then they were

      21   videotaped and then they were affected by having been

      22   videotaped by the Scientology camera in adverse ways,

      23   so when --

      24        Q    What is it that you wanted me and Mr. Minton

      25   do to?

.                                                                914

       1        A    I wanted you to take photographs of this

       2   camera that was trained on our door so that you could

       3   attach those photographs as evidence in an order to

       4   show cause to Judge Penick for harassment of the Lisa

       5   McPherson Trust because of this video camera.

       6        Q    Are you the person who signed off and asked

       7   on the motion for order to show cause asking that the

       8   camera be taken down?

       9        A    I believe so.

      10        Q    Had Mr. Ward that day told you about the

      11   missing seal and the wire running into your phone box?

      12        A    Yes, and I was very concerned.

      13        Q    Okay.  And for that reason did you ask that

      14   Mr. Minton and myself go and collect the necessary

      15   evidence to bring that motion?

      16        A    Well, in fact I asked you.

      17        Q    Uh-huh.

      18        A    In fact I asked you to go and take those

      19   photographs, however what happened was that you didn't

      20   turn out to know how to use the camera well and so Bob

      21   Minton took the photographs for you.

      22            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  If I could have one

      23       moment, Your Honor?

      24            THE COURT:  You may.

      25             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

.                                                                915

       1   BY MR. MERRETT:

       2        Q    Now, if I recall correctly the other

       3   testimonies, you were not outside during the time that

       4   the photographs were being taken; is that correct?

       5        A    That's correct.

       6        Q    I guess the last thing I want to ask you,

       7   sort of in follow up to Mr. Henson and Mr. Ward's

       8   cross-examination, have any of the people known as

       9   Critics of Scientology been sent to prison?

      10        A    Not that I know of.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

      12       anything further.

      13            THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Howie.

      14            MR. HOWIE:  No questions, Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      16                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      17   BY MR. POPE:

      18        Q    Yes, Your Honor.  Ms. Brooks?

      19        A    Mr. Pope.

      20        Q    The LMT, when it decided to come into the

      21   City of Clearwater could have picked an office almost

      22   anyplace in Pinellas County, couldn't it?

      23        A    Depending on if the owner of the building

      24   was brave enough to withstand Scientology's threats.

      25        Q    But there was nothing that compelled you to

.                                                                916

       1   move your headquarters right just 20 feet away from

       2   the Bank of Clearwater Building, was there?

       3        A    Yes, in fact, there was.

       4        Q    You were compelled to do that?

       5        A    Yes, we are.

       6        Q    What was the compulsion?

       7        A    The compulsion was that one of the main

       8   reasons that we wanted to have an office in downtown

       9   Clearwater was to be available to people who were

      10   trying to escape from Scientology, so we wanted to be

      11   as close as we possibly could be to where those people

      12   were.

      13        Q    So you made the choice based on your own

      14   free will to get just as close as you possibly could

      15   to the Scientologist; is that correct?

      16        A    Yes.

      17        Q    And you know from your former association

      18   with Scientology that they are concerned about

      19   security, don't you?

      20        A    I know from my former association with

      21   Scientology that they --

      22        Q    Can you answer my question?

      23        A    Yes, I am.

      24            THE COURT:  She's trying to.  Let's give

      25       her a chance.

.                                                                917

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    All right.

       3        A    I know from my former association that they

       4   will do everything possible to destroy critics of

       5   Scientology.

       6        Q    Your Honor, that is not responsive to my

       7   question.  My question was you know that the

       8   Scientologists are concerned about security of their

       9   people, aren't they?

      10        A    And again I will say --

      11            MR. POPE:  I'm not getting a responsive

      12       answer out of her.

      13            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Wait a

      14       minute.

      15            THE WITNESS:  It is responsive, Your

      16       Honor.  The way he is wording the question

      17       isn't quite right.

      18            MR. POPE:  She wants me to ask her a

      19       different question.

      20            THE COURT:  Hold on.  I understand that.

      21       And I understand the answer she's trying to

      22       give.  Was security one of the issues that

      23       the Church was concerned about?

      24            THE WITNESS:  Well, the Church is

      25       concerned about security only in the sense

.                                                                918

       1       that they don't want their membership to be

       2       able to leave, but as far as --

       3            THE COURT:  In other words, they're

       4       worried from within rather than without?

       5            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

       6            THE COURT:  Okay.

       7   BY MR. POPE:

       8        Q    You're aware of that episode out in Oregon

       9   where somebody came into a Church facility and shot

      10   somebody and rendered them a paraplegic, aren't you?

