CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

                      IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
                          PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

                           CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

           ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida           :
           corporation,                            :
                               Petitioner,         :
           vs.                                     :
           ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL.,          :
                               Respondents.        :

                 BEFORE:       The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

                 PLACE:        Pinellas County Judicial Building
                               545 First Avenue North
                               St. Petersburg, Florida

                 DATE:         February 19, 2001

                 TIME:         Commencing at 9:00 A.M.

                 REPORTED BY:  JACKIE L. OSTROM
                               Court Reporter

                            ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
                                               Pages 1182 -1265
                                               Volume X

                      ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
                                P.O. BOX 35
                            CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
                               (727) 443-0992



           The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

           911 Chestnut
           Clearwater, Florida

           3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
           Los Angeles, California  90010

           Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship

           2716 Herschel Street
           Jacksonville, Florida  32205

           5720 Central Avenue
           St. Petersburg, Florida  33707

           Attorneys for Robert Minton and
           Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.

.                                                                1184

       1                        PROCEEDINGS

       2            THE COURT:  There is a transcript here.

       3       I'm going to mark it filed, stamp it filed,

       4       and that's been filed.

       5            All right.  We ready to proceed?

       6            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.  At this time I

       7       would ask to publish the videotape of

       8       Mr. Henson's second conference with the

       9       police.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Henson?

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

      12            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope.

      13            MR. POPE:  We have no objection to the

      14       publication of that particular videotape.

      15            THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, pull the

      16       equipment and get set up and we'll do that.

      17       And, okay, I'll step down and are there any

      18       words?

      19            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, but I don't know that

      20       they're audible.

      21            THE COURT:  Does she need to be taking

      22       it down?

      23            MR. MERRETT:  I don't think so.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  I'll swing around out

      25       there.

.                                                                1185

       1             (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the

       2        court.)

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Yes.  That's all of that

       4       tape, Your Honor.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.  Just a minute.

       6             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       7        place.)

       8            All right.  You going to play another

       9        tape?

      10            MR. MERRETT:  I'm not, no, Your Honor.

      11            MR. POPE:  I would like to make one

      12       observation about that tape.  At the

      13       beginning of it, it shows Mrs. Bezazian was

      14       part of the group who was listening to the

      15       presentation by the officer.

      16            THE COURT:  Okay.  Hold on just a

      17       minute.

      18            All right.  You going to put that in

      19        evidence?

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, Your Honor, with

      21       leave of the court.

      22            THE COURT:  Please.  I think that's your

      23       number 11, if I'm not mistaken.

      24             (Defendant LMT's Exhibit Number 13 was

      25        admitted into evidence.)

.                                                                1186

       1            MS. KOBRIN:  Your Honor, my notes show

       2       that you have marked through number 12.

       3            THE COURT:  So, it's number 12?

       4            MS. KOBRIN:  No, 13.

       5            THE COURT:  Good.  Let me make that 13.

       6       Thank you.  Okay. next?

       7            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I believe we

       8       had actually rested and took that out of

       9       turn.

      10            THE COURT:  Okay.  I didn't know if you

      11       wanted anything else.

      12            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, where we left

      13       off was I had put Mark Bunker on the stand

      14       and completed my examination of him and we

      15       want to proceed by calling Robert Minton.

      16            THE COURT:  Well, wait a minute.  I

      17       think there was some videos out there that

      18       Mr. Pope was going to have an opportunity to

      19       look at over the weekend and whether those

      20       videos were -- he reserved his right to

      21       cross-examine and do what he wanted to do

      22       about those videos.

      23            Now, are you going to be calling those

      24        videos later through Mr. Minton or?

      25            MR. HOWIE:  Part of the purpose of

.                                                                1187

       1       Mr. Minton's direct examination would be to

       2       establish the relevance of this one video and

       3       I understand that Mr. Pope has already viewed

       4       the video and the other video, the second

       5       video is this here, however I wish to

       6       establish relevance of this video through

       7       Mr. Minton's testimony.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.

       9            MR. POPE:  I have looked at the video

      10       and we'll object to it when it's offered, but

      11       if he wants to proceed in that fashion,

      12       that's fine.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.  You going to call

      14       Mr. Minton?

      15            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, sir.

      16   Thereupon:

      17                       ROBERT MINTON

      18   was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was

      19   examined and testified as follows:

      20                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      21   BY MR. HOWIE:

      22        Q    Mr. Minton, please state your full name?

      23        A    Robert S. Minton; M-I-N-T-O-N.

      24        Q    What is your address, please?

      25        A    137 Fremont Road, Sam Down, New Hampshire.

.                                                                1188

       1        Q    Is it correct that you are a member of the

       2   critical movement against the Church of Scientology?

       3        A    That's correct.

       4        Q    And is there any question that you're an

       5   outspoken opponent of the Church of Scientology Flag

       6   Service Organization and its affiliated corporations

       7   and organizations?

       8        A    No, sir.

       9        Q    How did you get involved in this issue?

      10        A    Very much like the testimony we've heard

      11   here from Keith Henson and Grady Ward being, you know,

      12   internet activists who were outraged by Scientology's

      13   attack on free speech by means of Helena Kobrin

      14   attempting to remove the discussion group from the

      15   internet where critics of Scientology gathered to

      16   discuss their experiences while they were in the

      17   Church.

      18        Q    How long ago was that?

      19        A    That was at the beginning of 1995.

      20        Q    Okay.  What is your connection or

      21   relationship to the Lisa McPherson Trust?

      22        A    I am the Chairman of the Board.  I was the

      23   original incorporator of the company and continue in a

      24   capacity as Chairman of the Board, but not a

      25   stockholder in the company.

.                                                                1189

       1        Q    Why did you establish the Lisa McPherson

       2   Trust to begin with?

       3        A    Well, the Church of Scientology had

       4   basically destroyed all previous opposition that

       5   existed to Scientology in the anti-cult area, namely

       6   the Cult Awareness Network which was a national

       7   network that opposed not only Scientology but many

       8   other cults.  And through a bizarre series of events

       9   that the Church of Scientology now owns the Cult

      10   Awareness Network and answers the phone as the Cult

      11   Awareness Network offering help to people who

      12   supposedly are having trouble with cults.

      13        Q    Now, you've heard I belive from Ms. Brooks'

      14   testimony and the testimony and evidence we have heard

      15   here concerning the actual purpose of the Lisa

      16   McPherson Trust.  In your own words what is that

      17   purpose?

      18        A    Well, the generalities of it are to expose

      19   the abuse on deceptive practices of the Church of

      20   Scientology.  Ms. Brooks hit several of the

      21   highlights, but she forgot a few important ones, I

      22   believe.

      23             The main important one being to help the

      24   victims of Scientology recover from the abusive

      25   experiences they had while within the Church and this

.                                                                1190

       1   is a very long and complicated process to help

       2   someone, for example, like Tory he Bezazian who was

       3   for 30 years in this organization and basically, you

       4   know, just dumped out in an unceremonious wheelbarrow

       5   in the streets.

       6             The other key component is helping people

       7   get their money back from the Church of Scientology.

       8   You know, this is people who wish to get back in the

       9   millions of dollars or the hundreds of thousands of

      10   dollars or $50,000, whatever the case may be.

      11             We work with them to get that money back so

      12   that they can help rebuild their life because

      13   typically they have given all their money to the

      14   Church by the time the Church is finished with them.

      15        Q    Now, there have been several questions about

      16   you giving money to other parties in the case.  Why

      17   have you funded the critics of the Church of

      18   Scientology?

      19        A    Well, many of the critics we're talking

      20   about are people who had been in Scientology.  They

      21   got out and basically had no money.

      22             They were fighting initially in the court

      23   system to try to get some redress against what

      24   happened to them in Scientology.  Some of them became

      25   subjects of the Scientology Fair Game policies and

.                                                                1191

       1   were sued by the Church.

       2             You know, we heard in the case of Mr. Lerma.

       3   He was sued by the Church.  He had a couple years

       4   worth of the litigation going on.  And it's like, you

       5   know, being here in Judge Penick's courtroom for the

       6   last seven days.

       7             There is not a whole lot you can do with the

       8   rest of your life when you're in court all the time,

       9   and many of these people were operating on a pro se

      10   basis.  You know, they were trying to run their own

      11   cases because they just didn't have any money and I

      12   was trying to help level the playing field a little

      13   bit between the litigation machine of Scientology and

      14   these people trying to exercise some basic rights

      15   under the constitution here.

      16        Q    Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust is located at

      17   the 33 North Ft. Harrison.  Why did you rent that

      18   particular building for this purpose?

      19        A    Well, first of all, I bought the building,

      20   not rented.

      21        Q    Correct, purchased it.

      22        A    Our intention was not to -- well, first our

      23   intention was to be close to Scientology in downtown

      24   Clearwater.  And by close, I mean, there four or five

      25   office buildings in downtown Clearwater which we

.                                                                1192

       1   wanted to be in and we concluded arrangements in all

       2   four or five of those office buildings to rent space.

       3             In every single instance the Church of

       4   Scientology came in within 20 minutes of 30 minutes of

       5   us leaving and sat down with they called DA packs to

       6   the agent or owners of the buildings and explained

       7   that, you know that, Minton --

       8            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

       9       Objection.  We're getting into hearsay here.

      10       He hasn't established that he has personal

      11       knowledge of these events at all.

      12            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie?

      13            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, this is not

      14       being submitted to prove the truth of the

      15       matter asserted, but rather what obstacles or

      16       frustrations Mr. Minton had in attempting to

      17       acquire property for this purpose in downtown

      18       Clearwater.

      19            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the obstacles

      20       Mr. Minton may have had to acquire property

      21       in downtown Clearwater do not in any way have

      22       any probative value on the issue of whether

      23       he or any of the other defendants are

      24       violating the court's order.

      25            We're getting back into the Scientology

.                                                                1193

       1        is bad guys approach to this instead of

       2        sticking to what's really at stake here.

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, in order to

       4       establish bias or prejudice on the part of

       5       the other witnesses, particularly Heather

       6       Brooks, Mr. Pope emphatically cross-examined

       7       on the issue of why are you so close to the

       8       Church of Scientology.  This in part is to

       9       remedy that effort.

      10            THE COURT:  Overruled.  Proceed.

      11   BY MR. HOWIE:

      12        Q    Go ahead, and without actually entering into

      13   the conversations you had, what was the result of your

      14   efforts to buy this property?  The other property, not

      15   33 North Ft. Harrison?

      16        A    Well, we found that despite being eminently

      17   qualified financially to lease these office buildings

      18   that there were other extraneous matters that were

      19   brought to the attention of the property owners

      20   concerning bigoted and hateful activities of the

      21   people associated with the Lisa McPherson Trust that

      22   were brought to the attention of the property owners.

      23        Q    As result you did not acquire this property?

      24        A    As a result of that we were unable to

      25   complete any arrangements to lease office space in any

.                                                                1194

       1   of the buildings in downtown Clearwater and so we

       2   began to look for a place to buy as the only logical

       3   alternative if we wanted to be in downtown Clearwater.

       4             The first building that we went into was a

       5   Calvary owned baptist church.  Building during the

       6   time we were being shown around that building, three

       7   Scientologists came in and started yelling at the man

       8   that was showing us around that Minton is a criminal,

       9   Brooks is a criminal, Prince is a criminal.  You

      10   shouldn't have anything to do with these people,

      11   they're terrible people.

      12             The second building we looked at was sort of

      13   catty-corner across the street and that was the

      14   33 North Ft. Harrison building.  The time when we were

      15   initially being shown the building by the owner, Scott

      16   Brower, in the first room that we went into seven

      17   Scientologists came in the door shouting the same

      18   things, led by Ian Shillington, who was the man

      19   shouting Nazi, go home to Ursula Caberta, and again

      20   they were trying to persuade Mr. Brower to have

      21   nothing to do with us because we were terrible people,

      22   but in a cause we concluded a transaction with

      23   Mr. Brower, a perfectly acceptable transaction, and

      24   then the day of or the day before the closing or a

      25   couple days before the closing Mr. Shaw had been over

.                                                                1195

       1   to see Mr. Brower a number of times and there were

       2   attempts made to offer twice as much as we were paying

       3   for the building if they would not sell to us, if he

       4   would not sell it, but he had made a contract and he

       5   stuck to it and I was very please and proud to have

       6   done a business transaction with such a distinguished

       7   man.

       8        Q    Now, I note that obviously we've noticed

       9   that people on your side of the courtroom have been

      10   wearing white roses.  Why are you wearing a white

      11   rose?

      12        A    Well, in Nazi Germany there was a small

      13   group of students called the White Rose Society who

      14   stood up to Hitler in a way which no one else in

      15   Germany was doing and a public and very vocal way and

      16   unfortunately all of the students in this movement

      17   were killed by the Nazis, but it's in memory of that

      18   group in our own fight against a totalitarian

      19   institution similar to the Nazis that we wear these.

      20        Q    Now, you have indicated already that you're

      21   an outspoken opponent of Church of Scientology.  Have

      22   you received any affirmative recognition or awards for

      23   your opposition to the Church of Scientology?

      24        A    Yes.  Yesterday, I think it was, there was a

      25   lot of discussion about Europe and Scientology's

.                                                                1196

       1   involvement there.  In June of 2000 I was given what's

       2   called the Alternative Charlemagne Award by a group

       3   calling itself the European American Citizens

       4   Commission on Human Rights and Religious Freedom and

       5   the purpose of that award was to recognize, you know,

       6   my stand for human rights and religious freedom in the

       7   word, particularly in the arena of organizations

       8   opposed by Scientology who are deprived of their own

       9   religious freedom.

      10        Q    New, we saw a videotape earlier in this

      11   hearing of the arrival of Ursula Caberta at the Tampa

      12   airport and the Church of Scientology reaction to it.

      13   What was incident all about?

      14        A    Well, the key thing that Scientology has

      15   been very concerned about other than our mere presence

      16   in Clearwater, is that we have established very strong

      17   ties to not only to the European anti-cult community,

      18   but particularly strong ties to the governments in

      19   Germany and France concerning our fights against the

      20   Scientology abuses and deceptions.

      21             Mrs. Caberta, while being merely the head of

      22   the State of Hamburg's task force on Scientology,

      23   because of its importance at first as a state and

      24   because of the important work that that task force

      25   does, many of the other states within Germany followed

.                                                                1197

       1   the lead of the Hamburg government working office on

       2   Scientology and therefore Scientology views most of

       3   their problems in Germany as a direct result of

       4   Mrs. Caberta's very good work as far as she is

       5   concerned, as far as I'm concerned and as far as the

       6   German government is concerned.  Finding ways to keep

       7   Scientology technology out of the business community

       8   in the way that it has been done in a very deceptive

       9   manner.

      10        Q    Now, I want to review the remaining

      11   allegations in the order to show cause with you and I

      12   want to do that in chronological order.  I want to

      13   start out the so-called spy camera incident on

      14   December 4 of 2000, which appears in the order to show

      15   cause dated January 4, 2001 at Paragraphs 3A and 3B.

      16             Now, just by way of introduction, the

      17   allegations against you is that on December 4, 2000,

      18   first John Merrett and then you climbed the ladder,

      19   that you grabbed and twisted the spy camera and you

      20   took photographs of it, that a police officer warned

      21   both you to stop doing what you were doing to leave

      22   and that you blocked a bread delivery at an entrance

      23   to the Clearwater Bank Building.

      24             Now, you have seen the videotape of that

      25   incident, have you not?

.                                                                1198

       1        A    Yes, I have.

       2        Q    Now, before climbing the ladder to

       3   photograph the camera, before you and Mr. Merrett

       4   climbed the ladder to investigate the camera, what

       5   were your own observations concerning the camera and

       6   the surrounding area of the wall of the camera, your

       7   own observations?

       8        A    You mean just as to the location of the

       9   camera.

      10        Q    Location of the camera and anything that was

      11   pertinent to the camera, what were your basic

      12   observations to the camera and the immediate area?

      13        A    Well, in the immediate area there was

      14   nothing happening.  You know, other than people

      15   standing on the sidewalk ready to have a look at this

      16   camera which was at the time we started to look at it,

      17   it was sitting up against the Motomco Building, also

      18   known as the rat bait building, you know, but with a

      19   conduit, metal conduit going along the side of the

      20   Motomco or rat bait building and then attached

      21   permanently to the Scientology building, but what was

      22   also clear is that where the conduit coming out of the

      23   junction box went to a, you know, like a circular

      24   thing that I guess is used to adjust or move that

      25   camera and the part of the conduit, the U-shaped kind

.                                                                1199

       1   of conduit coming into it so it could move and when

       2   Mr. Merrett first went up there, when he first went up

       3   the ladder, you know, to take a picture or several

       4   pictures, he, you know, put his hands to the bottom of

       5   this cameras and moved it.

       6             You know, this was a one handed job.  He

       7   could have done it with one finger.  There was

       8   nothing -- there was no rigidity whatsoever in the

       9   movement of that camera.

      10        Q    Did you notice anything hanging off or

      11   attached to this junction box apart from the conduit?

      12        A    A wire going down into the joint phone box.

      13        Q    And who first brought this junction box to

      14   your attention?

      15        A    It was John Merrett.  I've known about the

      16   junction box for some time, the camera up there.

      17        Q    Who first advised you that there was a

      18   camera there?

      19        A    I think it was Grady Ward, sometime

      20   previously.

      21        Q    Now, the videotape shows you photographing

      22   the spy camera.  What was your purpose in doing that?

      23        A    Well, John said Stacy wanted some pictures

      24   to put in an order to show cause and you know wanted

      25   them to present in this particular case.

.                                                                1200

       1        Q    All right.  And why did you and Mr. Merrett

       2   feel it was necessary do use a ladder to do this?

       3        A    Well, you know, it's just -- we were using

       4   an Olympus D600 digital camera which has a very, very

       5   minor zoom capability.

       6             From the ground you couldn't get a good

       7   picture of the junction box with the two cameras

       8   contained inside.  So it was necessary to get up to it

       9   so you actually take a straight on picture to see what

      10   it was.

      11        Q    Okay.  Now, the videotape shows Mr. Merrett

      12   going up the ladder before you did.  In your

      13   observations that day what did you see Mr. Merrett do

      14   before you climbed the ladder?

      15        A    He moved the camera and proceeded to take a

      16   picture and failed at taking a picture and, you know,

      17   I said I know how to use the camera.  You know, I'll

      18   come up and do it.

      19             The problem was that he wasn't familiar with

      20   the macro mode on the camera and as we were close to

      21   the camera it wouldn't, the focus would not lock in

      22   unless we shifted it into macro mode.

      23             I knew how to do that so I said I'll go up

      24   the ladder and take the pictures.

      25        Q    Now, you described how Mr. Merrett moved the

.                                                                1201

       1   junction box that contained the camera.  Did he appear

       2   to have any trouble or resistance in pivoting the

       3   camera?

       4        A    None whatsoever.  It was perfectly flexible.

       5        Q    Do you know why he moved the camera?

       6        A    To get a straight on picture of it.  You

       7   know, eye level, straight on picture because it's not,

       8   you know, the cameras themselves that are in there are

       9   not particularly visible as cameras.  You know,

      10   they're designed to be spy like.

      11             They're designed to be -- well, they're

      12   sitting in a junction box, you know.  They're there

      13   for a reason, for spying and, you know, they don't

      14   exactly make them obvious.

      15        Q    And when Mr. Merrett --

      16            THE COURT:  Hold on just a minute.  I

      17       need to do something.

      18             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      19        place.)

      20            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, for the

      21       information of the court I will be using

      22       exhibit seven for him.

      23            THE COURT:  You're going to be using

      24       that?

      25            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, sir.

.                                                                1202

       1            THE COURT:  All right.  That's what I

       2       wanted to do.  Let's do this.  We've been

       3       going for about an hour.  Let's just a short

       4       ten minute break and then we'll switch to

       5       this and Mr. Minton, you're on the stand.  If

       6       you want to use the restroom, there are rest

       7       rooms in the jury room.  We'll come back and

       8       we'll get started.

       9             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      10        which the proceedings continued.)

      11            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      12   BY MR. HOWIE:

      13        Q    May it please the court, Mr. Minton, when we

      14   went out on break I was asking you some questions

      15   about Mr. Merrett tipping the camera, the spy camera

      16   its conduit?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    When Mr. Merrett did that, did you hear

      19   anything snap or break?

      20        A    No.

      21        Q    Why did you then climb the ladder after he

      22   came down?

      23        A    As I said, he wasn't familiar with the macro

      24   function on this Olympus digital camera and I was and

      25   I said I'd be happy to take the pictures.

.                                                                1203

       1        Q    And when you climbed the ladder, the

       2   videotape shows you placing your hands on the box, as

       3   well, and moving it.  Why did you then move the spy

       4   camera?

       5        A    For the same presumable reason he did, in

       6   order to get a straight on picture of the camera from,

       7   you know, as many sides of it as possible just to

       8   clearly show what it was.

       9            THE COURT:   Mr. Howie, I'm not sure I

      10       can wait for you to get around to this.  But

      11       will somebody please have him step down and

      12       draw for me or explain to me exactly where

      13       this spy camera and what the camera -- what's

      14       going on here?

      15            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, Your Honor.  If I may

      16       take Exhibit Seven I'll utilize that.

      17            THE COURT:  Okay.

      18   BY MR. HOWIE:

      19        Q    Mr. Minton, I'm going to be showing I

      20   believe that's Petitioner's Exhibit Seven and I'll ask

      21   you to point out to Judge Penick where the junction

      22   box is now in that picture as depicted in the picture.