      11        A    Yes.

      12        Q    You're aware that automobiles have been

      13   crashed into the front of the Ft. Harrison Building,

      14   aren't you?

      15        A    No, I wasn't aware of that, Mr. Pope.

      16        Q    Are you aware of a knife wielding fellow who

      17   I believe was the son of a deputy sheriff in Pinellas

      18   County scaling the wall at the Ft. Harrison Hotel and

      19   going in there?

      20        A    I think that came up in a hearing in this

      21   case.

      22        Q    And are you aware of bomb threats to the

      23   Scientologists in Clearwater and elsewhere?

      24        A    I'm not actually.

      25        Q    You aware of a bomb going off out at the

.                                                                919

       1   Hacienda Village; have you heard about that at all?

       2        A    I'm not sure if I have.

       3        Q    Well, the Lisa McPherson Trust brochure says

       4   our mission statement to expose the abusive and

       5   deceptive practices of Church of Scientology and to

       6   help those who have been victimized by it.

       7             Can you -- do you contend that you're moving

       8   in right next door and with the history of threats

       9   that events that plagued Scientology over the years

      10   that it is unreasonable for them to be concerned about

      11   your organization and the threat that your

      12   organization poses to them; do you think that's

      13   unreasonable?

      14        A    Can I answer that question in my own words?

      15        Q    Try.  I'd like to know if you think it's

      16   reasonable or unreasonable and you can explain your

      17   answer.

      18        A    Okay.  That's what I'll do.  I do know for

      19   sure that the Lisa McPherson Trust poses a great

      20   threat for Scientology because we have created a place

      21   where Scientologists who need a place to escape to can

      22   come and I know that the reason that they put the

      23   cameras on our doors in the front and the back and so

      24   that they can see, so that they could videotape any

      25   Scientologists who came into our building to try to

.                                                                920

       1   get help and that's why the cameras were out there.

       2        Q    But --

       3        A    And also -- let me finish.

       4        Q    All right.

       5        A    And the other reason that the cameras were

       6   put there was so that Scientology could videotape

       7   anybody who was associating with the Lisa McPherson

       8   Trust for the purpose of harassment and information

       9   gathering about those people.

      10        Q    And the harassment that you have suffered at

      11   the hands of Scientology since the injunction was

      12   entered has been excessive videotaping; is that right?

      13        A    Among other things, including being followed

      14   24 hours a day and one of your process servers told me

      15   about this and I believe he's now been fired for

      16   speaking to me about it.

      17        Q    And when you sent Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton

      18   out to inspect this --

      19        A    No, I didn't send them out to inspect.

      20        Q    What did you send them out for?

      21        A    I sent them out to take photographs of it as

      22   evidence for Judge Penick.

      23        Q    You didn't send them out to crawl up on a

      24   ladder and tamper with it?

      25        A    I sent them out to take photographs and they

.                                                                921

       1   had to get up on the ladder and move it so they could

       2   get a clear photo for Judge Penick.  That's the only

       3   reason that they got up on the ladder and that they

       4   moved it at all.  They weren't trying to do anything

       5   but take a clear photograph for the judge.

       6        Q    Well, there was ongoing litigation at the

       7   time between the LMT and the other defendants here and

       8   the Scientologists at the time they did this act,

       9   correct?

      10        A    You mean the injunction?

      11        Q    Yeah, this lawsuit, right?

      12        A    Yes.

      13        Q    It was ongoing?

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    Why didn't you just ask Mr. Merrett to file

      16   a motion for leave to inspect this or file a request

      17   that it be allowed to inspected instead of engaging in

      18   self-help under these tense circumstances?

      19            MR. MERRETT:  I'll object.  It's calling

      20       for a legal conclusion and assuming facts in

      21       evidence.  There's no self-help that's been

      22       demonstrated.

      23            Self-help is eviction of a tenant

      24        without leave of court, assistance from the

      25        sheriff, it's retrieval of a vehicle without

.                                                                922

       1        the assistance of the sheriff.  It's a

       2        loaded term and a legal term.

       3            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

       4            MR. HOWIE:  I join in the objection and

       5       I do believe that it is a misuse of the term

       6       and it does call for legal conclusions that

       7       this witness is not competent to arrive at.

       8            THE COURT:  Overruled.

       9   BY MR. POPE:

      10        Q    Can you answer that?

      11        A    Could you say it again?

      12        Q    Why did you not file a motion in this court

      13   before this judge and say we're suspicious of this

      14   camera out here or we're suspicious of these phone

      15   lines and we would like to inspect this to see if our

      16   suspicions are founded?  Why did you not do that?

      17        A    Well, I didn't know that that was something

      18   that could be done and also all I wanted them to do

      19   was take some photographs and that's all they did.

      20        Q    They didn't go up the ladder and touch it?

      21        A    Well, I mean, but the thing is that they

      22   couldn't take a photograph from down on the sidewalk

      23   because it wouldn't be clear to the judge what it was

      24   a photograph of.

      25             They had to get right -- they had to get a,

.                                                                923

       1   you know, judge, they had to get a photograph that

       2   showed you what was in the box and in order to get

       3   that angle, you know, they had to get up to that level

       4   and because the camera was -- because it's like here's

       5   the wall and here's the camera and it's angled so that

       6   you can literally see our door and you can't take a

       7   photograph -- you have to move it a little bit to be

       8   able to take a photograph that shows you dead on that

       9   it's a camera and that's the only reason that even

      10   moved it.

      11             They weren't moving it for any nefarious

      12   reason at all.  I mean I know these guys.  They're not

      13   doing that.

      14        Q    Ms. Brooks, over the last year that the LMT

      15   has been in Clearwater, how many staff members,

      16   Scientology staff members have taken up your offer to

      17   seek refuge in your office there or seek your

      18   protection?

      19        A    Several.

      20        Q    What are their names?

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.

      22            THE WITNESS:  I would rather not say.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I'm prepared

      24       at any time to start putting on the evidence

      25       what Scientology does to dissident, but I

.                                                                924

       1       will object at this point on the basis of

       2       relevance.

       3            THE COURT:  I think we've got a number

       4       sufficient.  Proceed.

       5            MR. POPE:  I would like to ask her what

       6       is meant by several, Your Honor.  Can you be

       7       a little bit more specific?

       8            THE COURT:  That's the question.

       9   BY MR. POPE:

      10        Q    Is that two?

      11            THE COURT:  Several can be many.  What

      12       does that mean?

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    How many?

      15        A    Well, you'll have to wait a second while I

      16   count, okay.

      17             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

      18             At least ten.

      19        Q    Are these staff members of the Church in

      20   Clearwater?

      21        A    Not all of them.

      22        Q    How many would be staff members of the

      23   Church in Clearwater?

      24        A    Well, do they have to be staff members

      25   or --

.                                                                925

       1        Q    Yeah, that's my question.  How many are

       2   staff members of the Church in Clearwater?

       3        A    Well, four.

       4        Q    Now, you are the President of LMT?

       5        A    Yes, I am.

       6        Q    Is that a salaried position?

       7        A    Yes, it is.

       8        Q    In addition to the salary you draw from LMT,

       9   has during the past five years Mr. Minton paid you

      10   additional monies personally?

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Relevance.

      12            MR. POPE:  Goes to the issue of

      13       prejudice, bias.

      14            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Proceed.

      15   BY MR. POPE:

      16        Q    Can you answer that question?

      17            MR. MERRETT:  I'm sorry, Your Honor.  Is

      18       Mr. Pope suggesting to the court that there's

      19       a hidden fondness for Scientology that has

      20       not yet been disclosed or a hidden hostility

      21       towards persons opposed to Scientology which

      22       would be devined by this evidence?

      23            It's clearly cumulative to the fact that

      24        she is President of the Lisa McPherson

      25        Trust.

.                                                                926

       1            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I think we're

       2       entitled to know the extent of the

       3       financial --

       4            MR. MERRETT:  It's discovery, Judge.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  What did you say?

       6            MR. MERRETT:  It's discovery, Judge.

       7            THE COURT:  Oh, I thought you said it's

       8       staggering.  Then I thought I would like

       9       to -- okay.

      10            I've got to admit it is discovery and

      11        she said that she has paid her extra or I'm

      12        not sure she has even answered the question.

      13            MR. POPE:  She hasn't.  I think I'm

      14       entitled to know that extent of the financial

      15       entanglement here.

      16            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I join in the

      17       objection.  I would add that Mr. Pope has

      18       already shown the court that she is in a

      19       salaried position.  I think that the amount

      20       of the salary is hardly relevant for purposes

      21       of establishing bias or prejudice.

      22            THE COURT:  I understand that the

      23       question is the amount of the salary.

      24            MR. HOWIE:  And that amount of any

      25       payment.