      23            THE COURT:  Let Mr. Pope come up here so

      24       he can see what's going on up here.


.                                                                1204

       1   BY MR. HOWIE:

       2        Q    Just point out where the junction box is now

       3   in that picture.

       4        A    Yeah.  This, is to my recollection from the

       5   day of this event, is not where the junction box was

       6   but this is the junction box.

       7        Q    All right.  Now, using your pen, please

       8   point out to Judge Penick where the junction box was

       9   when you were actually looking at it and manipulating

      10   it?

      11        A    Over on to the rat bait building.  Probably

      12   right to -- I assume they didn't move it up or down.

      13   I would think that it would be on top of the brick,

      14   the first brick.

      15        Q    All right.  Now, concerning that junction

      16   box, was it fully over against the brick face off the

      17   rat bat building or partially; how would you describe

      18   that?

      19        A    From my recollection it was fully on the rat

      20   bait building and painted the same color as the rat

      21   bait building.

      22        Q    All right.  The brackets that you described

      23   that the conduit pivoted on, where was that attached?

      24        A    Well, it's very hard to see.  I'm not sure

      25   from this picture, but because as I said the camera

.                                                                1205

       1   appears to have been moved back, but the brackets

       2   would have been, you know, going in a, sort of making

       3   a 90 degree turn towards the Clearwater Bank Building

       4   out of the back of this.  When I say the back, I mean

       5   the back side of this.

       6            THE COURT:  Are you trying to tell me

       7       that inside that box that looks like a --

       8            MR. MINTON:  An electrical --

       9            THE COURT:  Electrical conduit box?

      10            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      11            THE COURT:  There was a camera in there?

      12            MR. MINTON:  Two.

      13            THE COURT:  Two cameras in there?

      14            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      15            THE COURT:  In that thing?

      16            MR. MINTON:  Yes, inside it.

      17            THE COURT:  I see.  Okay.

      18            MR. MINTON:  Facing -- there is two

      19       cameras facing over the rat bait building

      20       towards the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      21            THE COURT:  I see.  Okay.

      22   BY MR. HOWIE:

      23        Q    All right.  If I can take that exhibit back

      24   from you then.  By the way, Mr. Minton an exhibit was

      25   entered by Mr. Merrett earlier in the hearing of a

.                                                                1206

       1   junction box.  Did you have an opportunity to look at

       2   that junction box at that time?

       3        A    I have seen the junction box, yes.

       4        Q    Is that junction box fairly and accurately

       5   represented by the junction box that you were dealing

       6   with here?

       7        A    It does.

       8        Q    Now, at one point -- by the way, did you

       9   have any trouble moving the camera?

      10        A    No, it rotated on that bar, you know.

      11        Q    Was there any resistance to it at all when

      12   you moved it?

      13        A    None, whatsoever.

      14        Q    All right.  When you did move it did you

      15   hear anything snap or break?

      16        A    No.

      17        Q    Now, the tape shows you at one point moving

      18   the ladder of few feet further south.  Why did you do

      19   you do that?

      20        A    To get pictures from the other side of it.

      21        Q    Do you recall any photos took of the spy

      22   camera?

      23        A    I think there were nine in all, a couple

      24   of -- well, two of which, you know, was still out of

      25   focus with the macro thing and the work of any use.

.                                                                1207

       1        Q    And you had an opportunity to see these

       2   pictures after they were printed, didn't you?

       3        A    I saw them on the computer.  I didn't

       4   actually see them printed until some time later.

       5        Q    All right.  And these would be the

       6   photographs that were in fact filed with the court,

       7   were these photographs that you took that day?

       8        A    Yes.

       9        Q    Now, what did you do with the spy camera

      10   when you were finished?

      11        A    Moved it back up against the wall where it

      12   was.

      13        Q    Did you return it to the same original

      14   position that it was before you and Mr. Merrett

      15   started this?

      16        A    Absolutely.  You know, at no time, at no

      17   time did we, you know, poke into the holes where the

      18   lenses of the camera's were.  You know, it was just,

      19   you know, if we wanted to be destructive of the

      20   camera, you know, it would have been easy to just slap

      21   it over the wall.

      22        Q    More specifically, you've heard the

      23   allegation during this hearing that the camera was out

      24   of focus once you were finished with it.  Do you know

      25   of anything that you or Mr. Merrett did to throw off

.                                                                1208

       1   the focus of the camera?

       2        A    Absolutely not.  The only thing that could

       3   have changed the focus was moving the camera back a

       4   few inches as it appears to have been moved back once

       5   they retechnically oriented it.

       6        Q    You're saying move as it's indicated in the

       7   Exhibit Seven that I just showed you?

       8        A    Correct.

       9        Q    Now, did you touch any part of this junction

      10   box, the spy camera, other than the outside of the

      11   junction box that day?

      12        A    No.

      13        Q    The allegation was that both you and

      14   Mr. Merrett grabbed and twisted the camera and from

      15   that I'm quoting from the order to show cause.  How

      16   would you characterize how you and Mr. Merrett handled

      17   the camera?

      18        A    Carefully.  We carefully moved it and

      19   carefully moved it back.

      20        Q    Okay.  Now, at any time during the entire

      21   incident did you see anyone that you recognized as

      22   being a member of the Church of Scientology or who

      23   advised you that they were a member of Church of

      24   Scientology who came within ten feet of your position

      25   that day?

.                                                                1209

       1        A    No one.

       2        Q    Did anybody complain out loud in your

       3   presence that you or Mr. Merrett were in their way or

       4   blocking their path?

       5        A    No.

       6        Q    Concerning the bread delivery which is

       7   depicted on the videotape, did you hear anyone

       8   complain that you or Mr. Merrett were in the way of

       9   the bread delivery?

      10        A    No.

      11        Q    And was the bread delivery in fact able to

      12   go through the door while you were on the ladder as

      13   far as you know?

      14        A    Yes.  The time that I really noticed the

      15   bread delivery at all was when the policeman came

      16   over.  Up until that time I was focused, my attention

      17   was focused on taking the pictures of the camera and I

      18   had previously observed the bread delivery, but the

      19   policeman came and I stopped for a second to talk to

      20   him and I saw the bread delivery in process.

      21        Q    Did you see them have any trouble getting in

      22   and out of the door?

      23        A    No.

      24        Q    Now, during any part of this incident that

      25   you described did you or Mr. Merrett harass or do

.                                                                1210

       1   violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?

       2        A    No, we did not.

       3        Q    Did either of you do any picketing during

       4   this incident?

       5        A    No.

       6        Q    Okay.  And you mentioned a police officer

       7   that came up.  Is that the police officer who is

       8   depicted in the video?

       9        A    Yes, it is.

      10        Q    Okay.  Did the police officer who came up to

      11   you ever tell you to stop doing what you were doing

      12   and to leave?

      13        A    No, absolutely not.

      14        Q    What did the officer say to you while you

      15   and Mr. Merrett were there?

      16        A    His first question was good morning.  What

      17   are you guys doing and I said we're taking pictures of

      18   this spy camera and he said okay, fine.  He said do

      19   you mind if I just stay here and watch until you're

      20   finished and I said no, please go ahead.

      21        Q    During the entire time the officer was there

      22   did he ever tell you to stop or did he ever tell you

      23   to leave?

      24        A    No, he did not.

      25        Q    I want to move on to the matter alleged in

.                                                                1211

       1   the order to show cause dated January 10, 2001.

       2   Specifically Paragraph 1B on page two.  This is the

       3   incident involving the private investigator, Lindsey

       4   Colton.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  Hold it right there.

       6       Just a minute.  Let me get caught up with

       7       you, okay?

       8            MR. HOWIE:  Okay.

       9             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      10        place.)

      11            THE COURT:  Move at will.  Just let me

      12       get my notes caught up.

      13            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, we would mention

      14       to the court, Mr. Minton, are you having some

      15       trouble with your throat?

      16            THE COURT:  You want to take a break?

      17            MR. MINTON:  No.

      18            THE COURT:  You have water there.  You

      19       need some water?

      20            MR. HOWIE:  I have a cough drop for him.

      21            THE COURT:  Go ahead.

      22             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      23        place.)

      24            Let's go ahead.

      25   BY MR. HOWIE:

.                                                                1212

       1        Q    Concerning the incident on January 5

       2   involving a private investigator, Lindsey Colton,

       3   you've seen the videotape of this, correct?

       4        A    Yes, I have.

       5        Q    And I want to ask you about the incident as

       6   depicted on the videotape.  When this incident first

       7   started, did you see both Lindsey Colton and a man

       8   behind her with a video camera?

       9        A    Yes, I did.

      10        Q    And did you recognize them from anywhere?

      11        A    Yes.  Lindsey Colton, numerous times has

      12   been out in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel together

      13   with the man at the video camera who is in fact I

      14   believe her husband.  I think she told that to some

      15   people inside Lisa McPherson Trust and I have no

      16   reason to disbelieve it, and they are a team of

      17   private investigators who have done some considerable

      18   work for the Scientology over the last six or eight

      19   months.

      20        Q    All right.  Now, have you ever had a

      21   confrontation with either of them and by

      22   confrontation, words or any degree of hostility

      23   between you and Lindsey Colton?

      24        A    Yes, with both her and her husband in front

      25   of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, that her husband

.                                                                1213

       1   particularly was part of this human chain that was put

       2   up to when they were rotating vans and rotating people

       3   out of the front of the Ft. Harrison to make it look

       4   like we were out there blocking their traffic, where

       5   in fact it was the same people coming in and out of

       6   vans, always the same vans and go in and coming back

       7   out.

       8             Colton, the man Colton, was part of that

       9   human chain and sometimes Lindsey Colton, his wife

      10   was.  They had been out there a number of other times

      11   as well, just sort of videoing and they have, both of

      12   them have a tendency to be somewhat mouthy, not that I

      13   may not have that same tendency, but they most likely

      14   initiate it themselves and, you know, I've never had a

      15   very cordial relationship with either of those two.

      16   In fact I would saw I don't like them.

      17        Q    Now, when Lindsey Colton first approached

      18   you in this videotape, did you see the papers that she

      19   had in her hand?

      20        A    I didn't at first.

      21        Q    You made a statement on the videotape,

      22   listen you come within ten feet of me and you guys are

      23   going to get killed.  Were you addressing Lindsey

      24   Colton and her husband, Greg Colton, at that time?

      25        A    Yes, I was.

.                                                                1214

       1        Q    And did you in fact mean you were going to

       2   use deadly force against them to lead to the their

       3   untimely demise?  What did you mean by those

       4   statements?

       5        A    I meant that, you know, that I thought if

       6   they came within ten feet of me like that, that Judge

       7   Penick was going to kill them.

       8        Q    Did you do anything at all that day with the

       9   intent to either hurt or to cause harm to either Greg

      10   Colton or Lindsey Colton?

      11        A    No.

      12        Q    Was Lindsey Colton able to get the papers

      13   through the door before it closed?

      14        A    She did.

      15        Q    All right.  Did you pick up the papers in

      16   your hand?

      17        A    I did.

      18        Q    All right.  So was Lindsey Colton right when

      19   she said on the videotape, he has been served?

      20        A    There was no doubt in my mind that I had

      21   been served.

      22        Q    Now the videotape --

      23            THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Hold on.


      25             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

.                                                                1215

       1        place.)

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you, sir, for

       3       your patience.  Go ahead.

       4   BY MR. HOWIE:

       5        Q    Thank you, Your Honor.  Now, you said that

       6   there was no doubt in you mind that she succeeded in

       7   serving the papers on you.  You in fact had the papers

       8   in your hand, didn't you.

       9        A    Yes.

      10        Q    And the video shows that you threw these

      11   papers on the sidewalk.  What was your reason for

      12   doing that?

      13        A    Well, it was to show the complete disgust at

      14   the way, the things that this organization gets their

      15   nasty process servers to serve papers on you.

      16        Q    Were you trying to throw the papers at

      17   Lindsey Colton?

      18        A    No.

      19        Q    At the time of this incident on January 5,

      20   did you have an attorney representing you in this

      21   particular matter?

      22        A    I did.

      23        Q    Who was that?

      24        A    Yourself.

      25        Q    And did you see me appear for you in court

.                                                                1216

       1   in this matter on occasions prior to January 5, 2001?

       2        A    Yes, I have.

       3        Q    Do you know of any agreement or arrangement

       4   at that time that I was not to accept any pleadings or

       5   papers on your behalf in this matter?

       6        A    No, I don't.

       7            THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Hold on.

       8             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       9        place.)

      10            Mr. Minton, you made a statement

      11        earlier, you said that you considered

      12        yourself served.  What documents were you

      13        served with?

      14            MR. MINTON:  Your Honor, I never picked

      15       those documents up out of the street.

      16            THE COURT:  So you don't know whether

      17       they were a copy of the injunction or an

      18       order to show cause or anything like that?

      19            MR. MINTON:  The only thing that I did

      20       see was there was a check from Moxon and

      21       Kobrin.  At the edge of it you could see

      22       Moxon and Kobrin on it.  It was, you know,

      23       disjointed from the papers.

      24            THE COURT:  So you don't know if it was

      25       a subpoena to appear for deposition in the

.                                                                1217

       1       wrongful death case or anything like that?

       2            MR. MINTON:  I'm sure it had to do with

       3       that case.

       4            THE COURT:  It had a check.  In other

       5       words, you're telling me there was a check

       6       attached so you felt it had to a subpoena

       7       probably?

       8            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.

      10            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, for the

      11       information of the court I ask the court to

      12       take notice of the notice of service of

      13       subpoena filed in the court file shortly

      14       after January 5.  I believe the filing date

      15       is January 8.

      16            THE COURT:  Okay, now January 5, 2001

      17       was the date of this event, right?

      18            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, sir.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.  Ian, would you come

      20       try to find that for me, please, sir?

      21            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, for the benefit

      22       of the court --

      23            THE COURT:  Probably filed somewhere

      24       January 6 or 7?

      25            MR. HOWIE:  There is an attachment

.                                                                1218

       1       referred to as Attachment A to the return of

       2       service.

       3            THE COURT:  Let's pause until we find

       4       that.  I want that out of the court file.

       5       Let's just pause until I have it.

       6             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       7        place.)

       8            MR. MINTON:  Your Honor, I am certain of

       9       one other thing that was included in that

      10       packet which was subsequently told by my

      11       attorney is that case.  That was a subpoena

      12       in the case of Ursula Caberta.

      13            Someone named Heller, while Mrs. Caberta

      14        was in town, was sued by him and Moxon

      15        represents him, as well.

      16            THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I'm not

      17       following you.  Ursula Caberta was the lady

      18       from Germany?

      19            MR. MINTON:  Correct.

      20            THE COURT:  And she's involved in a suit

      21       here in Florida?

      22            MR. MINTON:  When she was here

      23       Mr. Moxon's office had a legal case served on

      24       her by --

      25            THE COURT:  Who's Mr. Moxon?

.                                                                1219

       1            MR. MINTON:  Kendrick, unindicted

       2       coconspirator Moxon who is Mrs. Kobrin's law

       3       partner.

       4            MR. POPE:  Excuse me, Your Honor.  That

       5       unindicted coconspirator bit was just a

       6       gratuitous insult and ought to be stricken

       7       from the record.

       8            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, Mr. Moxon has

       9       been identified by that label in the course

      10       of these proceedings and I think it will

      11       assist the court in identifying --

      12            THE COURT:  Let me -- wait a minute.

      13       Let me, regardless of whatever labels, I'm

      14       not sure I'm following things here.  Spell

      15       the name.

      16            MR. MINTON:  M-O-X-O-N.  Kendrick is his

      17       first name.

      18            THE COURT:  What's the first name?

      19            MR. MINTON:  Kendrick.  He's a

      20       California attorney who is a law partner of

      21       Mrs. Kobrin here in Clearwater, Florida.

      22            THE COURT:  All right, and he had papers

      23       served on Ursula, is that what you're telling

      24       me?

      25            MR. MINTON:  Ursula Caberta, when she

.                                                                1220

       1       was is in Clearwater in, I think it was July.

       2            THE COURT:  How is Caberta spelled?

       3            MR. MINTON:  C-A-B-E-R-T-A.

       4            THE COURT:  C-A-B-E-R-T-A?

       5            MR. MINTON:  Right.  And I believe the

       6       plaintiff in the case is a man named Heller;

       7       Heller versus Caberta.  And included on those

       8       documents that Mrs. Colton served on me I

       9       subsequently found out from my attorney in

      10       this case, named Dan Whitepold, that that

      11       service had been alleged to contain those

      12       papers as well.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay, but at least some of

      14       the documents that this Colton was trying to

      15       serve on you had to do with stuff that

      16       Mr. Howie was representing you?

      17            MR. MINTON:  No.  He was --

      18            THE COURT:  What I'm driving at or what

      19       I'm trying to establish here was, was there a

      20       necessity to serve you on the street?  There

      21       is certain type of documents that are more

      22       appropriately served on the person, the

      23       actual person rather than serving them as

      24       professional attorneys do, attorney to

      25       attorney.

.                                                                1221

       1            MR. MINTON:  Right.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  So, I'm just trying

       3       to establish that those were the type of

       4       documents or what was the necessity for the

       5       incident to even begin with and if you didn't

       6       really look at the documents you may have a

       7       problem clarifying this, but Mr. Howie was

       8       trying to make a point that he represented

       9       you, at least in this matter, and I know

      10       Mr. Howie has been an attorney of record on

      11       your behalf for over a year in this case.

      12       There is no doubt about that my mind, and I

      13       was just trying to understand what might or

      14       might not have been served on you.

      15            Now, what I would like is for silence

      16        here for a minute so the staff attorney can

      17        show me what's in the court file.

      18             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      19        place.)

      20            So, what I've got is an affidavit by

      21        Lindsey Colton and it really says that I had

      22        process for him, a subpoena for deposition,

      23        okay.  And hold on just a minute, now.

      24            Okay.  That's all it says and so I don't

      25        know what case that could have been a

.                                                                1222

       1        subpoena in.

       2            Now, let me go one step further.  What

       3        you got there?  Okay.  Hold on.  Filed with

       4        the court January 12.  This was filed by me.

       5        It was a -- this was Robert Minton, Church

       6        of Scientology to show cause.  This was an

       7        show cause, order to show cause signed by me

       8        on the tenth.  This wasn't -- this event was

       9        on the -- no, this won't cut it because this

      10        happened to the fifth and this was

      11        subsequent to what happened.

      12            MR. POPE:  I have the return on service

      13       here if you want to see it, Your Honor.

      14            THE COURT:  I this case?

      15            MR. POPE:  In this case.

      16            THE COURT:  Hold on.  Just a minute

      17       Mr. Pope.  Mr. Howie?

      18            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, there is an

      19       attachment, Attachment A to this particular

      20       return of service.  It has been in the court

      21       file and I believe it was filed on or about

      22       January 8, about three days after the

      23       incident.

      24            THE COURT:  Was it a subpoena in this

      25       case?

.                                                                1223

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I did not see

       2       any reference to a subpoena.  I saw reference

       3       to the temporary injunction, the two orders

       4       to show cause, the motion for order to show

       5       cause, I believe one or two other motions and

       6       perhaps the notice on that list.  There was

       7       no reference on that list to a subpoena.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now we've got a

       9       problem.

      10            MR. HOWIE:  It is --

      11            THE COURT:  We got to get something

      12       straight here because someone is pointing out

      13       to me I might have a bogus affidavit on my

      14       hands.  She says she served a subpoena for

      15       deposition.

      16            That's what Colton's affidavit says, so

      17        I want to get to the bottom of this right

      18        now.  If I got some perjury here, I want to

      19        deal with it.  Let's get to the bottom of

      20        this.

      21            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I'll simply

      22       stand on what appears in the court file.

      23            THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm going to delve

      24       into this.  We'll take a break.  Give the

      25       staff attorney a chance to look at these

.                                                                1224

       1       files for me without any help from anyone.

       2       We'll take a break here.

       3             (A short recess took place after which the

       4        proceedings continued.)

       5            THE COURT:  All right, ladies and

       6       gentlemen, let me just take a pause here just

       7       a minute.  Here's what we found.

       8            In the court file is an affidavit by

       9        Lindsey Colton and reads in part, paragraph

      10        two, on January 5, 2001 I was attending to

      11        the service of Robert Minton.  I was on

      12        Watterson Avenue, just south of the Lisa

      13        McPherson Trust, when Mr. Minton pulled up

      14        in a car.  As I approached, Mr. Minton saw

      15        me from his rear view mirror.  Mr. Minton

      16        got out of the car and as he was doing

      17        yelled, listen, you come within ten feet of

      18        me and you guys are going to get killed.  I

      19        informed Mr. Minton that I had process for

      20        him, a subpoena for deposition.  Mr. Minton

      21        ran into the building saying and we'll just

      22        stop there.

      23            Then I go over here and look at the next

      24        paragraph and there is nothing else than

      25        what she had other than in paragraph five it

.                                                                1225

       1        says, as I was walking away, Minton threw

       2        the papers towards me and they scattered on

       3        the ground.

       4            This is signed under oath by Lindsey

       5        Colton on it was notarized on the eighth day

       6        of January, the year 2001.

       7            Okay.  Now, I go over to the court file

       8        again and I come across the return of

       9        service that was filed on the 10th day of

      10        January, 2001, which was under penalty of

      11        perjury again by Lindsey Colton, signed by

      12        her, which states while running away and

      13        attempting to evade service, Mr. Minton

      14        yelled at the process server, listen, you

      15        come within ten feet of me and you guys are

      16        going to get killed.

      17            Then it says document served, it says

      18        see Attached A for a listing of documents

      19        served.  And attached to it, Attachment A to

      20        Lindsey Colton's return of service for and

      21        on Robert S. Minton, Jr.  And I will read

      22        what she served.

      23            1.  Amended and consolidated order to

      24        show cause.

      25            2.  Verified amended and supplemental

.                                                                1226

       1        complaint for injunctive relief.

       2            3.  Plaintiff's motion for leave to

       3        amend Paragraph 16C and 16E of amended and

       4        supplemental complaint.

       5            4. verified amendment to paragraph 16C

       6        and 16E of amended and supplemental

       7        complaint filed October 12, 2000.

       8            5.  Order granting plaintiff's motion to

       9        leave to add parties defendant.

      10            6.  Temporary Injunction Number Two.

      11            7.  Order to show cause.

      12            8.  Motion for an order to cause re: why

      13        Robert Minton, John Merrett, Lisa McPherson

      14        Trust, Inc., Grady Ward, Jesse Prince, Rod

      15        Keller, Heather Bennett and Frank Oliver

      16        should not be held in contempt.

      17            And this says page two of two, but

      18        actually it's attached to what was filed

      19        with the court was only one page.  The

      20        second page is not there.  Now --

      21            MR. POPE:  The first page in the return,

      22       I believe.

      23            THE COURT:  Yeah, I guess -- excuse me,

      24       you're right.  It says page two of two, so

      25       that would be two.  And so, okay, now, I have

.                                                                1227

       1       a disparity in the record, both of them made

       2       under oath which I'll deal with at a later

       3       time.  I'm not going to bog this down.

       4            MR. POPE:  May I just explain the

       5       situation?

       6            THE COURT:  No.  We're going to deal

       7       with it with Ms. Colton here in my presence.

       8            MR. POPE:  She's coming as a rebuttal

       9       witness.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      11            MR. POPE:  Yes, sir.

      12            THE COURT:  She's an invited guest and I

      13       will deal with this accordingly.

      14            MR. POPE:  There is a simple

      15       explanation.

      16            THE COURT:  I hope, I hope for her sake.

      17       Because, you know where this goes if there

      18       isn't a simple -- now, I don't want to debate

      19       it.

      20            Please warn her, Mr. Pope.  Give her the

      21        good news that she could wind out at 49th

      22        Street.  Let's get on with it, all right?

      23   BY MR. HOWIE:

      24        Q    Mr. Minton, when we received the second

      25   temporary injunction from the court on November 30,

.                                                                1228

       1   2000, did you receive a copy this injunction through

       2   me?

       3        A    Yes, I did.

       4        Q    When and under what circumstances?

       5        A    I believe that you and Mr. Merrett were

       6   here.  The judge signed this order sometime after

       7   one o'clock on the day of the 30th.

       8             You and Mr. Merrett had to do some things

       9   here.  I don't know what you were doing, but you said

      10   that you would give my copy to John Merrett to bring

      11   back to the Lisa McPherson Trust for me to see.

      12        Q    And did that in fact happen?

      13        A    It did, yes.

      14        Q    That same day?

      15        A    It did, sometime later that afternoon.

      16        Q    Now, before the second temporary injunction

      17   in the matter was issued on November 30, did you ever

      18   have a problem accepting service of any papers from

      19   any process server in connection with this matter?

      20        A    No.

      21        Q    On or after November 30, I emphasize on or

      22   after November 30 the year 2000, were you aware that

      23   Mr. Merrett had in fact turned away process servers in

      24   this matter?

      25        A    Yes, I was very much aware of that.

.                                                                1229

       1        Q    Now, as of January 5, 2001, the date of this

       2   incident, was it your belief that the employees of the

       3   Church of Scientology were covered by this temporary

       4   injunction?

       5        A    Employees, agents, all that other stuff as

       6   well.

       7        Q    Okay.  Now, by that did you in your own mind

       8   include private investigators working for the Church

       9   of Scientology?

      10        A    Absolutely.

      11        Q    Did you believe Lindsey Colton and her

      12   husband, Greg Colton, to be private investigators

      13   working for the Church of Scientology?

      14        A    Yes, I did.

      15        Q    When you turned and moved away from Lindsey

      16   Colton that day, was it your intent to obstruct or

      17   embarrass the court in its functions?

      18        A    Absolutely not.

      19        Q    Was this the first time since the temporary

      20   injunction was issued on November 30 that you were

      21   served any paper in this matter?

      22        A    I'm not certain.

      23        Q    Okay.

      24        A    I don't recall.  I don't recall ever having

      25   been served the injunction other than, you know, being

.                                                                1230

       1   put on notice of it by you as my attorney that you

       2   would send it to me via John Merrett.

       3        Q    During this entire incident on January 5,

       4   apart from Lindsey Colton, leaving her out of this for

       5   a moment, was there a member of the Church of

       6   Scientology within ten feet of you that day?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    During that incident did you block the path

       9   of any member of the Church of Scientology?

      10        A    No, I did not.

      11        Q    During that incident did you harass or do

      12   violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?

      13        A    No, I did not.

      14        Q    Are you familiar with the Church of

      15   Scientology's Fair Game policy?

      16        A    Yes, I am.

      17            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

      18       You've already excluded this information.  It

      19       serves no useful purpose in this matter

      20       issue.  The issue is compliance or

      21       noncompliance with the court's injunction.

      22            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, since

      23       Mr. Minton's intent at the time is at issue

      24       and since we are allowed to raise it as a

      25       defense as an essential element in proving a

.                                                                1231

       1       violation of the injunction under the

       2       Thompson case which the petitioner itself has

       3       submitted to the court, I think I should be

       4       allowed to inquire what Mr. Minton's state of

       5       mind was, including any policies by the

       6       Church of Scientology if he was acting in

       7       opposition to.

       8            THE COURT:  Well, since this incident is

       9       an issue and this is Mr. Minton's day in

      10       court, I'm going to allow you to go ahead.

      11       Proceed.

      12   BY MR. HOWIE:

      13        Q    Thank you.  Mr. Minton, I asked if you are

      14   familiar with the Church of Scientology's Fair Game

      15   policy.  What is your understanding, your own

      16   understanding of that policy.

      17        A    My own understanding of their Fair Game

      18   policy is that anyone who is in any way critical of

      19   Scientology is basically to be gotten rid of in

      20   whatever way is necessary and one of the ways that

      21   they get rid of people is to turn them into criminals,

      22   whether they orchestrate the criminal behavior or the

      23   person is a criminal in any case.

      24             You know, it's on national television.  Mike

      25   Render, in a program that was done about me --

.                                                                1232

       1            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

       2       Hearsay.

       3   BY MR. HOWIE:

       4        Q    I'm just asking -- may it please the court,

       5   I'm only asking you about your own understanding of

       6   the Fair Game policy.

       7        A    Okay.

       8        Q    Please proceed if you have anything further?

       9        A    Well, my understanding comes from statements

      10   made in L. Ron Hubbard's own words that anybody who

      11   attacks the Church of Scientology is a criminal and

      12   essential to that fact is that the Office of Special

      13   Affairs trying to ensure that that is what happened to

      14   anybody who attacks in a significant way, that

      15   organization.

      16        Q    Now, does the Fair Game policy include

      17   setting up people to make them look bad according to

      18   you own understanding?

      19            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.  I

      20       mean there is no -- if what he wants to

      21       establish is that he was concerned about this

      22       policy, he's done that already.  He doesn't

      23       need to get into all of this that you have

      24       excluded earlier.

      25            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I'll move on to

.                                                                1233

       1       the next area.

       2            THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.

       3   BY MR. HOWIE:

       4        Q    Over the past months or years, have you been

       5   served with papers from the Church of Scientology?

       6        A    Many times.

       7        Q    Can you tell us how, under what

       8   circumstances, you have been served papers by the

       9   Church of Scientology in the past?

      10        A    Almost every conceivable circumstances.  You

      11   know, going to a Mother's Day dinner in Boston, on my

      12   birthday.  You know a process server or PI, usually

      13   they're both with the Scientologists, came to my home

      14   in New Hampshire with a big bouquet of flowers and a

      15   big bouquet of balloons, you know, knocks on the front

      16   door and says Mr. Minton, I have some flowers and

      17   balloons for you.  Happy birthday, so I take them and

      18   he whips out of his back pocket, a subpoena and, you

      19   know, almost always at the airports when I go to

      20   Boston to leave on flights they serve me at the gate,

      21   at the departure gate.

      22             These are not process servers, but a member

      23   of the Church of Scientology, Gerard Renna, who is the

      24   OSA man in Boston, served me there along with and

      25   brings along a State Trooper and the State Trooper

.                                                                1234

       1   gets told, you know, that I'm a dangerous person and

       2   that's why he needs to be there.

       3             They served me when I arrived in Columbus,

       4   Ohio.  They serve me at the gate, they served me when

       5   I arrived at Tampa, Florida at the gate.  They have

       6   served me when I was leaving Tampa, Florida at the

       7   gate.  They have served me in my hotel in Tampa, Hyatt

       8   Westshore, for in example.

       9             And friends of mine, for example,

      10   Ms.  Caberta, you know, had process servers following

      11   her all over the Biltmore Hotel the entire time of her

      12   stay as well as PIs, so numerous occasions and also

      13   just, normal, routine ones, as well.  I'm just

      14   speaking of the ones that are a little but out of the

      15   ordinary because, you know, it's necessary to monitor

      16   somebody's movement to serve them at the gate when

      17   they're departing or at the gate when they are

      18   arriving.

      19        Q    Now, during these instances, have you ever

      20   had any problem, you, yourself, accepting service of

      21   process, even under these circumstances?

      22        A    Other than the normal emotional upheaval of

      23   now what are these guys serving me with, you know.

      24   That's all.  You know, pretty straight forward.

      25        Q    Well, let me ask you this.  Apart from the

.                                                                1235

       1   January 5 incident, is this the only time where you

       2   have ever turned and moved away from the person who as

       3   it turned out was trying to serve you papers in this

       4   matter?

       5        A    Yes.  If I could just add a couple of

       6   things.  I remembered some other instances.

       7        Q    In response to my previous question?

       8        A    Yes, in response to your previous question.

       9   I mean, you know, there have been a number of process

      10   servers, very nice, friendly process servers who come

      11   into the LMT.  One of them was up here and he

      12   mentioned that he was a first name basis with Bob,

      13   Stacy and some of the others.  They come to Stacy's

      14   house.

      15             Others, for example, another one who was

      16   serving, Stacy and I were driving to her house and we

      17   get inside the garage and all of sudden this guy comes

      18   zooming into the driveway when the garage door is

      19   going down and he sticks his car right in the front

      20   of, under the garage door, so you either let it hit

      21   his car ot stop it, and he got out said he had papers

      22   to serve.

      23        Q    Even then you accepted the papers?

      24        A    Yes.

      25        Q    I want to move on to the third and fourth

.                                                                1236

       1   matters which occurred together on January 6.  These

       2   were the matters involving the Threep and this was the

       3   allegation in Paragraph 1D, Paragraph 1F on page two

       4   and three of the January 10 order to show cause.

       5             I want to start by asking you about the

       6   Threep itself.  Who developed it or invented it, to

       7   your knowledge?

       8        A    Randy Enerson, who is the gentleman in the

       9   blue coat, red tie and white flower sitting in the

      10   front row there next to Mrs. Bezazian.

      11        Q    When did you first see the Threep, the

      12   prototype?

      13        A    Um, it was the day I arrived in Clearwater

      14   from Boston.  I think it was the first -- I'm not sure

      15   when it was, but it could have been this date.  I'm

      16   just not certain.

      17        Q    This date being January 6?

      18        A    Yes, it could have been that.

      19        Q    Okay.  You've seen tapes, videotapes of you

      20   walking around carrying the Threep.  Is this the same

      21   item that has been place in evidence?  Have you seen

      22   that in evidence?

      23        A    Yes, it is.  I might add, I thought it was a

      24   very impressive piece of workmanship.

      25        Q    The Threep that you saw here in court as was

.                                                                1237

       1   introduced in court, is that substantially in the same

       2   condition its appearance it was on January 6?

       3        A    Yes, I think the injunction on the end of it

       4   has become a little bit tattered by virtue of the

       5   exposure to moisture, humidity and things like that

       6   while it was outside, but, yes it is the same.

       7        Q    Now, what, to your understanding, is the

       8   purpose of the Threep?

       9        A    The Threep is basically a tool to help

      10   enforce the injunction.

      11        Q    Now, does it do that?

      12        A    Well, it makes it very clear what ten feet

      13   is which is very central part of Judge Penick's

      14   injunction.  And if someone is approaching you or you

      15   are approaching someone and you have some doubt that

      16   they're a Scientologist or not a Scientologist, you

      17   know, it is useful to have the injunction on the end

      18   of it so that you could point out to them that there

      19   is a mutual injunction involved here that we all have

      20   to be careful of and we can basically move around the

      21   plane of that pole and still be ten feet away from

      22   each and pass.

      23        Q    So the purpose of the Threep is in fact to

      24   enforce the injunction?

      25        A    It is, yes.

.                                                                1238

       1        Q    Well, is it the purpose of the Threep to

       2   mock the injunction?

       3        A    Absolutely not.  I mean, I think it is an

       4   extremely clever and colorful way to remind everybody

       5   that there is something that all the people moving

       6   around downtown Clearwater should be aware of and, you

       7   know, most of the people moving around downtown

       8   Clearwater are Scientologists.

       9        Q    At the time of this incident on January 6

      10   when you had the Threep in your hand, what was your

      11   own opinion or attitude or feelings towards the second

      12   temporary injunction?

      13        A    I liked it.  In fact, I posted a message on

      14   the internet.  It was actually dated the day after the

      15   injunction but it was posted like 12:30 at night so it

      16   was really the same day that I really liked.

      17            MR. HOWIE:  If I may approach the

      18       witness, Your Honor?

      19            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

      20   BY MR. HOWIE:

      21        Q    Mr. Minton, you mentioned posting a

      22   statement on the internet concerning your own attitude

      23   or opinion of the second temporary injunction.  I have

      24   shown you an item.  Can you describe for the record

      25   what that item is?

.                                                                1239

       1        A    This is a copy of the internet posting I

       2   made to the news group Atl.Religion.Scientology on

       3   Friday the 1st of December at 0036 hours.

       4        Q    Is this the same posting that you are

       5   referring to in your testimony?

       6        A    It is.

       7        Q    And does that include or attached to it was

       8   there included the text of the second temporary

       9   injunction?

      10        A    Yes.  I included the text of Temporary

      11   Injunction Number Two.  I scanned it in and, you know,

      12   and neatened it up and everything and put it in.

      13             Also you're not allowed on this particular

      14   news group, Alt.Religion.Scientology to post binary

      15   messages to it, which would have been the maps that

      16   were attached to the injunction.  And so those binary

      17   maps were posted to Alt.Binary.Scientology which is

      18   just a binary group that people can actual go and

      19   retrieve J peg scans, for example.  I believe they

      20   were done in J peg format, so that they could print it

      21   out in color if they wanted to, to have exactly what

      22   all the maps were that were attached to the

      23   injunction.

      24            THE COURT:  What's binary?

      25            MR. MINTON:  It's a not a text file.  It

.                                                                1240

       1       will include -- what happens when you

       2       instruct a J peg picture or a Giff, these are

       3       the two common type of things that are

       4       transmitted over the internet because they

       5       are smaller in size than say a big photo shop

       6       file, they are -- most of the news readers

       7       that people use to observe the internet,

       8       these news readers actually translate the

       9       binary bits of information with zeros and

      10       ones basically into a picture.  They're

      11       converted automatically into a picture when

      12       you receive it.

      13            It's not like the -- this same principle

      14        would happen in e-mail when someone sends

      15        you an e-mail that included a picture.  They

      16        normally send you a picture as an attachment

      17        and the attachment is automatically

      18        converted did from a binary, from binary

      19        bits of information into the actual picture

      20        itself.

      21            THE COURT:  Okay.  I understand.

      22            MR. MINTON:  But the news group,

      23       Alt.Religion.Scientology is for people to

      24       post text messages.  Binary files tend to be

      25       bigger.

.                                                                1241

       1            You know, it kind of messes of the news

       2        group to have those, so there is a separate

       3        news group for any binary attachments that

       4        you want to include.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.

       6   BY MR. HOWIE:

       7        Q    Mr. Minton, does this posting on the

       8   internet that you have before you accurately reflect

       9   your opinion towards the second temporary injunction

      10   both on December 1 and on January 6, 2001?

      11        A    Yes, I would say that as of January 6, 2001

      12   and today I have slightly different feelings about the

      13   injunction, but they are still basically and

      14   completely in line with this.

      15            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, at this time I'd

      16       like to move this item into the evidence.

      17       It's not previously been marked for

      18       identification.

      19            THE COURT:  Did you give copies to

      20       Mr. Pope and Mr. Merrett?

      21            MR. HOWIE:  I have, Your Honor.

      22            THE COURT:  Any objections?

      23            MR. POPE:  No, objections, Your Honor.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  No objection.

      25            THE COURT:  Please stand them up here.

.                                                                1242

       1       This will be Mr. Minton's exhibit.  I'm not

       2       sure if it's number four or five.

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I don't know

       4       that I have more than one.

       5            THE COURT:  Well, let's call it two.

       6            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.

       7             (Whereupon, Defendant Minton's Exhibit

       8        Number Two was admitted into evidence.

       9            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, if I may

      10       approach the bench?

      11            THE COURT:  You may, sir.  And this is

      12       in evidence, your number two.  And I'm going

      13       to show it because -- well, let the record

      14       reflect that this one exhibit, there's one,

      15       two, three, four, five pages that I'm just

      16       putting here five pages, dash, one document.

      17            All right.  Please proceed.

      18   BY MR. HOWIE:

      19        Q    Mr. Minton, I'm going to show you what's

      20   been marked as an exhibit.  I think the tag is too far

      21   away from me.  Is this in fact the Threep that you

      22   were carrying that day?

      23        A    Yes, it is.

      24        Q    From what you can see of it, does is

      25   resemble the way it looked the day you were carrying

.                                                                1243

       1   it on January 6?

       2        A    It does.

       3        Q    All right.  On January 6 were there any

       4   other writings or markings of any kind other than the

       5   injunction affixed to the Threep?

       6        A    No.

       7        Q    Specifically, were there any writings or

       8   words or devices on the Threep on January 6 where it

       9   meant to protest against or mock members of the Church

      10   of Scientology?

      11        A    No, there weren't.

      12        Q    Now, the afternoon of January 6 you're shown

      13   on the videotape crossing the driveway of the Coachman

      14   Building parking lot between two designated orange

      15   zones on the maps attached to the injunction on your

      16   way back to the Lisa McPherson Trust Building.  Did

      17   you see Mr. Avila at that time?

      18        A    Yes, I did.

      19        Q    And what was he doing?

      20        A    Basically, filming us, know, walking our

      21   way -- filming.

      22        Q    All right.  In doing this filming, did Mr.

      23   Avila get close to you at any time?

      24        A    A couple times he was getting, you know,

      25   close to ten feet.

.                                                                1244

       1        Q    All right.

       2        A    I don't know of he ever got closer than ten

       3   feet, you know, he was moving in that direction.

       4        Q    As you approached the driveway of the

       5   Coachman parking lot, how close was Mr. Avila to you?

       6        A    12 feet, maybe.

       7        Q    What did you do in response to Mr. Avila's

       8   presence at that time?

       9        A    I reminded him to keep his distance of ten

      10   feet.

      11            THE COURT:  Excuse me, just a minute.

      12       What's the date of this event?

      13            MR. HOWIE:  January 6.

      14            THE COURT:  This is still the sixth?

      15            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, Your Honor.

      16            THE COURT:  All right.

      17   BY MR. HOWIE:

      18        Q    When you say that you reminded him to keep

      19   his distance, how exactly did you remind him?

      20        A    The Threep was extended.  An obvious measure

      21   of --

      22            THE COURT:  No, I just heard that noise

      23       and looked to see what it was.

      24            MR. BUNKER:  I was just changing the

      25       tape.  I apologize, Your Honor.

.                                                                1245

       1            THE COURT:  Close it up, one or the

       2       other.

       3            MR. BUNKER:  I apologize, Your Honor.

       4            THE COURT:  It distracted me and the

       5       witness.  In fact, shut it down right now.

       6       Shut them both down right now.

       7            The deal was if you distracted they were

       8        over.  It's over.  Close them.  Put them

       9        down.  And you can shut them down

      10        afterwards.  You move away from there so I

      11        know they're not running.

      12   BY MR. HOWIE:

      13        Q    Now, Mr. Minton --

      14            THE COURT:  I apologize, Mr. Minton.

      15       I'm sorry.  Let's just say I haven't got

      16       control of everybody but I'm going to get it

      17       real quick.  I'm running out of patience.

      18       Let's go, Mr. Howie.

      19   BY MR. HOWIE:

      20        Q    Yes, sir.  You indicated that Mr. Avila was

      21   standing there; that you had the Threep in your hand

      22   and that you used the Threep to advise Mr. Avila.  Can

      23   you explain how and why did that?

      24        A    Well, to advise him of the ten feet and as

      25   we were moving across at that driveway, you know, he

.                                                                1246

       1   was moving as well and, you know, it merely shows for

       2   both, Mr. Avila and myself, what ten feet is.