.                                                                927

       1            MR. POPE:  I was asking about personal

       2       payments from Mr. Minton, not salary payments

       3       from the LMT.

       4            THE COURT:  The prior witnesses have all

       5       testified as to the money that they have

       6       gotten over and above contract, etcetera,

       7       etcetera.  I'm going to allow it.  Proceed.

       8   BY MR. POPE:

       9        Q    So can you tell me how much Mr. Minton has

      10   personally paid you or paid on your behalf to others

      11   in the last five years?

      12            THE WITNESS:  Your Honor?

      13            THE COURT:  Yes, ma'am.

      14            THE WITNESS:  May I say something to

      15       you, please?

      16            THE COURT:  No.  I mean everybody has to

      17       hear whatever you have to say.

      18            THE WITNESS:  No, I don't mean for it to

      19       be private.  What I would appreciate is if

      20       you could understand that in every lawsuit in

      21       every case that Scientology has against any

      22       of the critics of Scientology, all they want

      23       to know is how much money Mr. Minton has

      24       given to everyone.  And I feel that Mr. Pope

      25       is delving in my personal life and trying to

.                                                                928

       1       help Scientology in an intelligence gathering

       2       activity for the purpose of things other than

       3       in this courtroom and I would really

       4       appreciate it if he would not be allowed to

       5       follow this line of questioning.

       6            THE COURT:  That I not be allowed to?

       7            THE WITNESS:  That he would not be

       8       allowed to.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, if I could be heard

      11       briefly on that, it is a fact that for

      12       Ms. Kobrin and others, Scientology has been

      13       on many fronts in a diligent effort to obtain

      14       this precise information.

      15            The amount of her salary is not

      16        relevant, the amount of the payments is not

      17        relevant, however I would ask that if the

      18        court deems that it is appropriate for this

      19        information to be disclosed here somehow

      20        that the court receive that information in

      21        camera thereby preserving the witness'

      22        privacy rights.

      23            THE COURT:  What I'll do is I'll reserve

      24       for further argument tomorrow.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

.                                                                929

       1            THE COURT:  Move on, Mr. Pope.

       2   BY MR. POPE:

       3        Q    Okay.  How much money has Mr. Minton put

       4   into the LMT since it was founded?

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Objection, relevance.

       6       Again, Jude, is the theory that there is some

       7       hidden connection here, that Mr. Minton is

       8       secretly favorable to the Scientology, the

       9       LMT and that in promoting work of L. Ron

      10       Hubbard or that the LMT has been quiet about

      11       being opposed to the way that Scientology

      12       behaves?

      13            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie?

      14            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I join in the

      15       objection.  And again I don't know how this

      16       shows bias or prejudice for this particular

      17       witness, what the LMT receives.

      18            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, there's money

      19       flowing all around here.  Money sometimes

      20       dictates loyalties.  It dictates what people

      21       think, sometime dictates what they say.  It's

      22       always a pertinent inquiry regarding

      23       motivation.

      24            THE COURT:  I understand that and again

      25       that will be another one you can argue to me

.                                                                930

       1       tomorrow.  But for the purpose of these

       2       proceedings as far as any argument about

       3       intent or the feelings of either this witness

       4       or Mr. Minton re the Church of Scientology, I

       5       think that's already been established clearly

       6       and unequivocally on the record and unless

       7       you know if you can show me that disclosing

       8       this money that it's going to grossly effect

       9       one way or the other the evidence so far has

      10       been presented as to at least the tie to LMT

      11       and the injunction by these two individuals,

      12       I just say let's move on.

      13   BY MR. POPE:

      14        Q    All right, Your Honor.  You complained that

      15   the videotaping of you, you consider that to be

      16   harassment?

      17        A    Very much so.

      18        Q    Now, you, LMT, and its folks engage in

      19   videotaping too, don't you?

      20        A    Yes, we do, however the kind of videotaping

      21   we engage in is very much different.  We don't engage

      22   in surveillance videotaping the way you do.  I'm

      23   sorry, excuse me Mr. Pope.  Not you, but the way

      24   Scientology does.

      25        Q    Okay.

.                                                                931

       1        A    It's not surveillance videotaping of -- we

       2   don't stand there outside of the doors of Scientology

       3   and hold up a video camera as soon as somebody walks

       4   out the door and follow them like this until they get

       5   out of sight.

       6             That's surveillance videotaping.  That's

       7   harassment.  I feel very strongly that it is.

       8             When we videotape, we're videotaping

       9   activities that are occurring, we're videotaping

      10   interaction that's occurring.