       3            THE COURT:  And you're moving across the

       4       Coachman driveway?

       5            MR. MINTON:  Right.

       6            THE COURT:  That parking lot?

       7            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

       8            THE COURT:  Do we have that videotape?

       9            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, Your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Let's put it on so he can

      11       explain to me exactly what's going on.  Find

      12       is and let's put it on.  We'll take a break

      13       here until he can find it.

      14            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, sir.

      15             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      16        which the proceedings continued.)

      17            THE COURT:  All right.  I had requested

      18       that we locate that film so that we can play

      19       it.  Have you don't that?

      20            MR. HOWIE:  Yes, Your Honor.  It's all

      21       set up and ready to go.

      22            THE COURT:  Let's do this.  Mr. Merrett,

      23       you may step down and go out there.  Now,

      24       look.  Please, do me a favor.  Remember,

      25       you're on the witness stand.  Don't let

.                                                                1247

       1       anybody talk to you, pass you notes or even

       2       attempt to talk in a loud voice around you,

       3       okay.  If you have any problems like we did

       4       with that sound equipment, look at me and

       5       we'll take care of it, okay.

       6            MR. MINTON:  You're calling me

       7       Mr. Merrett, now.

       8            THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You play lawyer

       9       and let him defend himself.

      10            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I have a chair

      11       set out for Mr. Minton if he wants to take

      12       that.

      13            THE COURT:  That would be great.

      14             (Whereupon, the requested videotape was

      15        played for the court.)

      16            Did you want to ask any questions of him

      17        while that was running?

      18            MR. HOWIE:  No, Your Honor, but now that

      19       it has run I would ask a couple of follow-up

      20       questions.

      21            THE COURT:  Proceed.

      22   BY MR. HOWIE:

      23        Q    While you were talking to Mr. Avila -- while

      24   you were talking on the megaphone, were you addressing

      25   Mr. Avila?

.                                                                1248

       1        A    Up to a point, yes.

       2        Q    And was Mr. Avila the one who was in fact

       3   making this videotape?

       4        A    Yes.

       5        Q    And it shows you walking across a break in

       6   the sidewalk.  Was that in fact the driveway to the

       7   Coachman parking lot?

       8        A    Yes.

       9        Q    Thank you.

      10            THE COURT:  You can go back.  You can go

      11       back up there.

      12   BY MR. HOWIE:

      13        Q    Now, you heard your voice on the tape as you

      14   were crossing the driveway to the Coachman parking lot

      15   and it's fairly clear what you were saying, but do you

      16   recall saying anything as you crossed the driveway to

      17   the Coachman parking lot that is not clear on this

      18   tape?

      19        A    No.

      20        Q    Now, Mr. Avila said on that same day shortly

      21   after this incident that we saw here that he did not

      22   videotape you as you went along Cleveland Street from

      23   Ft. Harrison to Watterson because you were not

      24   demonstrating.  Is that in fact correct that you were

      25   not demonstrating?

.                                                                1249

       1        A    That's correct, we were not.

       2        Q    And once you were on Watterson, the

       3   videotape shows you on the east side of Watterson

       4   speaking through the megaphone?

       5        A    Yes.

       6        Q    Was that in fact you on the tape?

       7        A    Yes, it was.

       8        Q    Okay.  Now, after you spoke on the

       9   megaphone, what did you do with the megaphone?

      10        A    At some point there right around the white

      11   line area, you know, we were finished and I gave the

      12   megaphone I think to Arnie Lerma.

      13        Q    Now, after you gave the megaphone to Arnie

      14   Lerma, what did you do then?

      15        A    I proceeded north along Watterson Street on

      16   the east side of the sidewalk and at some point I

      17   believe this is the time and incident you're talking

      18   about, at some point I crossed the street

      19   catty-corner.

      20             You know, there was nobody around.  The

      21   street was empty.  It was a Saturday, I believe.

      22   Crossed the street and got on the to the west side of

      23   Watterson Street heading back to the Lisa McPherson

      24   Trust.

      25        Q    All right.  And while you were crossing the

.                                                                1250

       1   street and while you are on the west side of Watterson

       2   Street, the video shows you carrying the Threep in

       3   your hands; is that correct?

       4        A    That's correct.

       5        Q    Did you have anything else in your hands as

       6   you crossed the street or walked along the west side

       7   of Watterson?

       8        A    No.  I had given the megaphone to Arnie

       9   Lerma.

      10        Q    While you were crossing Watterson or while

      11   you were on the west side of Watterson, did you say or

      12   shout anything out loud during that time?

      13        A    Not that I can recall.  And the things that

      14   I heard on the videotape seem to be coming from

      15   somebody who was carrying a megaphone.  I believe that

      16   was Arnie Lerma's voice.

      17        Q    Now, you have in fact see the videotape in

      18   past, haven't you?

      19        A    Yes, here in the courtroom.

      20        Q    Okay.  During the time it depicts you

      21   crossing Watterson or being on the west side of

      22   Watterson, do you hear anything on that tape that can

      23   be ascribed to you?

      24        A    Not that I can recall.  I'd have to look at

      25   the tape again.

.                                                                1251

       1        Q    All right.  While you were doing this did

       2   you see any members of the Church of Scientology who

       3   got within ten feet of you?

       4        A    No, there was no -- there were no people on

       5   the street other than Antonio and the two policemen.

       6        Q    Where were the two policemen in relation to

       7   the Antonio Avila?

       8        A    Well, they were -- I'm not even sure which

       9   side of the street they were on at that time.  They

      10   shift sides of the street.  Sometimes they're on the

      11   east side, sometimes they're on the west side and I

      12   don't remember where they were at that time.

      13        Q    While you were on Watterson that day as

      14   depicted in the videotape, did you see any members of

      15   the Church of Scientology who you harassed or did any

      16   violence to?

      17        A    No.

      18        Q    While on Watterson did you block any

      19   vehicles from entering or leaving or any persons from

      20   entering or leaving the area?

      21        A    No.

      22        Q    Specifically, did you block any entrances to

      23   the buildings as you moved up towards Lisa McPherson

      24   Trust?

      25        A    No.

.                                                                1252

       1        Q    What was your purpose in crossing Watterson

       2   Street being on the west side of Watterson Street?

       3        A    I was finished and just heading back to the

       4   Trust.

       5        Q    Now, again while you were on Watterson

       6   Street during this particular episode, apart from the

       7   injunction hanging off the end of the Threep, was

       8   there any writing of any kind on the Threep?

       9        A    No, there wasn't.

      10        Q    Now, last I want to go to the incident on

      11   the evening of January 7, 2001 on Watterson Street as

      12   set out in the January 10 order to show cause at

      13   Paragraph 1H on page four.

      14             Are you acquainted with Mark Bunker?

      15            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, just a second.

      16       Give me that again, paragraph four?

      17            MR. HOWIE:  Paragraph 1H on page four,

      18       January 10 order to show cause.

      19            THE COURT:  Please proceed.

      20   BY MR. HOWIE:

      21        Q    Thank you.  You're acquainted with Mark

      22   Bunker, aren't you?

      23        A    Yes, I am.

      24        Q    How long have you been acquainted with

      25   Mr. Bunker?

.                                                                1253

       1        A    Since the beginning of 1999 personally and

       2   then prior to that I had some communications with him

       3   without ever having met him.

       4        Q    All right.  Now, this past fall, by which I

       5   mean fall of the year 2000, did you have the

       6   opportunity to view a videotape produced by Mark

       7   Bunker concerning the subject matter of the connection

       8   of some members of the Clearwater Police Department to

       9   the Church of Scientology?

      10        A    Yes, I did.

      11        Q    And when did you in fact first view that

      12   tape?

      13        A    I believe it was sometime in October, soon

      14   after it made; maybe even the day after it was

      15   finished.

      16        Q    October of 2000?

      17        A    Yes.

      18        Q    I'm going to show you what's been marked

      19   Robert Minton Exhibit One for identification and ask

      20   if you recognize that?

      21        A    Yes, I do.

      22        Q    What is that, please?

      23        A    This would appear to be the tape that

      24   Mr. Bunker made concerning Scientology and the

      25   Clearwater police.

.                                                                1254

       1        Q    Okay.  Have you view that tape in its

       2   entirety at one point or another?

       3        A    Yes, I have.

       4        Q    And where and under what circumstances did

       5   you view it in October of 2000?

       6        A    In Mark Bunker's office.

       7        Q    Now, based on your own observations of the

       8   tape itself, what is the actual subject matter of that

       9   tape in your own words?

      10        A    The subject matter is a perceived bias on

      11   the part of the Clearwater Police Department against

      12   the people working for the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      13        Q    All right.  Now, as result --

      14        A    Sorry.  Just let me clarify that.

      15        Q    Sure.  Go ahead.

      16        A    I'm not talking about the whole police

      17   department.  I'm talking about some of the people in

      18   the police department who are working for -- some of

      19   the people in the police department who work the white

      20   lines out on Watterson Avenue.

      21        Q    All right.  Now, as a result of viewing this

      22   tape combined with any other personal experiences or

      23   observations you may have, did you form any personal

      24   belief or personal attitude concerning the involvement

      25   of some members of the Clearwater Police Department

.                                                                1255

       1   and the relationship to Church of Scientology?

       2        A    Yes, I did.

       3        Q    And what is that personal belief or attitude

       4   that you have?

       5        A    Well, the most obvious thing to me out of

       6   this videotape is that it is very, very difficult for

       7   some, few, members of the Clearwater Police Department

       8   to forget who is footing the bill for them when they

       9   are out on Watterson Street and when they are out in

      10   situations in Clearwater that may involve a member of

      11   the Lisa McPherson Trust, particularly in a case where

      12   it involves a member of the Lisa McPherson Trust and

      13   another Scientologist.

      14        Q    Did the information on this videotape that

      15   was produced by Mark Bunker have any role forming your

      16   persona; beliefs and attitudes concerning this?

      17        A    It did, yes.

      18        Q    Did you believe the matters asserted on this

      19   tape were true or substantially true?  Did you accept

      20   them as true?

      21        A    I did accept them as true.

      22        Q    Now, taking this belief or attitude, it is

      23   your position that all members of the Clearwater

      24   Police Department or partial to or biased in favor of

      25   the Church of Scientology?

.                                                                1256

       1        A    Absolutely not.  I think that, you know,

       2   there are many Clearwater police officers who are out

       3   there doing the best job they can for their community.

       4        Q    Now, this belief or attitude that you have

       5   concerning some members of the Clearwater Police

       6   Department, did you completely form this belief or

       7   attitude prior to the incident on January 7, 2001?

       8        A    Yes, I did.

       9        Q    And on the evening of January 7, 2001 when

      10   you had you confrontation with two members of

      11   Clearwater Police Department, were you acting as

      12   speaking in accordance with that belief?

      13        A    Yes, I was.

      14            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, at this time I

      15       would move Minton's Exhibit One into

      16       evidence.

      17            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

      18            THE COURT:  Grounds.

      19            MR. POPE:  I had the opportunity to view

      20       this tape over the weekend.  This is not a

      21       tape of an event that occurred or that is the

      22       subject matter of any event, anything that

      23       charged on the order to show cause.

      24            All of these events, they occurred

      25        beforehand and most of them aren't events at

.                                                                1257

       1        all.

       2            Let me just tell you what this tape is a

       3        about.  Essentially, this is a self-serving

       4        documentary type production that Mr. Bunker

       5        put together and narrates, in which he

       6        basically points out how bad the

       7        Scientologists are and how the police are

       8        biased in their favor.

       9            He interviews Gabe Cazariz, former

      10        mayor, and Ray Emmons, former police officer

      11        and they say things like this a criminal

      12        organization.  It's a continuing criminal

      13        enterprise.

      14            Mr. Emmons says that he investigated the

      15        Scientologists for 20 years and shopped his

      16        finding to federal and state people and

      17        couldn't get anybody to take them on because

      18        they were afraid to do it.

      19            At one point there is a statement made,

      20        a large percentage of the Clearwater Police

      21        Force now work for Scientology.  At one

      22        point Mr. Emmonx say that the police

      23        officers being indoctrinated, that this cult

      24        brainwashes people and we're dealing with

      25        impressionable young officers who are being

.                                                                1258

       1        brainwashed and they're telling lies about

       2        LMT.  They discussed the purported Fair Game

       3        policy.

       4            They claim that Scientology kills your

       5        animals, follows you in the night, gets you

       6        fired and ruins your credit and the

       7        statement was made that the police are

       8        absolutely unwilling to do anything to

       9        protect the protesters and that they are

      10        less willing to protect us than they are the

      11        Scientologists.

      12            Your Honor, there is no way I can

      13        cross-examine Mr. Emmons and Mr. Cazariz.

      14        It's basically a self-serving narration to

      15        the effect that the Scientologists are bad

      16        people and the police are too.

      17            Now, Mr. Minton has said that he viewed

      18        this and he has testified as to his state of

      19        mind.  He can certainly testify that this

      20        video provoked his state of mind.  I don't

      21        know how in the world I can rebut that but

      22        there is absolutely no necessity for putting

      23        this on at this time in this courtroom as

      24        just more of the same, all the

      25        Scientologists are bad guys.  It proves

.                                                                1259

       1        nothing whatsoever in the matter.

       2            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I believe we may

       4       have two grounds for objection here,

       5       relevance and hearsay if I understand the

       6       objection correctly.

       7            It's our position first that this is

       8        relevant because the intent again under

       9        Thompson is a necessary element to establish

      10        contempt to violate a court order.  And we

      11        are arguing that Mr. Minton's intent or

      12        state of mind was no to violate the court's

      13        injunction, but to speak and react to what

      14        he viewed as collusion between the

      15        Scientologists and some officers of the

      16        Clearwater Police Department.  And this tape

      17        since it did establish the basis for his

      18        forming that state of mind, this tape give

      19        insight into Mr. Minton's state of mind at

      20        the time and serves as an appropriate and in

      21        fact necessary component to a defense in

      22        this matter.

      23            The argument that this is a self-serving

      24        tape or self-serving statement is basically

      25        an hearsay objection and the reason for that

.                                                                1260

       1        is that although certain statements are

       2        allowed in under certain exceptions, it is

       3        self-serving and therefore should not come

       4        in as an out of court statement.

       5            It is our position that this is not

       6        being submitted to prove the truth of the

       7        matter asserted on the tape.

       8            Mr. Minton had no involvement in the

       9        production of the tape so it cannot be his

      10        self-serving statement and we only

      11        submitting it for purposes of showing that

      12        Mr. Minton believes the items on the tape to

      13        be true in forming his opinion and acting on

      14        that opinion on the evening of January 7.

      15            THE COURT:  Mr.  Merrett.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would join

      17       in Mr. Howie's argument.  Essentially, the

      18       purpose of it, the good faith or belief of

      19       Mr. Minton that the police officers were

      20       agents of Scientology has been questioned

      21       both by Mr. Pope and I believe the court

      22       asked some questions in that regard of

      23       earlier witnesses about whether that was

      24       believed and why and the state of mind

      25       exception I believe applies.

.                                                                1261

       1            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope,

       2       rebuttal?

       3            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, you know, there

       4       has been much made about the fact that the

       5       Scientologists reimburse the police

       6       department for the costs of these officers to

       7       come out there and patrol.

       8            I'd point out to you that Mr. Minton

       9        pays Mr. Bunker's salary.  He funds LMT and

      10        Mr. Bunker who made this anti Scientology

      11        propaganda piece is on his payroll, so, you

      12        know, that's just one more chink in his

      13        trustworthiness armor and the prejudicial

      14        effects of this would be just a bias rant

      15        against the police and Scientology outweigh

      16        any probative value and he's already

      17        testified to what his state of mind is.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.  Gentleman, I thank

      19       you all very much for your arguments.  I'm

      20       going to allow it and I'm going to give it

      21       exactly the credibility I feel it deserves.

      22       Let's proceed.

      23            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I'm not going to

      24       publish it at this time.  It is somewhat

      25       lengthy, unless the court wants to use our

.                                                                1262

       1       time today to do that.  It was not my intent

       2       to do that.

       3            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, if I could make an

       4       observation, it is 21 minutes long, if I

       5       recall correctly.  It would probably be an

       6       appropriate time to take a lunch break.

       7            THE COURT:  We're going to see it.

       8       We're going to see it at this time in the

       9       context of this transcript as it's going and

      10       then we'll see where we are at that time

      11       regarding lunch.  I'm sure that everybody can

      12       hang for another 20 to 30 minutes.  It's only

      13       12:30, and we'll go to lunch at that time.

      14            Mr. Minton, sir, you may step down, I

      15        will step down and we will see it and we

      16        will go from there.

      17            MR. HOWIE:  For the record, I am

      18       returning the Petitioner's Number Nine to the

      19       evidence table.  May I proceed?

      20            THE COURT:  You may proceed and this

      21       will be in evidence.  Is has not been marked

      22       at this but it will be marked as Robert

      23       Minton's Exhibit One and our court reporter

      24       will not have to take this down in that it

      25       will be in evidence.

.                                                                1263

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.

       2             (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the

       3        court.)

       4            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, now that you've

       5       had an opportunity to view that, I would move

       6       to strike it truly as a self-serving,

       7       propaganda piece paid for by Mr. Minton and

       8       now used by him to try to establish his state

       9       of mind.  I mean, it just has no probative

      10       value whatsoever.

      11            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I take this as a

      12       motion to strike an exhibit that's already

      13       been entered, however, again the probative

      14       value of it is to establish Mr. Minton's

      15       state of mind.

      16            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett, do

      17       you want to say something?

      18            MR. MERRETT:  No, Your Honor.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you very much

      20       for that argument, but the motion is denied.

      21            Let me get this in.

      22             (Whereupon, Robert S. Minton Exhibit Number

      23        was admitted into evidence.)

      24            All right.

      25            MR. HOWIE:  May it please the court, I

.                                                                1264

       1       didn't know if the court wishes to break or

       2       continue?

       3            THE COURT:  Let's break for lunchtime.

       4       This is a good point.

       5            Mr. Minton, sir, we're breaking for

       6        lunch.  You're still on the stand.  I'm

       7        going to have you put you in sort of a

       8        vacuum and ask that you eat alone and don't

       9        give anybody any reason to believe that

      10        you're either communicating about your

      11        testimony or being influenced about your

      12        testimony or ask for help regarding your

      13        testimony.

      14            As you know, the nature of these very

      15        proceedings are such that I'm trying to keep

      16        this thing on a level playing field.  Don't

      17        do anything to disrupt it and have a good

      18        lunch everybody.

      19            I'll see you back, let's make it 1:45.

      20        Thank you, very much.

      21            Wait a minute.  Mr. Minton has a

      22        question.  Yes, sir.

      23            MR. MINTON:  Should I just stay here and

      24       have somebody bring me a sandwich back or?

      25            THE COURT:  Whatever.  I mean you can

.                                                                1265

       1       certainly go outside and walk.  I'm not

       2       saying you've got to stay here.  I just don't

       3       want to see or when we come back from lunch

       4       have a group of people saying there sit

       5       Mr. Minton in the front or in the middle of

       6       everybody with a white rose holding class or

       7       something like that, you understand what I'm

       8       trying to say?

       9            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      10            THE COURT:  Okay.  You make your own

      11       decision.

      12            MR. MINTON:  Thank you.

      13             (Thereupon, a lunch recess was taken, after

      14        which the proceedings continued.)

      15                      End of Volume X












                      IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR
                          PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA

                           CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-08

           ORGANIZATION, INC., a Florida           :
           corporation,                            :
                               Petitioner,         :
           vs.                                     :
           ROBERT S. MINTON, JR., ET AL.,          :
                               Respondents.        :

                 BEFORE:       The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

                 PLACE:        Pinellas County Judicial Building
                               545 First Avenue North
                               St. Petersburg, Florida

                 DATE:         February 19, 2001

                 TIME:         Commencing at 1:45 P.M.

                 REPORTED BY:  JACKIE L. OSTROM
                               Court Reporter

                            ORDERS TO SHOW CASE
                                                Pages 1266 - 1396
                                                Volume XI

                      ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
                                P.O. BOX 35
                            CLEARWATER, FLORIDA
                               (727) 443-0992



           The Honorable THOMAS E. PENICK, JR.

           911 Chestnut
           Clearwater, Florida

           3055 Wilshire Boulevard, Suite 900
           Los Angeles, California  90010

           Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Ship

           2716 Herschel Street
           Jacksonville, Florida  32205

           5720 Central Avenue
           St. Petersburg, Florida  33707

           Attorneys for Robert Minton and
           Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc.

.                                                                1268

       1                        PROCEEDINGS

       2            THE COURT:  Okay, ladies and gentlemen,

       3       please be seated.  Mr. Howie, sir.

       4   BY MR. HOWIE:

       5        Q    Your Honor, continuing with Mr. Minton,

       6   Mr. Minton, the tape that we saw concerning the

       7   January 7 incident with you and the two Clearwater

       8   police officers taken by Mr. Avila that evening, it

       9   shows you on the east sidewalk of Watterson walking

      10   southbound and then at one point you step out into the

      11   road.  Ask was your purpose in doing that?

      12        A    At the point where I was sort of stepping

      13   into the road it was to give a ten foot semicircle

      14   around these two police officers so that neither

      15   myself nor they would be violating the injunction.

      16        Q    Now, when you step out in the road, were the

      17   two officers directly on the sidewalk on the east side

      18   of Watterson?

      19        A    They were.

      20        Q    And did you in fact maintain your ten foot

      21   distance while you did that?

      22        A    I did.

      23        Q    Why did you think that these two officers

      24   were covered by the second temporary injunction?