      11             We're not just surveilling the

      12   Scientologists.  That's not our purpose and we've

      13   never done that.

      14        Q    What is your purpose of the videotaping that

      15   you do that makes it less objectionable than the

      16   videotaping that the Scientologists do?

      17        A    Well, for me, I think that it's important

      18   for people to be able to see the interaction that goes

      19   on between Scientology and Scientology critics,

      20   because in most organizations, especially any kind of

      21   nonprofit organization, certainly religions, you know,

      22   there is a great concern for the right of free speech

      23   of others, you know, any other nonprofit organization

      24   allows for criticism of them without harassment of the

      25   critics and there have been several instances that

.                                                                932

       1   that we have been able to get on videotape which has

       2   made it very clear that Scientology was trying to

       3   curtail the free speech of critics of Scientology and

       4   we feel very strongly at the Lisa McPherson Trust that

       5   it's important for people to understand that

       6   Scientology does not allow any criticism at all and

       7   that they will do whatever they have to do to silence

       8   criticism and so whenever we have an opportunity to

       9   put that on videotape, we do, but it's still, I still

      10   say that it's a totally different kind of thing from

      11   surveillance videotaping intended to intimidate

      12   people, especially me.

      13        Q    And you're intimidated by the videotaping

      14   that Scientology does of you; is that right?

      15        A    I was intimidated in particular by the

      16   videotaping that Antonio was doing on me on a daily

      17   basis at the time that I asked them to do these

      18   photographs.

      19        Q    May I have a moment, Your Honor?

      20            THE COURT:  You may.

      21             (A pause in the proceedings took place.)

      22            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

      23       Honor.



.                                                                933

       1                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. MERRETT:

       3        Q    Ma'am, Mr. Pope asked you about the fellows

       4   walking and shot up on the Scientology Orgs up in

       5   Oregon, I guess it was?

       6        A    Yes.

       7        Q    He was himself a Scientologist, wasn't he.

       8        A    I actually don't know.

       9        Q    Okay.  Now, can you tell the court please

      10   the number of fixed cameras that the LMT maintains

      11   conducting surveillance of Scientology property?

      12        A    None.

      13        Q    Can you tell the judge the number of fixed

      14   surveillance cameras that the LMT maintains anywhere?

      15        A    None.

      16        Q    Do you have one in your hall?

      17        A    Oh, sorry.  We have cameras inside right --

      18   well, Your Honor, the way it works is you walk in the

      19   door of our building and then there is a big hallway

      20   and it goes the length of the building from Watterson

      21   to Ft. Harrison, then the entrance of our office is

      22   about a third of the way down on -- well, if you're

      23   going in the Watterson door about a third of the way

      24   down on the right and we have a camera, we had a

      25   camera installed that has one camera pointing to one

.                                                                934

       1   door and one camera pointing to the other door.

       2        Q    And this was on the inside?

       3        A    It's on the inside.

       4        Q    Do you have any cameras set up outside that

       5   just watch passers by or watch Scientologists?

       6        A    No.

       7        Q    Now, your public and vocal opposition to

       8   Scientology, can you tell the court whether or not

       9   that was underway before you met Mr. Minton?

      10        A    Oh, yes, I started in 1993.  I didn't meet

      11   Mr. Minton until 1997.

      12        Q    So it would be fair to say that Mr. Minton

      13   did not get you involved in opposition of Scientology?

      14        A    Very definitely, he did not.

      15        Q    Now, you talked about the type of

      16   videotaping that the LMT does or that you have done

      17   for the LMT.  Did have you a German government

      18   official visiting Clearwater in July of 2000?

      19        A    Yes, we did.

      20        Q    Did you have Mr. Bunker of the LMT videotape

      21   this event?

      22        A    The event?

      23        Q    Her arrival at the airport?

      24        A    Yes.

      25        Q    Okay.  Was that the purpose of gathering the

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       1   kind of information and documentation you talked

       2   about?

       3        A    Yes, it was.

       4        Q    Okay.  Have you seen that videotape?

       5        A    Yes, I have.

       6        Q    Let me ask you if you've seen this one, the

       7   one entitled Ursula Caberta arrives 7/22?

       8        A    That's the videotape.

       9        Q    Is that and example of the kind of

      10   videotaping that the LMT does?

      11        A    Yes, it is.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I think

      13       Mr. Pope will want an opportunity to review

      14       this one.  I have a copy for him.