      25        A    Well, I have had extensive discussions on

.                                                                1269

       1   the matter with Mr. Merrett and, you know,

       2   particularly since we were looking at people who were

       3   reasonably unconnected at all to Lisa McPherson Trust

       4   as being brought in under this injunction it stood to

       5   complete logic that people who were actually under the

       6   pay and employ take directions from the Church of

       7   Scientology while they're out there, you know,

       8   patrolling that 50 foot line area on the Watterson

       9   would be agents of Scientology; agent or employees or

      10   acting in active concert of participation with and,

      11   you know, Mr. Merrett was completely in agreement with

      12   that view and what had happened, you know, that

      13   evening another instance as far as I was concerned

      14   harassing people unnecessarily by these two police

      15   officers occurred and, you know, I want to try to make

      16   it clear to these guys that not only should they not

      17   be harassing people, but they should be obeying the

      18   injunction.

      19        Q    You, yourself, tried to obey the injunction

      20   during that time?

      21        A    I certainly did.

      22        Q    Did you ever see or hear an order in this

      23   case that off duty Clearwater police officers who were

      24   working for security for the Church of Scientology

      25   were specifically not covered by this injunction?

.                                                                1270

       1        A    No.

       2        Q    All right.  Now by stepping out in the

       3   street to avoid the police officers, was it your

       4   intent to embarrass or thwart this court in its

       5   functions?

       6        A    Absolutely not.

       7        Q    While you were stepping out in the street

       8   did you prevent any member of the Church of

       9   Scientology or any Scientology vehicles from going by

      10   you?

      11        A    There were no Scientology persons present in

      12   the street.  There were certainly buses where the

      13   buses had unloaded.  Buses were empty.  You know,

      14   there wasn't anything to impede and there was no

      15   traffic on the street during that time period.

      16        Q    Now, concerning the buses you saw on the

      17   west side of Watterson that you just reported, did you

      18   see anyone trying to get on or off these buses who

      19   were prevented from doing so by you stepping out to

      20   the street?

      21        A    No.

      22        Q    Did you during that time, during the entire

      23   episode or what you saw on the videotape, did you

      24   deliberately try to get within ten feet of any Church

      25   of Scientology members?

.                                                                1271

       1        A    No.

       2        Q    Did any Church of Scientology members get

       3   within ten feet of you?

       4        A    I think Antonio did.

       5        Q    That would be Antonio Avila?

       6        A    Right, the fellow who came out into the

       7   street to video the confrontation with the police.

       8        Q    Now, during the time when you had to step

       9   out into the street to avoid the police, were, you,

      10   yourself, doing any demonstrating or picketing?

      11        A    No.

      12        Q    And during that time did you harass or do

      13   violence to any member of the Church of Scientology?

      14        A    No, I didn't.

      15        Q    Now, you had an argument with the police

      16   that we saw on the videotape.  Did you ever get

      17   arrested or charged with disorderly conduct as a

      18   result of that evening?

      19        A    No.

      20        Q    Did you ever get arrested or charged with

      21   obstructing or opposing a law enforcement officer that

      22   evening?

      23        A    No, I didn't.

      24        Q    Did you charge or arrested for anything?

      25        A    No.

.                                                                1272

       1        Q    Did you later have any further contact with

       2   any Clearwater police officers that evening after this

       3   confrontation?

       4        A    Yes, I did.

       5        Q    What was the nature of that contact?

       6        A    Well, once the, quote, discussions, unquote,

       7   with the Clearwater Police Department guys had

       8   finished and I headed back to the LMT, they had called

       9   a Clearwater police supervisor, a lieutenant, whose

      10   name I don't recall, but one which was well-known to

      11   me, who came to Watterson Street and talked to the two

      12   Clearwater police officers.

      13             The lieutenant drove his car down the street

      14   to the LMT where I was still -- you know, he was

      15   really fast when he came to see the officers, it

      16   didn't take much.  I guess he had heard already what

      17   had happened.

      18            THE COURT:  Whoa, whoa, whoa.  Let me

      19       ask you something, Mr. Minton.  You said the

      20       lieutenant appeared in the scene, right?

      21            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you don't recall

      23       his name?

      24            MR. MINTON:  I don't.

      25            THE COURT:  All right.  And do you have

.                                                                1273

       1       any idea who called him?

       2            MR. MINTON:  I don't know whether it was

       3       the two officers or someone from Scientology.

       4       It was obviously, logically, I believe it was

       5       Scientology because the police officers were

       6       too busy talking to me.

       7            THE COURT:  Did you see either one of

       8       them in your presence --

       9            MR. MINTON:  No.

      10            THE COURT:  Okay.

      11            MR. MINTON:  Do their little thing on

      12       that thing, no.

      13            THE COURT:  Right, yeah.  And then you

      14       turned around and you started walking back to

      15       the LMT building; is that right?

      16            MR. MINTON:  That is correct.

      17            THE COURT:  Now --

      18            MR. MINTON:  On the east sidewalk.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.  But, you were not

      20       watching the police officers when you turned

      21       around and started heading back up north,

      22       were you?

      23            MR. MINTON:  No, I don't.

      24            THE COURT:  So you know if they went to

      25       the microphone or whatever they call that and

.                                                                1274

       1       called for help?

       2            MR. MINTON:  No.  Well, just again, you

       3       know, I'm making an assumption here, whether

       4       it's an accurate assumption or not.  By the

       5       time I got to the LMT within 15 feet of the

       6       door, the car with the lieutenant had come

       7       down there.

       8            THE COURT:  That brings up an

       9       interesting point.  From your personal

      10       observations?

      11            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      12            THE COURT:  What is the chain of command

      13       with these off duty officers who are being

      14       paid by an outside source?

      15            MR. MINTON:  Well, what I believe from

      16       first observation is that they have no

      17       authority to arrest anybody, that they have

      18       to call Clearwater and this has been

      19       repeatedly shown on a number of occasions

      20       where they've had to get a police officer who

      21       is not off duty to come there to deal with

      22       whatever the situation is that the two

      23       off-duty police officers have observed.

      24            THE COURT:  All right.  Now, you're

      25       telling me that an off-duty officer that's

.                                                                1275

       1       there at the alleyway and the white lines

       2       there on Watterson.

       3            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

       4            THE COURT:  For some reason feels that

       5       somebody needs to be apprehended, that they

       6       have to call an on-duty Clearwater police

       7       officer to come do that?

       8            MR. MINTON:  Well, I mean, you know, I

       9       don't think that would be the case if they

      10       actually saw a crime committed, but if they

      11       need, you know, some peace brought for

      12       example that, you know, doesn't necessarily

      13       require an arrest although it could, and I

      14       remember there was a fight in the restaurant

      15       two doors down from our office.

      16            THE COURT:  On the east side of the

      17       street?

      18            MR. MINTON:  No, on the west side, but

      19       in any case, you know, the guys up at the

      20       lines couldn't do anything about it.  They

      21       said so.

      22            They said we can't do anything.  We'll

      23        have to get you -- we have to call downtown

      24        there.

      25            THE COURT:  Well, let me ask you this,

.                                                                1276

       1       then.  If you raised a question in their

       2       minds that day, who would they be reporting

       3       to or where would they -- what superior

       4       officer would come to consult with them

       5       regarding an issue that you might have

       6       raised?

       7            I mean is there an off-duty chain of

       8        command or do they call the --

       9            MR. MINTON:  The regular command and a

      10       lot of times it's the, we call it the zone

      11       officer.  I'm not sure but --

      12            THE COURT:  I don't know what they call

      13       them but I know they have Clearwater

      14       parcelled out in various sectors.

      15            MR. MINTON:  Correct.  And for example,

      16       I'm not sure he's a lieutenant.  He might

      17       have been.  He was a very eloquent guy

      18       explaining to Keith Henson and Tory Bezazian

      19       and a couple other people in the side street

      20       there, Pierce -- he's said --

      21            THE COURT:  Is that the video we saw

      22       earlier?

      23            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

      24            THE COURT:  Now, he had on silver bars.

      25       I think he was a lieutenant.

.                                                                1277

       1            MR. MINTON:  Right.  I believe he said

       2       he was the night commander.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.

       4            MR. MINTON:  Normally for that area.

       5            THE COURT:  Then that person came that

       6       day?

       7            MR. MINTON:  No, it wasn't him.  It was

       8       somebody else.  You know, the with weekend,

       9       it was a Saturday so it's not always the same

      10       people who are the night watch commanders on

      11       any given night.

      12            THE COURT:  Okay.

      13            MR. MINTON:  But, he came out there and

      14       he came up to me, you know, parked the car on

      15       Watterson Street and he said hello,

      16       Mr. Minton.  He knew me by sight and I know

      17       him by sight, but I didn't remember his name

      18       at that moment, and he said I hear that it's

      19       kind of gotten pretty hot out here tonight

      20       and he said I just wanted to check with you

      21       and make sure you guys are all finished for

      22       the evening and he said we'll call this quits

      23       and I said we're going inside.  We're all

      24       finished for the evening and by that time the

      25       other two officers had walked down, the two

.                                                                1278

       1       off duty officers, Correa and Harbert and I

       2       said well, I can assure you that I'm finished

       3       for the night and won't be back out there.

       4            THE COURT:  Okay.  So the best of your

       5       knowledge he would have been on regular duty?

       6            MR. MINTON:  He was on regular duty,

       7       yes.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.

       9            MR. MINTON:  He police officers who are

      10       not on regular duty didn't drive -- generally

      11       speaking they don't drive the police cars to

      12       the site anymore.  They used to at the

      13       beginning, but there were a number complaints

      14       about that and now the only police officers

      15       who come to work the off duty who bring their

      16       car is canine.  The guys has to keep his dog

      17       in the car because he's, you know --

      18            THE COURT:  They have off-duty canine

      19       people?

      20            MR. MINTON:  They do at the white line

      21       sometime.

      22            THE COURT:  They do?

      23            MR. MINTON:  Yeah.  Not the dogs.  Te

      24       dogs stay in the car.  I mean, they'll take

      25       them out ever now and then to take them to

.                                                                1279

       1       the bathroom, but it's just, you know, the

       2       car is there because the police officer

       3       apparently keeps his dog at all times with

       4       him and it just stays in the car most of the

       5       day.

       6            I was a little nervous when this first

       7        started and saw the canine dogs out there,

       8        but it was just -- we were explained that

       9        it's just --

      10            THE COURT:  That's interesting.  The

      11       canine Clearwater police officer that's doing

      12       off duty, because he keeps the dog with him

      13       at a times has to drive a cruiser with air

      14       conditioning and keep it running while he's

      15       get are paid to do off duty?

      16            MR. MINTON:  It would depend on the

      17       weather.  They keep it running it it's hot,

      18       but when it's cool they've got all the

      19       windows open.

      20            THE COURT:  But, they just don't have

      21       the dog in his personal vehicle, private

      22       vehicle, but it's in a marked cruiser for the

      23       City of Clearwater?

      24            MR. MINTON:  Yeah, that says canine on

      25       it.

.                                                                1280

       1            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.

       2       Mr. Howie.

       3   BY MR. HOWIE:

       4        Q    Thank you, Your Honor.  Was that the extent

       5   of your contact with the lieutenant that evening that

       6   you just described?

       7        A    It was.

       8        Q    I want to go back to your contact with the

       9   to police officers on Watterson Street that evening.

      10   Now, you would admit that you did not show a lot

      11   deference to these officers in your communication with

      12   them; is that correct?

      13        A    That is correct.  I did not and, you know, I

      14   recognize that that's you know, not necessarily the

      15   smartest or most efficient way to try to communicate

      16   to two Clearwater police who are known to be somewhat

      17   difficult at times in the past in the dealings that

      18   various a people in the LMT have had with them.

      19        Q    All right.  In your communication with these

      20   two officers, was it your intent to show contempt for

      21   this court or obstruct this court?

      22        A    Not at all.

      23        Q    Okay.  You have indicated what you thought

      24   about this injunction.  As a result of all of these

      25   incidences, these five incidents that you've testified

.                                                                1281

       1   to, have do you continued to maintain your same

       2   position concerning the second temporary injunction?

       3        A    Yes, but as I said earlier, you know, having

       4   had some experience with it myself, you know, I think

       5   there is some things that could be tweaked a little

       6   bit to make it better, but, you know, even if it were

       7   left as it is I would be very much inclined personally

       8   to have the injunction made permanent.

       9        Q    Do you intend to continue to comply with

      10   this injunction as long as it's in place?

      11        A    I do.

      12        Q    In any of these instances was it ever your

      13   intent to show contempt to this court for its

      14   injunction?

      15        A    For this court or its injunction, no.

      16            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.  I don't have any

      17       further questions.

      18            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett,

      19       sir.

      20            MR. MERRETT:  If I can have just a

      21       second, Your Honor?

      22            THE COURT:  You may.

      23             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      24        place.)

      25            MR. MERRETT:  I don't have any

.                                                                1282

       1       questions, Your Honor.

       2            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Pope.

       3                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

       4   BY MR. POPE:

       5        Q    I'm sorry, Mr. Minton.  I didn't hear what

       6   your notes are that you have up there?

       7        A    Mr. Howie was listing the six or five

       8   incidents that are still outstanding in terms of this

       9   case and on the next page I wrote down questions on

      10   the video out there, the names of four officers from

      11   that so-called police video.

      12        Q    Are these notes that you wish to refer to

      13   during your cross-examination?

      14        A    If it relates to any of the incidents, yes.

      15        Q    Let's start with the January 7 police

      16   incident, since that's the one that you have been

      17   testifying about most recently.

      18             In the film that Mr. Bunker made, he

      19   concluded that by stating that the Clearwater Police

      20   Department has become the Scientology police force.

      21   Do you remember that line?

      22        A    Something to that effect.

      23        Q    All right, and that your state of mind when

      24   you were dealing with these policemen, you thought

      25   that they had in effect become agents of the Church of

.                                                                1283

       1   Scientology?

       2        A    No, I didn't think that they had become

       3   agents.  I knew full well that they were agent of the

       4   Church of Scientology.

       5        Q    Okay.  That was --

       6        A    I read the injunction extremely carefully to

       7   try to determine from our own prospective and this is

       8   a fully reciprocal injunction.  From our own

       9   prospective that the agency acting in active concert

      10   or participation with was and, you know, I was clearly

      11   thinking that these guys were agents of Scientology.

      12        Q    And it was that knowledge that entitled you

      13   and your opinion to get in their face and curse them?

      14        A    Well, I think if you viewed the video

      15   carefully, you would see that I did everything I could

      16   to avoid getting in their face.  In fact, I did

      17   everything I could to avoid getting within ten feet of

      18   them.  They came to get in my face.

      19        Q    And no matter who got into whose face first,

      20   you did say to one, you get your fucking ass away from

      21   me, correct?

      22        A    I did say that.

      23        Q    And then you said you are violating the

      24   fucking injunction, asshole; correct?

      25        A    That is correct.

.                                                                1284

       1        Q    All right.  It was your belief and your

       2   knowledge that these folk were agents of the

       3   Scientologists that allowed you to do that?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I have to

       5       object for lack of predicate.  By what are we

       6       debarred from speaking roughly to policemen?

       7            THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what?

       8            MR. MERRETT:  By what are we debarred by

       9       speaking roughly to policeman?  What warrants

      10       are we required.  There is a lack of

      11       predicate for the question.

      12            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I thought

      13       Mr. Minton was being represented by

      14       Mr. Howie.

      15            THE COURT:  I understand and

      16       let's -- the court is two timing Mr. Pope

      17       here.  I understand that you have a right to

      18       your respective clients, but in regards to --

      19       I take it this is an objection that was more

      20       of a question to the court.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  The objection is lack of

      22       predicate to the question.

      23            MR. HOWIE:  To get us back on track, I

      24       will raise the objection of lack of predicate

      25       for this question.  I'm also concerned about

.                                                                1285

       1       the relevance of this question.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Pope.

       3            MR. POPE:  I'll move on, Your Honor.

       4            THE COURT:  Thank you.

       5   BY MR. POPE:

       6        Q    Mr. Minton, as I understand your testimony,

       7   you did not inhibit anyone from entering or leaving

       8   the Bank of Clearwater Building during this episode of

       9   January 7; is that correct?

      10        A    I didn't say that.

      11        Q    Is that true, what I just said?

      12        A    I don't know whether that's true.

      13        Q    Okay.  You don't know whether you inhibited

      14   anyone from entering or leaving the Bank of Clearwater

      15   Building?

      16        A    Well, I certainly don't know.  I mean I'm

      17   there and I'm dealing with the police officers,

      18   Antonio is standing six to eight feet away from me.

      19   There is nobody getting in and out of the buses.

      20   There is no traffic coming down the street.  I don't

      21   know.

      22        Q    You're busy watching the police officers,

      23   correct?

      24        A    Watching and talking.

      25        Q    All right.  Now, the LMT has actually itself

.                                                                1286

       1   hired off-duty police, has it not?

       2        A    We have.

       3        Q    And you hired them to cover the press

       4   conference for Ursula Caberta, correct?

       5        A    Yes.  Principally we hired them for the

       6   press conference for Ursula Caberta because several

       7   Scientologists during that week came into or office

       8   shouting Nazi, go home, to Ursula Caberta and we

       9   certainly didn't want the press conference disrupted

      10   by Scientologists in need of expressing anger at

      11   Ursula Caberta.

      12            THE COURT:  Wait.  Let me get my

      13       bearings.  What week are you talking about?

      14            MR. MINTON:  For Mrs. Caberta?

      15            THE COURT:  Uh-huh.

      16            MR. MINTON:  That would have been back

      17       in July.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.

      19            MR. MINTON:  July, 2000.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.  And had your own

      21       police force?  Did you hire security?

      22            MR. MINTON:  We hired two off-duty

      23       Clearwater Police Department people for that

      24       one-day event.


.                                                                1287

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    And Mr. Minton, you also hired some off-duty

       3   police officers to bring security to a fund raiser you

       4   had or the LMT at the Club More, didn't you?

       5        A    We did not.

       6        Q    You did not?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    But at least for the Caberta matter, you

       9   hired these two police officers from this Scientology

      10   infected police force to offer you security; is that

      11   right?

      12        A    We were careful about who we got.

      13        Q    Okay.  Made sure that they weren't

      14   improperly tainted police officers?

      15        A    Best would could.

      16        Q    Now, you --

      17        A    The Club More thing that you mentioned,

      18   there were Clearwater Police Department people there

      19   guarding that event.  That event I might add was not

      20   organized by the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      21             It was local musicians in the Tampa,

      22   St. Pete and Clearwater area, put on a benefit concert

      23   for the Lisa McPherson Trust and covered all the

      24   expenses of that concern themselves and whatever

      25   proceeds of that concert that were raise were given to

.                                                                1288

       1   the Lisa McPherson Trust.  We didn't pay any expenses.

       2   BY MR. POPE:

       3        Q    Did they cover the cost of off-duty officers

       4   at that event?

       5        A    I'm sure they did.

       6        Q    Okay.  So somebody in connection with that

       7   event paid for off-duty Clearwater police officers to

       8   give them security, correct?

       9        A    Correct, but not the Lisa McPherson Trust.

      10            THE COURT:  Now, this is Club what?

      11            MR. MINTON:  More.  Right next to the

      12       police station, Your Honor.  Across from it

      13       there is a big parking lot and there is a

      14       rock club there and it's called Club More,

      15       M-O-R-E.

      16            THE COURT:  Is it in downtown

      17       Clearwater?

      18            MR. MINTON:  Yes.  Directly across from

      19       the police department is the parking lot for

      20       it and this group of musicians wanted to do a

      21       benefit concert to raise money for the Lisa

      22       McPherson Trust.

      23            THE COURT:  And to your knowledge

      24       somebody hire off-duty Clearwater policemen

      25       for that?

.                                                                1289

       1            MR. MINTON:  Yes, they did.

       2            THE COURT:  And when you say off-duty

       3       and you hire off-duty, are they still wearing

       4       uniforms like the off-duty do that work for

       5       the or at least are there out on Watterson?

       6            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

       7            THE COURT:  Okay.  Let me ask you

       8       something while we're talking about hiring

       9       these off-duty officers and everything else.

      10            What if you wanted to hire some off-duty

      11        officers from the sheriff's department or

      12        Florida Highway Patrol?

      13            MR. MINTON:  I think we could do that.

      14            THE COURT:  I don't know.  I just

      15       wondered if you had ventured into that area.

      16       I just was curious.

      17            MR. MINTON:  We never tried it but --

      18            THE COURT:  Spread the wealth.

      19            MR. MINTON:  Yeah, I'm sure they would

      20       like it.

      21            THE COURT:  Proceed.

      22   BY MR. POPE:

      23        Q    Now, with regard to your documentary tape

      24   that Mr. Bunker did, you heard Mr. Emmons say that he

      25   heard the Scientologists call Mr. Minton every name

.                                                                1290

       1   possible and they got in your face?

       2        A    I did hear him say that.  He just was making

       3   observations from having seen some video.

       4        Q    And isn't that the same thing you were doing

       5   to those two off-duty officer out there outside on

       6   Watterson?

       7        A    I'd say that was pretty accurate.

       8        Q    Mr. Emmons is a private investigator, isn't

       9   he?

      10        A    Yes.

      11        Q    And he's been paid by LMT or by you for

      12   services as a private investigator, correct?

      13        A    Well, he's never been paid by me and I have

      14   no knowledge that he's ever been paid by the LMT, but

      15   he might have.