      15            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the arrangement

      16       with respect to defensively used videotapes

      17       that were not produced in advance as this on

      18       was not is that we adjourn the proceedings

      19       until I have an opportunity to review and

      20       then it comes in and we're getting pretty

      21       close to five o'clock now so I would suggest

      22       that.

      23            MR. MERRETT:  That's fine.

      24            THE COURT:  Let's do that.  We'll give

      25       you a chance to view it and we'll pick this

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       1       up tomorrow morning at this point in time.

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Actually,w hat I'd like to

       3       do if you don't mind, I can probably do it

       4       before five is to finish so that I don't have

       5       awkwardness since --

       6            THE COURT:  I'll tell you what I'll do.

       7       You got a couple more quick questions?

       8            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       9            THE COURT:  Let's finish this.  I won't

      10       have to put her under a gag order tonight

      11       other than, okay, she is a party so I guess

      12       that's all right.  She's on the stand, and

      13       then tomorrow you want to recall her to

      14       present or you and Mr. Pope work something

      15       like that, we'll do that.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      17            THE COURT:  Go ahead.

      18   BY MR. MERRETT:

      19        Q    Let me ask you this.  As far as the use of

      20   the camera and videotaping by the LMT, does that

      21   generally or nearly universally is that occasions when

      22   there are critics or people affiliated with the LMT in

      23   the picture?

      24        A    Of course.

      25            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

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       1       anything further.

       2            MR. HOWIE:  No questions, Your Honor.

       3            MR. POPE:  Nothing at this time.

       4            THE COURT:  All right.  Ma'am, you may

       5       step down and have a seat back by your

       6       attorney.  And ladies and gentlemen, as

       7       Mr. Pope did note, it's almost five o'clock.

       8       This is a good breaking time for today.

       9       Tomorrow morning nine o'clock back here, yes.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  May Mr. Henson be excused?

      11            MR. POPE:  As far as I'm concerned he

      12       can, Your Honor.  Although it would mean, I

      13       don't know what the court's plans are for the

      14       end of this hearing.

      15            THE COURT:  Yeah, when I get down to the

      16       end if there is something that, you know, if

      17       I do find that he had violated the

      18       injunction, is he in agreement I can go ahead

      19       with sentencing at that time?

      20            MR. HENSON:  Yes, Your Honor.

      21            THE COURT:  Let the record so reflect.

      22       Okay.

      23            MR. HENSON:  Thank you, Your Honor.

      24            MR. POPE:  Your Honor?

      25            THE COURT:  Yeah.

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       1            MR. POPE:  For purposes of planning, do

       2       we begin at nine, did you say?

       3            THE COURT:  Yes, is that all right?

       4       Stop at five.

       5            MR. POPE:  I wonder if we could get an

       6       idea of just the number of witnesses they

       7       contemplate putting on tomorrow and whether

       8       they think they're going to be able to finish

       9       in one day or are we going to have to do mor?

      10            MR. MERRETT:  I expect that I would be

      11       able to finish tomorrow.  I would guess

      12       probably four more witnesses, two of them I

      13       would expect to be fairly brief, although

      14       actually that's nonsense is what that is,

      15       judge.  As far a brevity.

      16            I have only one or two whom I expect

      17        would be a total of an hour or more.  But I

      18        do expect to have four or five more

      19        witnesses.

      20            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      21            MR. HOWIE:  I anticipate at least one

      22       approximately an hour.

      23            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.  Anything, you

      24       have rebuttal or anything?

      25            MR. POPE:  Perhaps, but let me ask this

.                                                                939

       1       question.  It sounds to me like we're going

       2       to have a full day tomorrow.

       3            THE COURT:  Right.

       4            MR. POPE:  And if we don't conclude

       5       tomorrow, what do we do then?

       6            THE COURT:  Monday.

       7            MR. POPE:  Monday.

       8            THE COURT:  Nine o'clock.  I don't see

       9       any way we're going to get to closings

      10       tomorrow anyway.

      11            MR. POPE:  Correct.

      12            THE COURT:  And I know you're going to

      13       at least want the weekend to collect your

      14       thoughts if you did present all your evidence

      15       tomorrow.  And so I know we're looking at

      16       Monday, and so you all know for planning --

      17       well, let me state it this way.

      18            You're foremost on my calendar.  You

      19        have my complete attention until this is

      20        taken care of so if that takes all next

      21        week, you got.  Thank you.  Have you good

      22        night.

      23             (Thereupon, the trial was adjourned to

      24        reconvene at 9:00 AM.)

      25                     End of Volume VII

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