      16        Q    And Mr. Krotz, K-R-O-T-Z?

      17        A    Krotz.

      18        Q    Krotz, now, he's also a private

      19   investigator, isn't he?

      20        A    He is.

      21        Q    Has he been paid by LMT to your knowledge?

      22        A    He's never been paid by LMT.

      23        Q    Or by you?

      24        A    Or by me.

      25        Q    These two private investigators were part of

.                                                                1291

       1   the film that Mr. Bunker made, correct?

       2        A    That were interviewed in it, yes.

       3        Q    All right.  Now, these --

       4        A    Mr. Emmons, who has an extensive history of

       5   dealing with Scientology in Clearwater, was kind of

       6   critical for background element of that film and Gabe

       7   Cazariz was also interviewed because of his background

       8   and knowledge.

       9        Q    Mr. Emmons is the fellow who said he

      10   investigated the Scientologists for 20 years and took

      11   his work product to every state and federal agency he

      12   could find and nobody would deal with it, right?

      13   That's what he said, isn't it?

      14        A    A lot of people are afraid to deal with

      15   Scientology.

      16        Q    Is that what he said?

      17        A    That's what he said.

      18        Q    All right.  Now, these officers out there?

      19        A    The two in the street that night?

      20        Q    On Watterson, they were in their full

      21   uniform, weren't they?

      22        A    They were.

      23        Q    With their badges on?

      24        A    They were.

      25        Q    With their weapons?

.                                                                1292

       1        A    With their weapon, yes, sir, in full view.

       2        Q    All right.  You indicated that you had

       3   discussed the terms of this injunction with

       4   Mr. Merrett, correct?

       5        A    That's correct.

       6        Q    But he's not your attorney, is he?

       7        A    Well, I discussed the terms of this

       8   injunction with Mr. Howie, as well, but there was one

       9   particular point sitting around the LMT one night we

      10   were discussing the position of the Clearwater police

      11   officers working for Scientology on those white lines.

      12        Q    Now, if I understood your testimony, one of

      13   your purposes for going out onto Watterson that

      14   evening was to make it real clear to these guys,

      15   meaning the police, that they should not harass and

      16   they should obey the injunction, correct?

      17        A    That is correct.

      18        Q    So you went out there to chat with them,

      19   right?

      20        A    I think you could see what I was saying as I

      21   walked by.

      22        Q    You were yelling through a megaphone at

      23   them, weren't you?

      24        A    I was not.  I believe if you look at the

      25   video there is no megaphone in my hand at that time.

.                                                                1293

       1        Q    You went out to make it clear how you

       2   expected these fellows to behave, correct?

       3        A    You know, after they have hassled two people

       4   from the Lisa McPherson Trust for some period of time,

       5   you know, I thought it was time to go talk to these

       6   guys and tell them as far as I'm concerned they're

       7   just as much a part of this injunction as anyone else.

       8        Q    But in talking to them you decided that they

       9   had to stay ten feet away from you because they were

      10   agents of the Church of Scientology, correct?

      11        A    I decided I had to stay ten feet away from

      12   them first.  They also had an equal obligation which

      13   they paid no attention to, to stay away from me.

      14        Q    And the lieutenant who came to you?

      15        A    Yes.

      16        Q    He basically said to you he just wanted to

      17   be sure you're finished for the night?

      18        A    He said, he said I understand things got a

      19   little hot out here this evening and I just wanted to

      20   make sure you guys were all finished for the night.

      21        Q    So, notwithstanding you having stood right

      22   in the face of two of his subordinates and cursed

      23   them, all he said to you was, from this biased police

      24   department was, I just wanted to be sure you are

      25   finished for the night and he didn't arrest you?

.                                                                1294

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Objection.  Assumes facts

       2       not in evidence.  There is no any evidence

       3       that this is a biased police force.

       4            MR. POPE:  Your Honor.

       5            THE COURT:  Thank you.  Thank you.

       6       Thank you.  Thank you.  Let's move right

       7       along here.  I've understood the testimony,

       8       the allegations and the statements that not

       9       all of them are.

      10            Now, just a minute while we've got this

      11        little break, again.  What were the names of

      12        the officers that you had that little thing

      13        with?

      14            MR. MINTON:  Harbert, who was one of the

      15       ones who testified up here on the stand, and

      16       Correa.  Jim, I think was his name, but I

      17       only heard that here in the courtroom, so I

      18       don't know.  I'm not sure.  C-O-R-R-E-A, I

      19       believe it was.  And Harbert is spelled I

      20       think, how it sounds.

      21            THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead,

      22       Mr. Pope.

      23   BY MR. POPE:

      24        Q    Mr. Minton, you stated in no uncertain

      25   terms, that you had no intent whatsoever to show

.                                                                1295

       1   contempt for the court, correct?

       2        A    That's correct.

       3        Q    But would you understand if a reasonable

       4   person watching that video might thing that you were

       5   showing a lot of contempt for those officers out on

       6   the street?

       7            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, objection.

       8       Irrelevant.

       9            THE COURT:  Overruled.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would join

      11       the objection in view fact of the fact that

      12       there is no such lawful charge such as

      13       contempt for the police.

      14            THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  What did you

      15       say?

      16            MR. MERRETT:  There is no lawful charge

      17       for contempt of the police, which is the

      18       question he's asking.  You weren't in

      19       contempt of the court, but you were in

      20       contempt of the cops.

      21            THE COURT:  Well, I understand that and

      22       let's move right along here, thank you.

      23            MR. POPE:  May I just respond.  In

      24       Paragraph 11, the last one in your injunction

      25       says any sworn law enforcement officer may

.                                                                1296

       1       assist in the execution or service of this

       2       injunction.

       3            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, being the author

       4       of those very eloquent words, I'm aware that

       5       that's there.  Thank you.

       6   BY MR. POPE:

       7        Q    Thank you.  Mr. Minton, let's go back.

       8   We're just going to run down these one at a time as

       9   you did.  Let's go to the camera episode.

      10        A    Yes.

      11        Q    You and Mr. Merrett both got up and touched

      12   it and moved it, correct?

      13        A    That is correct.

      14        Q    And you had a group of people watching you

      15   do this that I believe included Mr. Ward, Mr. Prince,

      16   Mr Keller, Ms. Bennett and Mr. Oliver, correct?

      17        A    I believe they were all there.

      18            THE COURT:  Now, I want to be sure the

      19       camera, we're talking about the spy camera

      20       now?

      21            MR. POPE:  The so-called spy camera.

      22            THE COURT:  The so-called spy camera

      23       incident?

      24            MR. POPE:  Right.

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.

.                                                                1297

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    So, what was the purpose of all of those

       3   folks, those five additional folks plus you and

       4   Mr. Merrett, in gathering around the ladder there to

       5   examine this camera?

       6        A    You know, I believe only Mr. Merrett and

       7   myself are still in any way implicated in that

       8   incident.

       9        Q    What was the purpose of those other folks

      10   being there.  Why did they tag along with you?

      11            MR. HOWIE:  Objection.  Irrelevant.  The

      12       court has already granted a JOA as to the

      13       individuals.

      14            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, it doesn't have

      15       to do with --

      16            THE COURT:  I understand.  I understand,

      17       that just because I decided that they don't

      18       fall under maybe contempt of the injunction

      19       there may be another purpose or something

      20       else.

      21            He has a right to inquire.  Let's

      22        proceed.  I'm not going to go back.

      23            MR. POPE:  I'm not going to ask you to.

      24            THE COURT:  I think I have res judicata.

      25   BY MR. POPE:

.                                                                1298

       1        Q    Mr. Minton, why did the other five people

       2   feel that they had to come out and tag along with you

       3   for the camera examination?

       4        A    Well, to be really honest with you,

       5   Mr. Pope, I don't know.  I know that I would not have

       6   been there had it not been for the fact that John

       7   Merrett asked me to come out there.

       8            THE COURT:  Mr. Minton, you said

       9       something that intrigues me.  I know we've

      10       got degrees of honesty here.  Now, you said

      11       you were going to be really honest.  Does

      12       that mean that's a little more honest than

      13       what you've been?

      14            MR. MINTON:  No, no, no.  I'm mean I'm

      15       telling the whole truth and nothing but the

      16       truth so help me God.

      17            THE COURT:  Okay.  I just get a little

      18       bit nervous when these people say well, I'm

      19       going to be honest on this one and I thought

      20       you have been under oath all along.

      21            MR. MINTON:  Yeah.  Like I said, I just,

      22       you know, I don't know why anybody went out

      23       there other than me.  From my own

      24       prospective, I went out there because John

      25       Merrett asked me to.  I knew where the ladder

.                                                                1299

       1       was upstairs and nobody else did that's how I

       2       got involved.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.

       4   BY MR. POPE:

       5        Q    Now. Mr. Minton, you remember that right

       6   next to the ladder there that you had placed out there

       7   is one of the entranceways to the Bank of Clearwater

       8   Building, correct?

       9        A    There is one close by there, yes.

      10        Q    In fact, you moved the ladder even a little

      11   bit closer to it so you could get over on one side and

      12   take a different angle shot; is that correct?

      13        A    Correct.  Yes.  After we finished taking the

      14   north side of the camera we moved the camera little

      15   bit to take a picture of the south side of it.

      16        Q    And as I understand it you and Mr. Merrett,

      17   together with this additional group of five people, it

      18   added up to about seven folks, did not inhibit anyone

      19   from entering or leaving the Bank of Clearwater

      20   incident right next to your ladder as you understand

      21   it?

      22        A    No.  Well, let me just explain something.

      23   No Scientologists go north from that point.  They are

      24   prohibited by Scientologist from traveling north on

      25   that sidewalk.  So as I had stated in my earlier

.                                                                1300

       1   testimony, when I was up on that later I saw the bread

       2   delivery going on.  You know, and I saw it going on is

       3   I saw it going in and out, bread going in and out.  It

       4   wasn't coming out, but the cart was coming out and

       5   getting more bread and going back in so, you know,

       6   there was never any question of blocking anything.

       7        Q    Okay.  And did you notice at the time that

       8   that door got closed?

       9        A    Well, the first think I noticed about the

      10   door in the video is that the door was closed at the

      11   beginning when we first put the ladder up.  It opens

      12   after we've got the ladder up and the bread delivery

      13   starts and the bread delivery continues and the bread

      14   delivery finishes.

      15        Q    But, I want to be sure of your testimony.

      16   Neither you or Mr. Merrett or the other five people

      17   inhibited anyone from entering or leaving the Bank of

      18   Clearwater Building through that door while you were

      19   there fooling with the camera.  That's true, isn't it?

      20        A    Absolutely not.  I mean it is true that we

      21   didn't inhibit anybody.

      22        Q    Okay.

      23        A    We absolutely did not inhibit anybody.

      24        Q    All right.  Now, with regards to this box

      25   that had the cameras in it, I was a little confused

.                                                                1301

       1   about your testimony.  You're not contending that that

       2   box was fastened to what we now know as the rat bait

       3   building?

       4        A    No, it wasn't fastened.  It was totally

       5   moveable way from rat bat building.

       6        Q    It was fastened to the Bank of Clearwater,

       7   wasn't it?

       8        A    Part was not.  Part was and part was not.

       9        Q    It would swivel.  There was a fastener on it

      10   and it would swivel back and forth, correct?

      11        A    There was a fastener on it?

      12        Q    Something was holding it up, correct?

      13        A    Well, I could attempt to try to draw it.

      14            THE COURT:  Let's do this.  Would you

      15       step down and to the best of your ability to

      16       answer his questions and let's have an

      17       artist's rendition of this because I'm

      18       totally confused with what's going on here

      19       too.

      20            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, my sole question

      21       was which building is it fastened to.

      22            THE COURT:  Well, maybe we'll get an

      23       answer this way.  Let's see what happens.

      24       Mr. Minton.

      25            MR. MINTON:  Yes.

.                                                                1302

       1            THE COURT:  Please bring it around so

       2       everybody can see.  I'll get off the bench

       3       and go down.

       4            MR. MINTON:  The conduit for the camera

       5       is running down -- first of all, Your Honor,

       6       if you would just remember here that this

       7       wall here between the two buildings there, it

       8       sticks out approximately -- well, roughly six

       9       inches.

      10            THE COURT:  One building sticks out a

      11       little bit further than the other.

      12            MR. MINTON:  The Clearwater Bank

      13       Building is recessed, yes.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.

      15            MR. MINTON:  And on the Clearwater Bank

      16       Building there is a conduit which I'll try to

      17       draw in a darker line here and which goes

      18       down in that corner.  It is attached to the

      19       Clearwater Bank Building and then at some

      20       point it has a loop and where that -- it's a

      21       little bit more of a bend than this, but

      22       where that bend is there is a little -- it's

      23       like a tripod.

      24            If you're familiar with a tripod, there

      25        is a thing that you can move and back and

.                                                                1303

       1        forth there and it lets you rotate the

       2        tripod all around.

       3            Well, by touching anywhere on this

       4        junction box you could move it out here, you

       5        can move it all the way over to here,

       6        because it freely rotated at this U-turn

       7        here or 45 degree turn because there is a

       8        bracket here.  It's not attached to anything

       9        at that moment in time.

      10            THE COURT:  Which building is that

      11       bracket attached to?

      12            MR. MINTON:  It's free folding between

      13       the rat bait building and the Scientology

      14       building.

      15            THE COURT:  Somewhere it's got to be

      16       tied down.

      17            MR. MINTON:  It is.  All the way along

      18       this Scientology building.  It's just when

      19       the bracket --

      20            THE COURT:  Oh, I see.

      21            MR. MINTON:  The bracket has to come up

      22       six inches, so --

      23            THE COURT:  So, that heavy black line

      24       you've drawn there is affixed to the Bank of

      25       Clearwater Building.

.                                                                1304

       1            MR. MINTON:  Right.

       2            THE COURT:  So they have it on a little

       3       goose neck or something so that it sticks

       4       out, whatever that is for they the depth of

       5       that building so if you see around the

       6       building, down towards your front door.

       7            MR. MINTON:  Correct.

       8            THE COURT:  That's your allegation?

       9            MR. MINTON:  That's right.  You know,

      10       when it comes from the bank building it's got

      11       to come out a few inches and then go around

      12       the corner to point in this direction.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.

      14            MR. MINTON:  So, it's where that

      15       junction is that freely moves.  It moved for

      16       Mr. Merrett the same way it moved for me.

      17            THE COURT:  I see.

      18            MR. MINTON:  With nothing breaking.

      19            THE COURT:  Now, that bigger camera

      20       that's up there above it about a foot or so

      21       that looks like it is a --

      22            MR. MINTON:  It's one of their normal

      23       security cameras.

      24            THE COURT:  Looking to the south of

      25       across there to the bread door and that way.

.                                                                1305

       1            MR. MINTON:  Correct.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.

       3            MR. MINTON:  That's all I can add,

       4       really.

       5            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

       6            MR. POPE:  I have no further questions

       7       about this, Your Honor about this.

       8            THE COURT:  Mr. Minton, do me a favor

       9       and put your initials on the lower right-hand

      10       corner of that and put todays date on it.

      11       Thank you.  Mr. Pope, you may proceed.

      12   BY MR. POPE:

      13        Q    Mr. Minton, you weren't very pleased about

      14   this camera box being trained on the LMT, were you?

      15        A    I think it's fair to say that anybody would

      16   find it intrusive.

      17        Q    Right.  This going up here and taking the

      18   picture and bringing the folks out was one of your

      19   forms of protesting it, wasn't it?

      20        A    Absolutely not.  It was Ms. Brooks' idea to

      21   bring in the court.  The fact that Scientology, by use

      22   these of these cameras is not only harassing us but

      23   it's also harassing the clients of the LMT who walk in

      24   our door, who get contacted by the Church of

      25   Scientology, either directly or through their spouse

.                                                                1306

       1   who are still in Scientology, to get after them in one

       2   way for their connection with LMT.

       3            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, hold on just a

       4       minute.  Let me get my notes here.

       5             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       6        place.)

       7            Okay.  Got it.  Thank you, sir.

       8   BY MR. POPE:

       9        Q    Mr. Minton, let's turn our attention to

      10   the --

      11            THE COURT:  Hold on just a minute.

      12            MR. MINTON:  There was actually another

      13       phrase I was going to add to the end of that.

      14            THE COURT:  Go ahead.

      15            MR. MINTON:  Just to add here.  You see,

      16       by the intrusive nature to the people that

      17       are coming to see us is that statistically

      18       only 1 in 80 people who are in Scientology

      19       stay in Scientology and Scientology tries

      20       extremely hard to keep anyone from leaving.

      21       And, you know, once people come to see us and

      22       they get followed, they get telephoned.

      23            Their husbands are contacted or the wife

      24        is contacted, you know, it's really a bad

      25        situation for them because immediately their

.                                                                1307

       1        family, their other family member who is

       2        still is Scientology begins to be forced

       3        into disconnection from these people or try

       4        to first bring them back into Scientology.

       5   BY MR. POPE:

       6        Q    I gather, Mr. Minton, that you would have no

       7   sympathy at all or understanding that the

       8   Scientologists might be concerned to keep tabs on a

       9   group that comes to town from out of town with the

      10   expressed purpose to expose the abusive and deceptive

      11   practice of the Church of Scientology?

      12             You wouldn't think that they were have any

      13   interest at all in security or keeping tabs on your

      14   comings and goings with that announced philosophy?

      15        A    Well, what I really think about it is that

      16   they shouldn't have any abusive or deceptive practices

      17   and then we wouldn't have to be there to watch them.

      18        Q    Let's go to the service of process issue,

      19   Mr. Minton.  That, as I recall, your first observation

      20   was that you come within ten feet of me you guys are

      21   going to get killed, correct?  Something about --

      22        A    That's correct.

      23        Q    As I understand that, what that meant was,

      24   you weren't going to kill these folks, the court was

      25   going to do it?

.                                                                1308

       1        A    Absolutely.

       2        Q    So the person who heard that statement

       3   needed to understand that you were talking only

       4   metaphorically and that these people would be hauled

       5   before the court and metaphorically killed by the

       6   court, correct?

       7        A    Well, she certainly pursued me.  She didn't

       8   start running the other way.

       9        Q    And you did know, did you not, on January 5,

      10   that this interpretation of this that applied to the

      11   ten foot rule and process servers had been clarified

      12   by the court five weeks earlier?

      13        A    I had absolutely no idea of that, Mr. Pope.

      14   Mr. Howie had are never told me about it.  Mr. Merrett

      15   never told me about it.  Ms. Brooks never told me

      16   about it.  And I'm only saying Ms. Brooks because she

      17   might have known about it.

      18        Q    So five weeks after that order you just

      19   don't even know about it?

      20        A    That's correct.

      21        Q    Okay.

      22        A    The last I heard, you know, when I left

      23   Clearwater was John Merrett was chasing a process

      24   server out of a restaurant.  I never heard anything

      25   about any change after that.

.                                                                1309

       1        Q    And as a matter of fact, Mr. Minton, you did

       2   not attend the several days of hearings that produced

       3   injunction number two, did you?

       4        A    That's correct.

       5        Q    Okay.  Well, did you learn about that right

       6   away, Injunction Number Two?

       7        A    I arrived in Clearwater the day that the

       8   injunction was signed and, yes, I did, because

       9   Mr. Howie gave my copy of the injunction to me -- to

      10   Mr. Merrett to bring back to the LMT for me.

      11        Q    So you got here on the first, was it?

      12        A    I believe it was the first.

      13        Q    All right.  And you knew about the

      14   injunction entered the previous day, but you didn't

      15   know about the change --

      16        A    No, sorry.  I got here on the 30th.

      17        Q    Okay.

      18        A    I got here the day that was signed.

      19        Q    So you knew about the injunction but you

      20   didn't know about the order clarifying it that was

      21   issued the next day?

      22        A    That's correct.

      23        Q    All right.  Now, you described Ms. Colton, I

      24   believe, as a nasty process server; is that right?

      25        A    I think I described her as a nasty PI.

.                                                                1310

       1        Q    Okay.

       2        A    I do not know hearsay basically what she has

       3   done inside of LMT which has been nasty.

       4        Q    Isn't it the case, Mr. Minton, that when she

       5   identified herself as a process server that you had

       6   the option of just standing there and taking the

       7   process peaceably?

       8        A    I could have done that.

       9        Q    All right.  And what you did was when you

      10   got the papers or they were thrust into the LMT door,

      11   you picked them up, wadded them, brought them out,

      12   threw them down to the sidewalk, correct?

      13        A    I didn't wad them up.

      14        Q    You just threw them down?

      15        A    I picked them up and threw them.

      16        Q    And you never did know what was served on

      17   that day, did you?

      18        A    That is correct.

      19        Q    Never did go out and pick them up?

      20        A    That is correct.  I believe the Scientology

      21   spy camera would probably show that sometime later

      22   that day Jesse Prince swept them up and threw them in

      23   the garbage can.

      24        Q    Do you understand, Mr. Minton, that a resort

      25   to courts and process is what our society is

.                                                                1311

       1   established to resolve disputes in lieu of bloodshed?

       2        A    I do.

       3        Q    All right.  Let's move our attention to

       4   January 6, focus for a minute of the Penick Picket

       5   Pole which is also called the Threep.

       6        A    Correct.

       7        Q    Is that what you described, Mr. Minton, in

       8   your testimony as an impressive piece of workmanship?

       9        A    Yes, it is.

      10        Q    Okay.  And as a tool to help enforce the

      11   injunction?

      12        A    That's right.

      13        Q    Now, you knew, did you not, that the

      14   injunction said stay ten feet back from the

      15   entranceways from the Coachman parking lot, didn't

      16   you?

      17        A    That's right.

      18        Q    And yet somehow that ten foot pole didn't

      19   prevent you from getting right in the middle of that

      20   entranceway, did it?

      21        A    Well, going from one side to the other

      22   you've got to go through the middle.

      23        Q    All right.  And you and Mr. Lerma,

      24   Ms. Gogolla, Mr. Enerson and I believe Mr. Merrett was

      25   along with you went right through that, correct?

.                                                                1312

       1        A    Yes, sir.

       2        Q    All right.  And the honking of the horn, the

       3   yelling, the dangling of the copy of the injunction,

       4   the reference to it as a Penick Picket Pole, all of

       5   those were just part of your efforts to respect and

       6   abide by the injunction; is that correct?

       7        A    Well, first of all, I never referred to it

       8   out on the streets anywhere as the Penick Picket Pole.

       9        Q    Did you hear what I said?  All of these

      10   things I just described were just part of your efforts

      11   to respect and abide by the injunction?

      12        A    I think that by looking at all the incidents

      13   here that I have gone out of my way to do everything I

      14   can to abide by the injunction and respect the

      15   injunction.  I stated so, not only on the internet,

      16   but privately to people and publicly to groups of

      17   people that I thought that having this injunction in

      18   place would be a very, very effective tool to stop

      19   principally from our prospective, Scientology

      20   harassment.

      21        Q    Now, when you left the Coachman Building

      22   area later on on January 6, you were walking north on

      23   Watterson, correct, going back to the LMT?

      24        A    Right.

      25        Q    And you were carrying the Penick Picket Pole

.                                                                1313

       1   at the time, correct?

       2        A    At this time I was always referring to it as

       3   the Threep, but, yes, it was named in honor of Judge

       4   Penick, just like Picket Chicken was named in honor of

       5   Judge Penick and I was proud to wear a Picket Chicken

       6   T-shirt.

       7        Q    And the other with you had the megaphones,

       8   correct?

       9        A    Yes, that's correct.

      10        Q    So you've got the Penick Picket Pole and

      11   they've got the megaphones and you're going north on

      12   Watterson on the east side, correct?

      13        A    Correct.

      14        Q    You're going back to the LMT?

      15        A    Right.

      16        Q    And before you get to the LMT for some

      17   reason you cross over the street, get right up next to

      18   the Bank of Clearwater Building and put the Penick

      19   Picket Pole up so that the injunction is dangling

      20   along side the second sorry windows of the buildings,

      21   in correct?

      22        A    Well, I saw the video and it is, yes.

      23        Q    And mean --

      24        A    And I'm moving while that's happening.

      25        Q    And meanwhile, the folks across the way are

.                                                                1314

       1   yelling through their megaphones, this, that, the

       2   other, about the Scientologists, correct?

       3        A    Well, they're still at the white line.  I'm

       4   going back.  I'm finished, but, yes.

       5        Q    They were yelling?

       6        A    They were.  They had at least one megaphone

       7   because I gave the megaphone I previously had back to

       8   Arnie Lerma.  So they had one or two megaphones.

       9        Q    Wouldn't you agree that that hanging --

      10   doing the picket pole up there and dangling it along

      11   the second story windows while the folks across the

      12   way yell and whoop about the Scientologists is a

      13   demonstration or an exercise of your First Amendment

      14   rights?

      15        A    No, I didn't think that at all.

      16        Q    You didn't think that?

      17        A    No.  I mean, I was finished.  The thing that

      18   was in -- you didn't see me along the way, you know,

      19   slide my arm in a forward direction to get the Penick

      20   Picket Pole at its maximum extended point.  It was

      21   just that it was the maximum length and it turned it

      22   up.

      23        Q    Weren't you doing a little bit of yelling

      24   along at the same time that the folks were yelling

      25   through the megaphones?

.                                                                1315

       1        A    I'd be happy to look through that video with

       2   you, but don't think that I was saying anything at

       3   that time.

       4            THE COURT:  Let's go back and get that

       5       video and crank it up.

       6            MR. POPE:  Where is it?

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, would you please

       8       help Mr. Pope put that video back up there

       9       and let's all take a look at it.

      10            Tell you what we'll do.  We'll take us a

      11        little ten minute break here and get that

      12        all set up and come back and take a look at

      13        it.

      14             (A short recess took place after which the

      15        proceedings continued.)

      16            THE COURT:  Do we have the tape in?

      17            MR. POPE:  I believe it's ready, Your

      18       Honor.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Minton, you take

      20       that chair out there and I'll move down there

      21       and let's put in that tape in let's just take

      22       a look at what where talking about here.

      23             (Whereupon, the videotape was played to the

      24        court.)

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.

.                                                                1316

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    Mr. Minton, I thought I heard somebody on

       3   there yelling Render, Render, no 0Ts here and it

       4   sounded like your voice to me.  Was that you?

       5        A    It didn't sound like my voice to me.  It

       6   sounded like Arnie Lerma's.

       7        Q    Okay.  Somebody was protesting, correct?

       8        A    Absolutely.

       9        Q    All right.  Now, Mr. Minton, you are the

      10   founder and chairman of the board of Lisa McPherson

      11   Trust, Incorporated, correct?

      12        A    Correct.

      13        Q    And could you -- when was that founded?

      14   What year were you incorporated?

      15        A    Late 1999, I believe.

      16        Q    So it's been in existence for a little over

      17   a year?

      18        A    Correct.

      19        Q    In that one-year period how much money have

      20   you personally put into it?

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Objection.  Relevance.

      22            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      23            MR. HOWIE:  We object on the grounds of

      24       relevance, Your Honor.

      25            THE COURT:  Mr Pope?

.                                                                1317

       1            MR. POPE:  It goes to the whole bias,

       2       prejudice, Your Honor.

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, we've already

       4       established Mr. Minton has a very strong

       5       opposition to the Church of Scientology

       6       through the corporation.  I hardly see how

       7       there is any additional probative value.

       8            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would only

       9       stipulate that we get to put on Mr. Shaw and

      10       find out how many millions of dollars

      11       Scientology has raked in over a similar

      12       period to establish that bias and prejudice

      13       and we may be able proceed.

      14            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, that was entirely

      15       uncalled for and I move to strike it.

      16            THE COURT:  Struck.  Now, I think it's

      17       well established that Mr. Minton has funded

      18       this or said he established it.  I don't know

      19       when I say funded where that stands today.

      20       But, I'll let him answer this one question

      21       and then we'll move on.  I'm not going to get

      22       in the final nuances of this line.

      23   BY MR. POPE:

      24        Q    Mr. Minton, in round numbers, how much money

      25   had you infused into LMT, Incorporated from the date

.                                                                1318

       1   of incorporation to date?

       2        A    Probably about 1.3 million.

       3        Q    Now, Mr. Minton, you said during your

       4   testimony that Scientologists were trying to persuaded

       5   Scott Brower who is the CPA who sold you 33 North

       6   Ft. Harrison, not to have anything to do with you

       7   because you were terrible people.  Do you remember

       8   saying that?

       9        A    I heard them say it myself.

      10        Q    Okay.  Isn't that exactly what you're

      11   telling people about Scientology?

      12        A    I've got a little brochure right out here

      13   somewhere that will tell you exactly what I'm telling

      14   you about Scientology and that's not it.

      15            MR. POPE:  Okay.  That's all I have,

      16       Your Honor.

      17            THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Merrett.

      18                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

      19   BY MR. MERRETT:

      20        Q    Briefly, Your Honor.  Mr. Minton, on the

      21   December 4 incident with the camera, isn't it true

      22   that from the entire time during which the ladder was

      23   moved south of the camera, there was a policeman there

      24   watching and supervising the whole operation?

      25        A    That is correct.

.                                                                1319

       1        Q    And that the policeman who somebody swore on

       2   Scientology's behalf told you to leave?

       3        A    That's correct.

       4        Q    That policeman never told anybody to leave,

       5   right?

       6        A    Nor did he grab my leg and pull me off the

       7   ladder.

       8        Q    Okay.  Now, can you give the judge an idea

       9   as you talked about 1.3 million dollars for the Lisa

      10   McPherson Trust, can you tell the court how much it

      11   cost one person to find out about Xenu and the space

      12   cooties, approximately?

      13        A    Well, less than a tenth of a cent.

      14        Q    Well, I mean to find out through

      15   Scientology?  It's over a-quarter-of-a-million

      16   dollars, isn't it?

      17        A    Well, keep in mind, Mr. Merrett, that is it

      18   the Xenu story, the Xenu and the space aliens which is

      19   part of the Scientology cosmology.  It's something

      20   that I personally find to be a very rich part of the

      21   tapestry of religious beliefs in this country.

      22   However, there are certain things about those beliefs

      23   that Scientology has where they lie to people and

      24   deceive people into paying $360,000 --

      25            MR. POPE:  Your Honor --

.                                                                1320

       1            THE COURT:  Mr. Minton, hold on.  Hold

       2       on.  Hold on.

       3            MR. POPE:  We're getting back into the

       4       old let's put the Scientologist's beliefs on

       5       trial business.

       6            MR. MERRETT:  I'll restate the question,

       7       Your Honor.

       8            THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.

       9   BY MR. MERRETT:

      10        Q    What's the ticket for the total package when

      11   you go in Scientology up through approximately OT7 or

      12   whatever is presently available, how much do they

      13   charge a person for that?

      14            MR. POPE:  Objection.  What in the world

      15       does that have to do with anything in this

      16       witness' cross-examination?  It's totally

      17       irrelevant.

      18            It's designed to poke around in the

      19        beliefs and practices of the Scientologists,

      20        an issue that is beside the point.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Well, I will stipulate

      22       that money is at the very heart of

      23       Scientology's beliefs and practices.  The

      24       relevance was raised by Mr. Pope's suggestion

      25       to the court that --

.                                                                1321

       1            THE COURT:  He can answer.  Let's move

       2       on.

       3   BY MR. MERRETT:

       4        Q    About $350,000 a head, right?

       5        A    Not quite.  If you have money, they'll take

       6   more money, but $360,000 is sort of a minimum ticket,

       7   unless you join the Sea Org for a billion years and

       8   then they'll let you get most of your services for

       9   free, but you'll never get to these high OT levels.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you.  I don't have

      11       anything further.

      12            MR. HOWIE:  I have no further questions,

      13       Your Honor.

      14            MR. POPE:  Nothing further, Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Sir, you may step down.

      16       Hold on.  Hold to.  You want to ask another

      17       question?  I saw him rush up there and hand

      18       you that and I figured that --

      19            MR. POPE:  I do want to ask another

      20       question, but it's not the one he handed me.

      21            THE COURT:  Well, all right.  Go ahead.

      22       Ask the question.

      23                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION

      24   BY MR. POPE:

      25        Q    Mr. Merrett asked you if the police officer

.                                                                1322

       1   was watching and supervising.  Was this police officer

       2   supervising you out there?

       3        A    I guess supervising might be the wrong word.

       4   What he said, which I said earlier was you don't mind

       5   if I stand here and watch while you guys finish up.

       6   That could be supervising, observing.

       7        Q    Did you invoke the provisions of the ten

       8   foot rule and tell him to get away to a distance of

       9   ten feet?

      10        A    No, I didn't.

      11            MR. POPE:  Okay.  Thank you.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  Briefly, Your Honor?

      13            THE COURT:  You may.

      14                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

      15   BY MR. MERRETT:

      16        Q    Twelve foot ladder, right?

      17        A    Correct.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Nothing further.

      19            MR. MINTON:  And he's a very nice police

      20       officer.

      21            MR. HOWIE:  No further questions.

      22            THE COURT:  You may step down, sir.

      23            MR. MINTON:  Thank you.

      24            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, at this time

      25       Robert Minton would rest.

.                                                                1323

       1            THE COURT:  All right Mr. Pope, you have

       2       some rebuttal witnesses?

       3            MR. POPE:  I have three rebuttal

       4       witnesses, rather brief rebuttal witnesses.

       5            THE COURT:  Are you ready?  Are they

       6       here?

       7            MR. POPE:  We're ready.  Lindsey Colton

       8       is the one.

       9            THE COURT:  Okay.  Bring her in, please.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I ask that

      11       there be a proffer as to testimony to be

      12       offered by each of these witnesses do ensure

      13       that what we're not doing is filling in holes

      14       in Scientology's case in chief as opposed to

      15       dealing with new matters raised in the

      16       defense case.

      17            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I'm under no

      18       obligation to do that.  If he doesn't like

      19       it, he can object as we move along.

      20            THE COURT:  Let's go, Mr. Pope.  Is she

      21       here?

      22            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, you directed that

      23       Ms. Colton testify.

      24            THE COURT:  I know that.  Hold on just a

      25       minute.  I know.  Here she comes.

.                                                                1324

       1            She's been previously sworn.  I'm going

       2        to continue her under that oath and bring

       3        her forward, please.  Let's do rebuttal

       4        first.

       5            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, actually it's

       6       rebuttal relative to the issue you raised.

       7            THE COURT:  Well, go for it.

       8            MR. POPE:  Okay.

       9            THE COURT:  Let's get into it.

      10                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      11   BY MR. POPE:

      12        Q    Tell us your name, please?

      13        A    Lindsey Colton.

      14        Q    Your occupation, Ms. Colton?

      15        A    I'm a private investigator and a process

      16   server.

      17        Q    And bring your attention to January 5, 2001,

      18   your efforts to serve process on Mr. Minton outside

      19   the LMT.

      20        A    Okay.

      21        Q    Were you there?

      22        A    Yes.

      23        Q    Now, you served upon him on that day how

      24   many different packages of process?

      25        A    Well, it was one at attempt, one turn, but I

.                                                                1325

       1   had eight different documents for county court,

       2   circuit court and I had two subpoenas for federal

       3   court so it was two different issues, to different

       4   types the process.

       5        Q    Two different courts?

       6        A    Correct.

       7        Q    All right.  I want to show you two documents

       8   entitled subpoena in a civil case.  May I, Your Honor?

       9            THE COURT:  Yes, sir.

      10   BY MR. POPE:

      11        Q    And ask you to identify those.

      12        A    Yes.

      13        Q    What are?

      14        A    These are two subpoenas in district court

      15   that I had served on Mr. Minton.

      16        Q    Now, are those the originals?

      17        A    They are and they're initialled and dated

      18   and timed by me.

      19        Q    Now, why would you not file those in this

      20   court?

      21        A    Because this case isn't relevant in this

      22   court.  It is a different district, different type of

      23   court case.

      24        Q    What date and time did you serve those on

      25   Mr. Minton?

.                                                                1326

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Objection, Your Honor.  This

       2       is irrelevant.  The court has no jurisdiction

       3       over these subpoenas nor does the court have

       4       jurisdiction to punish issue for any action

       5       that was taken in relation to these

       6       subpoenas.

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie, we've already had

       8       some testimony and we got into some of

       9       Ms. Colton's prior sworn statements.  And

      10       this is absolutely relevant and let's

      11       proceed.

      12            MS. COLTON:  The dates is January 5,

      13       2001 at 4:15 PM.

      14            MR. POPE:  All right.  May I?  I offer

      15       these into evidence, Your Honor, as a

      16       composite exhibit.

      17            THE COURT:  All right, January 5 at what

      18       time?

      19            MR. POPE:  4:15 PM.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.  I'm not sure what

      21       number that will be.  That will be your

      22       exhibit --

      23            MR. POPE:  I've lost track, Your Honor.

      24            MS. KOBRIN:  18.

      25            THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Hand me that

.                                                                1327

       1       just a minute.  Mr. Pope, my only concern,

       2       the reason I'm hesitating a minute, you want

       3       to put copies of this in the state -- these

       4       look like originals.

       5            MR. POPE:  They are.

       6            THE COURT:  Aren't these supposed to be

       7       in the federal file.

       8            MR. POPE:  You don't file subpoenas in

       9       federal court unless there is an issue about

      10       them in that court and the date for these

      11       depositions have passed, that's why I offered

      12       the original, but I will substitute copies.

      13            THE COURT:  All right.  I'd rather see

      14       you do that.  Bear with me a minute.

      15             (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 18 was

      16        admitted into evidence.)

      17            THE COURT:  All right.  Please proceed.

      18   BY MR. POPE:

      19        Q    Now, Ms. Colton, let me show you another

      20   return on service in this case and for the benefit of

      21   counsel, I have served copies of this on them earlier.

      22   This is the only copy I happen to have.  It's also in

      23   the court file.  Ms. Colton would you look at that?

      24        A    Yes.

      25        Q    What is that?

.                                                                1328

       1        A    This is my return of service for the

       2   additional documents that I served on Mr. Minton on

       3   that day.

       4        Q    Along with the federal subpoenas?

       5        A    Correct.

       6        Q    And do you have an Attachment A to this?

       7        A    Yes, I do.

       8        Q    And that lists the documents you served?

       9        A    Yes, it does.

      10            MR. POPE:  May I offer this in evidence,

      11       Your Honor?

      12            THE COURT:  You can.  That will be 19.

      13       The original of this is in the court file let

      14       the record so reflect.  Bear with me, please.

      15             (Whereupon, Plaintiff's Exhibit 19 was

      16        admitted into evidence.)

      17            That's in evidence.

      18            MR. POPE:  I have no further questions

      19       of this witness.

      20                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      21   BY MR. HOWIE:

      22        Q    May it please the court, ma'am, you do

      23   understand that these subpoenas are federal subpoenas,

      24   correct?

      25        A    Correct.

.                                                                1329

       1        Q    All right.  And that they have nothing to do

       2   with this particular case; you understand that, don't

       3   you?

       4        A    Correct.

       5        Q    And in fact when you served a bunch of

       6   papers on Mr. Minton to January 5, all these papers

       7   were intermingled together, correct?

       8        A    No, the subpoenas were on top and the other

       9   items were on the bottom because I had them on a

      10   bulldog clip.  Because of the some of the papers I had

      11   a clip on them.

      12        Q    All right.  Now.  For purposes of

      13   clarification, you filed with this court a return of

      14   service, correct?

      15        A    Correct.

      16        Q    And as part of that return of service you

      17   attached an exhibit?

      18        A    Correct.

      19        Q    And that exhibit listed documents that

      20   pertained only to this case, correct?

      21        A    Correct.

      22        Q    All right.  And you did not list these

      23   subpoenas because these subpoenas don't pertain to

      24   this case?

      25        A    Yes.

.                                                                1330

       1            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.  I don't have any

       2       further questions.

       3                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

       4   BY MR. MERRETT:

       5        Q    Now, as I understand it, anybody can serve a

       6   subpoena, anybody who is not a party or interested in

       7   an action, correct?

       8        A    Correct.

       9        Q    And the sheriff is required for state cases,

      10   like the ones for that are listed on that link to your

      11   return of service, the sheriff is required to serve

      12   everything except initial unenforceable civil process,

      13   correct?

      14        A    He is required to serve enforceable process.

      15        Q    Right.  Everything except initial,

      16   unenforceable service of process?

      17        A    Right.

      18        Q    I want you run through that list and tell me

      19   what those documents are?

      20            MR. POPE:  Excuse me. Your Honor.

      21       Mr. Merrett, this testimony goes only to

      22       Mr. Minton.  She has been cross-examined by

      23       Mr. Minton's counsel and Mr. Merrett has no

      24       standing to get another bite at the apple if

      25       this testimony doesn't relate to any of his

.                                                                1331

       1       client.

       2            MR. MERRETT:  Well, that was certainly

       3       surly enough, But I believe I'm entitled to

       4       cross-examine the witness.

       5            THE COURT:  All along I've given

       6       everybody an ample opportunity for

       7       cross-examination in this case and I'm going

       8       to allow him to proceed with this.  And I'm

       9       going to hand her the Exhibit 19, which is

      10       right here which has that attachment to it

      11       and I'll hand it to you, okay.

      12   BY MR. MERRETT:

      13        Q    If you would look there and tell me which of

      14   this is initial process, first?

      15             (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.)

      16             Or subpoenas, either one?

      17            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, it hasn't been

      18       established that this witness knows the

      19       difference between initial process and any

      20       other form of process.  He needs to lay a

      21       proper predicate.

      22            MR. MERRETT:  I'm satisfied with the

      23       stipulation, Judge, she doesn't know her job.

      24       I have no other questions.

      25            THE COURT:  Take the paperwork back.

.                                                                1332

       1       Now, hold on.

       2            Ma'am, in this case I'm going to hand

       3        you a document which is Circuit Court which

       4        is case 99-7430-CI-8 and let me hand you

       5        this document and see if you recognize it

       6        and see if your signature is on that

       7        document?

       8             (Whereupon, documents were reviewed.)

       9            MS. COLTON:  Yes.

      10            THE COURT:  All right, now what is that

      11       document?

      12            MS. COLTON:  That is an affidavit that I

      13       wrote up at after I served Mr. Minton.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, that's an

      15       affidavit; is that correct?

      16            MS. COLTON:  Yes.

      17            THE COURT:  And whose signature is on

      18       that affidavit?

      19            MS. COLTON:  My signature.

      20            THE COURT:  What is an affidavit?

      21            MS. COLTON:  An affidavit is a statement

      22       of facts, true facts.

      23            THE COURT:  True facts.

      24            MS. COLTON:  Correct.

      25            THE COURT:  Is it under oath?

.                                                                1333

       1            MS. COLTON:  Yes.

       2            THE COURT:  I see.  All right.  And read

       3       that to, us please, if you would.  Just take

       4       your time and read it slowly out loud?

       5            MS. COLTON:  Lindsey Colton, being first

       6       duly sworn declares and states:  Number one,

       7       I am over the age of 18 and I am a licensed

       8       Florida private investigator, I have personal

       9       knowledge of the facts set forth below if

      10       called upon to do so could testify

      11       competently thereto.

      12            Number two, on January 5, 2001 I was

      13        attending to the service of Robert Minton.

      14        I was on the Watterson Avenue just south of

      15        the Lisa McPherson Trust when Mr. Minton

      16        pulled up in a car.  As I approached,

      17        Mr. Minton saw me from his rear view mirror.

      18        Mr. Minton got out of the car and he as he

      19        was doing so yelled, listen, you come within

      20        ten feet of me you guys are going on get

      21        killed.  I informed Mr. Minton that I had

      22        process for him, a subpoena for deposition.

      23        Mr. Minton ran into the building saying get

      24        the fuck out of here.

      25            The copy is not clear.  I think number

.                                                                1334

       1        four says Mr. Minton attempted to close the

       2        door while it was still open about five

       3        inches --

       4            THE COURT:  Hold on just a minute.  I'm

       5       sorry, I shouldn't do that to you.

       6            Here.  That is a bad copy.  Here is the

       7        original.

       8            Go ahead and go to the second page of

       9        that.

      10            MS. COLTON:  Thank you.  Number four,

      11       Mr. Minton attempted to close the door while

      12       it was still open about five inches.  I

      13       managed to throw the papers into in the LMT

      14       before the door closed completely.

      15            Mr. Minton picked up the papers and came

      16        back out of the doors saying you better get

      17        your ass out of here lady and walked away

      18        from the door and stated he has been served.

      19        Mr. Minton again yelled you better get your

      20        ass out of here.

      21            Number five, as I was walking away,

      22        Mr. Minton threw the papers towards me and

      23        they scattered on the ground.

      24            Number six, a true and correct copy of

      25        the video which contains truly and

.                                                                1335

       1        accurately reflects these events is attached

       2        to the January 9, 2001 affidavit event as

       3        Exhibit A.  Lindsey Colton.

       4            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, you filed that

       5       here in the state court case, right.

       6            MS. COLTON:  Right.

       7            THE COURT:  Okay.  And in there you're

       8       talking about serving some subpoenas for

       9       depositions?

      10            MS. COLTON:  Yes.

      11            THE COURT:  Okay, would you file that in

      12       a state court case?

      13            MS. COLTON:  Okay.  The reason I filed

      14       the affidavit was my opening statement to

      15       Mr. Minton was that I had the subpoenas.  The

      16       subpoenas were date sensitive meaning that

      17       they had to appear certain times that was

      18       close, so whatever I have process of, I give

      19       the date sensitive process first or address

      20       the date sensitive process.

      21            My affidavit was to show that while I

      22        served him he made those statements his me.

      23        I had other documents, too. but he

      24        interrupted me at the time that I announced

      25        who I was and what I was serving him with.

.                                                                1336

       1            THE COURT:  Okay, but when you file a

       2       document in the state court file, where do

       3       you think that document is going to wind up?

       4            MS. COLTON:  In the state file, I guess.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  In front of a state

       6       court judge or a federal judge?

       7            MS. COLTON:  State court judge.

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, what do you

       9       think is a little more important to a state

      10       court judge, what you're serving in the state

      11       court case or federal case?

      12            MS. COLTON:  The state case.

      13            THE COURT:  Why did you make reference

      14       to the subpoenas in there?  They don't have

      15       anything to do with me?

      16            MS. COLTON:  Correct.

      17            THE COURT:  Now, when are you telling

      18       the truth?  Are you telling the truth now or

      19       were you telling the truth then or are you

      20       just totally confused?  Should I just

      21       disregard everything you've said in this

      22       court so far?

      23            MS. COLTON:  I was telling the truth

      24       then and I'm telling the truth now.

      25            THE COURT:  How do I believe you?

.                                                                1337

       1            MS. COLTON:  I served him subpoenas and

       2       I served him eight other documents.

       3            THE COURT:  But that doesn't say that --

       4            MS. COLTON:  But those --

       5            THE COURT:  Ma'am, I'm asking the

       6       questions.

       7            MS. COLTON:  Okay.

       8            THE COURT:  That doesn't say that, does

       9       it?

      10            MS. COLTON:  I also file that return of

      11       service which listed those other documents

      12       that I did serve.

      13            THE COURT:  Are you trying to mislead

      14       me?

      15            MS. COLTON:  No.

      16            THE COURT:  Ms. Colton, I find it very

      17       suspect that you would in an affidavit

      18       addressed to a state judge, state in there

      19       that you're serving subpoenas.  That may be a

      20       fact, but that has no bearing on my case and

      21       quite frankly, so that you understand the

      22       ramifications and the seriousness of what

      23       you've done is that in a state court case,

      24       subpoenas you serve on the attorney.  You

      25       don't have to chase somebody up and down

.                                                                1338

       1       Watterson Avenue.

       2            This man was represented by an attorney

       3        of record, whereas the other documents you

       4        served you certainly had a right to chase

       5        him up and down Watterson Avenue.  And you

       6        need to pay a little closer attention to the

       7        people that are paying your check or you

       8        need to go back and again and look at the

       9        law and see what you're doing when you go

      10        out there on the street.  Do you have any

      11        questions about what I just said to you?

      12            MS. COLTON:  No, I don't.

      13            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

      14            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, I wanted to point

      15       out that the purpose of her affidavit was to

      16       recite what she had said to Mr. Minton.  What

      17       she said to you in testimony was I started to

      18       say she had federal subpoenas and a whole

      19       package of other.

      20            She started to say subpoenas and then he

      21        interrupted her.  The function of that

      22        affidavit was merely to say this is what she

      23        said to him, not to mislead the court.

      24            I mean she had federal and state things

      25        she was trying to serve at the same time.

.                                                                1339

       1        She filed that affidavit then recites what

       2        she said.  The federal subpoenas she

       3        wouldn't file in here because it's not in

       4        this case, but she did file the return on

       5        service and I filed a compendium of return

       6        on service and I don't believe that this

       7        woman has done anything to try to mislead

       8        the court at all.  This is just a

       9        misunderstanding.

      10            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, I appreciate your

      11       stand on the issue.

      12            MR. POPE:  Thank.

      13            THE COURT:  You may step down as far as

      14       I'm concerned.  Mr. Pope, call your next

      15       witness.

      16            MR. POPE:  Call Barbro Wennberg.

      17            THE COURT:  Is she here?

      18            MR. POPE:  She's in the jury room. Your

      19       Honor.

      20            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, let's take a

      21       little break.  I want to see the attorneys in

      22       my chambers.

      23             (Thereupon, the following proceedings were

      24        had out of the presence of the audience:)

      25            The reason I asked you all to come in

.                                                                1340

       1        here was after I finished with Ms. Colton

       2        and she went back and sat down, I assume

       3        that was her husband she went and sat down

       4        by.

       5            MR. POPE:  I believe it is, Your Honor.

       6            THE COURT:  And there was a lady sitting

       7       in the row if front of her, had on a red

       8       jacket I believe.  She -- as Ms. Colton went

       9       by it seemed to me there was some eye contact

      10       and nodding and everything and Ms. Colton

      11       went and sat down and this lady jumped up and

      12       rushed out of the courtroom and threw the

      13       door open very dramatically, went charging

      14       got in a elevator and when she got in she

      15       kept looking in the courtroom and everything

      16       and I got some feeling that this lady was on

      17       a mission or something on behalf of Colton

      18       and the Church.  I'd like to know her name.

      19            MR. POPE:  I don't know who you're

      20       talking about, judge.  Do you?  I don't

      21       really --

      22            THE COURT:  She had been sitting there

      23       with Avila and that other young man

      24       throughout all these proceedings.

      25            MR. POPE:  Young girl?

.                                                                1341

       1            THE COURT:  Uh-huh.

       2            MR. POPE:  Tall?

       3            THE COURT:  Fairly tall, long black

       4       hair.

       5            MR. POPE:  What's is her name.  I don't

       6       even know her name.  I mean I'm watching

       7       what's going on at the bench and not the

       8       audience.

       9            THE COURT:  I know you are but I'd like

      10       that information.

      11            MS. KOBRIN:  Can I tell you what I

      12       suspect was going on?

      13            THE COURT:  Uh-huh.

      14            MS. KOBRIN:  The next witness I believe

      15       was waiting upstairs in the library and it

      16       was someone had probably told her to go get

      17       the witness as soon as Ms. Colton was done

      18       and --

      19            THE COURT:  I didn't see anybody.

      20            MS. KOBRIN:  No, I mean somebody

      21       probably instructed her in advance that when

      22       Ms. Colton was finished she should get the

      23       next witness down.

      24            THE COURT:  Who was up there?

      25            MR. POPE:  Uh-huh.

.                                                                1342

       1            THE COURT:  That's why I asked.

       2            MS. KOBRIN:  She was up in the library

       3       and I thing she went up to get her to come

       4       down so that she could --

       5            THE COURT:  That was my first reaction

       6       and that's why I asked Mr. Pope where's your

       7       witness.

       8            MR. POPE:  Right.

       9            THE COURT:  And he said in the room,

      10       then I thought that takes care of that.

      11            MR. POPE:  She was apparently in the --

      12       she was upstairs reading in the library.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.

      14            MR. POPE:  Putting her time to good use.

      15            THE COURT:  Well, commend her for that.

      16            MR. POPE:  I believe that is right

      17       because I told them that she would be after

      18       Ms. Colton finished that they should get the

      19       other witness.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.

      21            MR. POPE:  That's what that's all about.

      22            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's see if we

      23       got her and we'll, you know, grab that next

      24       witness and get going.  I just get a little

      25       concerned when see -- okay.  Let's pick it

.                                                                1343

       1       up.

       2             (Thereupon, the sidebar conference was

       3        concluded and the following proceedings were had

       4        in the audience:)

       5            MR. POPE:  Mr. Pope, call your next

       6       witness, please.

       7            THE COURT:  Barbro Wennberg.

       8   Thereupon:

       9                      BARBRO WENNBERG

      10   was called as a witness and having been duly sworn, was

      11   examined and testified as follows:

      12                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      13            THE COURT:  Come forward and have a seat

      14       in the chair, please.

      15   BY MR. POPE:

      16        Q    Would you tell us your name, please?

      17        A    Barbro Wennberg.

      18        Q    Would you spell your name?

      19        A    B-A-R B--R-O  W-E-N-N-B-E-R-G?

      20        Q    So it's Barbro Wennberg?

      21        A    Yes.

      22        Q    What is your occupation?

      23        A    I'm a Deputy Chief Steward for QI.

      24            THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Deputy Chief?

      25            THE WITNESS:  Steward, a steward.

.                                                                1344

       1   BY MR. POPE:

       2        Q    And QI stands for what?

       3        A    Quality Inn.

       4        Q    And this a building located where?

       5        A    By US 19.  That's where the children are

       6   located.

       7        Q    Okay.  What children?

       8        A    The child of the CO members.

       9        Q    Of the --

      10        A    Of the staff.

      11        Q    Okay, of the Church of Scientology?

      12        A    Uh-huh.

      13        Q    What does the Deputy Chief Steward do?

      14        A    Feed and serve the crew and the children at

      15   the Quality Inn.

      16        Q    Okay.  Now in connection with what do, you

      17   have to travel between there and the Bank of

      18   Clearwater Building?

      19        A    Yes.

      20        Q    Why do you do that?

      21        A    To transport food.

      22        Q    All right.  Now, you pick it up there?

      23        A    I pick it up at the Clearwater Bank

      24   Building, yes.

      25        Q    Okay.  Now, I want to call your attention to

.                                                                1345

       1   the date of December 4, 2000, late morning.  Where

       2   were you at that time?

       3        A    Inside the Clearwater Bank Building.

       4        Q    Did it come to your attention during that

       5   time that there was some sort of commotion outside

       6   relative to a camera?

       7        A    Yes.

       8        Q    And what did you -- what did you do -- what

       9   observations did you make?

      10        A    Well, I was about to go out the door where

      11   the loading dock, so it's called is, and peeked out

      12   the door and I saw there was --

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I'm going to

      14       object at this point.  This is not rebuttal.

      15       They had an opportunity to present their case

      16       in chief and to present the testimony of

      17       anyone who claimed to have been inhibited by

      18       the activities on the fourth and failed to do

      19       so and they're now attempting to patch that

      20       up.

      21            This is not in rebuttal in any new

      22        matter raised on any defensive case and that

      23        is the sole purpose of rebuttal evidence.

      24            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      25            MR. HOWIE:  I join in that, Your Honor.

.                                                                1346

       1       The issue of the whether anyone was inhibited

       2       from entering or exiting the building was an

       3       essential element and allegation in this case

       4       and nothing was presented in support of that

       5       and this comes too late.

       6            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, Mr. Minton flatly

       7       testified that he had not interfered at all

       8       in ingress or egress at that doorway when

       9       they were having this little camera set to

      10       and this is in rebuttal of that.

      11            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, there is a

      12       difference between preventing ingress and

      13       egress and inhibition which may be a

      14       subjective determination by person without

      15       the knowledge of another person in the area.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, if I may

      17       briefly go on the procedural point which

      18       underlies the objection, the problem is not

      19       that is or it is not resolved by the fact

      20       that it deals with the same subject matter.

      21       The purpose of rebuttal is to address new

      22       matters which were raised on the defense case

      23       which were not raised and could not have been

      24       anticipated in the initial case in chief.

      25            What we have here is again, this woman

.                                                                1347

       1        working for Scientology in the C-Org for the

       2        last hundred years or however long.  She was

       3        available as a witness in the case in chief.

       4            If this is relevant now it was relevant

       5        then.  This is an attempt to plug a hole in

       6        the case in chief.  This is not rebuttal.

       7            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

       8            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, if I didn't prove

       9       it, why did they get up and so adamantly

      10       insist that they not done this.  I mean

      11       they're the ones that got up and testified

      12       that, oh, we didn't interfere at all with

      13       anyone going in or out of that building.

      14            THE COURT:  Gentlemen, thank you very

      15       much.  Mr. Pope, proceed.

      16   BY MR. POPE:

      17        Q    Thank you.  I believe you indicated you

      18   looked out?

      19        A    Yes.

      20        Q    What did you see?

      21        A    I saw a group of people and I saw Mr. Minton

      22   standing on the ladder taking photographs of the

      23   camera we have on the corner of the building.

      24        Q    Now, how is that you were able to recognize

      25   Mr. Minton?

.                                                                1348

       1        A    He has been pointed out to me before.

       2        Q    Now, at the time you did this what knowledge

       3   did you have of the existence of a court injunction

       4   relative to Mr. Minton and his folks and the Church of

       5   Scientology?

       6        A    Because the staff in general has been

       7   informed about that.

       8        Q    What did you know about it?

       9        A    That we have to stay away ten feet from

      10   them.

      11        Q    All right.  And what did you do then when

      12   you saw Mr. Minton and his people out under that

      13   camera?

      14        A    I went back inside.

      15        Q    Why?

      16        A    Because they were too close to me.  I

      17   couldn't go out.

      18        Q    Let me show you what has been marked as

      19   Plaintiff's Exhibit Seven which I believe you have up

      20   there, Your Honor, which is this photograph.  Can you

      21   tell us what is Plaintiff Exhibit Seven?

      22        A    Well, that door there is the door I go in

      23   every day, three times a day.

      24            THE COURT:  Hold on just a second.

      25             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

.                                                                1349

       1        place.)

       2            Okay, let's proceed.

       3            MR. POPE:  I have no further questions,

       4       Your Honor.

       5            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's do this.

       6       Mr. Merrett.

       7                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    Ma'am, when you looked out -- is it the

      10   double doors that you looked out?

      11        A    Yeah.

      12        Q    Okay.  You looked out the double doors,

      13   correct?

      14        A    Yes, the purpose of going out.

      15        Q    And when you looked out the double door

      16   Mr. Minton was already on top of the ladder, correct?

      17        A    Not on the top of it.  He was standing half

      18   way down.

      19        Q    Did he move up or down the ladder while you

      20   were looking?

      21        A    No.

      22        Q    He was stopped half way up the ladder?

      23        A    Uh-huh.

      24        Q    What was he doing?

      25        A    Taking photographs.

.                                                                1350

       1        Q    So he took the photographs from half way up

       2   the ladder?

       3        A    Uh-huh.

       4        Q    What else did you see?

       5        A    I saw you.

       6        Q    Okay.  What was I wearing?

       7        A    A hat; that's what I remember.

       8        Q    Okay.  If all I was wearing was a hat that

       9   must have made quite an impression.  Do you remember

      10   anything else I was wearing?

      11        A    Some dark outfit.  I don't know what else.

      12        Q    A hat and dark outfit.  What else did you

      13   see?

      14        A    A policeman.

      15        Q    Okay.  Hear anybody say anything during this

      16   time?

      17        A    No, there was general conversation, but I

      18   wasn't there long enough to hear what was said.

      19        Q    Okay.  Now, there's a phone box to the left

      20   of the double doors?

      21        A    Yeah.

      22        Q    Okay.  And were these doors open or closed

      23   when you approached them from the inside?

      24        A    Closed.

      25        Q    Okay.  Which door did you open?

.                                                                1351

       1        A    The one that's to the right.

       2        Q    This one?

       3        A    Yeah.

       4        Q    Okay.  How far did you open it?

       5        A    All the way.

       6        Q    Okay.  If you're looking down from the roof,

       7   if this was the roof line, how far back does the

       8   door -- if this door -- does it open 90 degrees or

       9   180 degrees?  How far did you open it?

      10        A    Almost all the way.  I don't know.

      11        Q    Well, is all the way 90 degree?  Does it

      12   stick our across the sidewalk or is all the way folded

      13   back against the wall?

      14        A    No, not folded.  90 degrees, yes.

      15        Q    Okay, so you opened it about to there?

      16        A    Uh-huh.

      17        Q    Did you open the other door at all, this

      18   door?

      19        A    No.  That one is permanently locked more or

      20   less.

      21        Q    Okay.  All right.  And how wide is this

      22   door, the one that opened?

      23        A    Two-and-half feet maybe.

      24        Q    Did you step out of the doorway when you

      25   opened the door or did you remain inside the building?

.                                                                1352

       1        A    Um, a foot or two.  I don't remember

       2   exactly.

       3        Q    So you stepped one to two feet out of the

       4   door, correct?

       5        A    Yeah.

       6        Q    Okay.  Tell the court, if you would, the

       7   words that you used to announce your presence?

       8        A    What do you mean by that?

       9        Q    How did you tell Mr. Minton and the other

      10   people there that you were in the doorway and you

      11   needed to come out?

      12        A    I did not tell them.

      13        Q    Okay.  Of course having stepped only a foot

      14   or two out -- oh, is there any kind of a physical mark

      15   on your face that tells people you're a Scientologist?

      16   Is there?

      17        A    No, not as far as I know.

      18        Q    Okay.  You stepped a foot or two out along

      19   the door that extended two-and-a-half feet and you

      20   didn't say anything, correct?

      21        A    Right.

      22        Q    Okay.  And then you did what; you went back

      23   in and closed the door?

      24        A    Yeah.

      25        Q    Okay.  Now, your testimony is -- well, when

.                                                                1353

       1   did you first discuss this with anybody?

       2        A    Yesterday.

       3        Q    And who did you talk to, Mr. Shaw first?

       4        A    The lawyers.

       5        Q    Okay.  Which lawyers?

       6        A    Wally and Mrs. Kobrin.

       7            THE COURT:  Who?  I'm sorry, I missed

       8       the first name.

       9            THE WITNESS:  Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin.

      10            THE COURT:  And this was yesterday,

      11       Sunday?

      12            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.  Yes?

      14            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      15            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you were

      16       looking -- when this view that you had here

      17       where that telephone is?

      18            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      19            THE COURT:  That's looking -- you're

      20       inside the building looking out?

      21            MR. MERRETT:  No, sir, that would be on

      22       the outside.

      23            THE WITNESS:  That's on the outside.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  That's the telephone

      25       there?

.                                                                1354

       1            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  Okay.

       3   BY MR. MERRETT:

       4        Q    So sometime yesterday afternoon somebody

       5   came and asked you if you had been inside the building

       6   on December 4?

       7        A    What do you mean by that?  Asked me if I had

       8   been inside the building?

       9        Q    Yes.  Was that the first time that you had

      10   been asked about what had happened on December 4?

      11        A    Yeah.

      12        Q    Okay.  What else happened on December 4?

      13        A    I don't know.  Particularly, I don't know

      14   what you mean by that.  The specific thing they're

      15   discussing here is this incident, so that's what I'm

      16   talking about.

      17        Q    Right.  I understand that.  Tell me what

      18   else happened that day?

      19        A    Well, before I came there I parked my car

      20   down the road.

      21        Q    Where did you park you car?

      22        A    What?

      23        Q    Where did you park you car?

      24        A    Further down, it's some 10, 15, 20 feet

      25   down.

.                                                                1355

       1        Q    Okay.  What was it you were driving that

       2   day?

       3        A    A van, white van.

       4        Q    The white van that you usually drive?

       5        A    Yeah.

       6        Q    So you parked the white van down here

       7   somewhere, right?

       8        A    Uh-huh.

       9        Q    And how many meals were you picking up?

      10        A    Three.

      11        Q    Meals for three people?

      12        A    No, three meals per day.

      13        Q    For how many people were you picking up

      14   meals at that point?

      15        A    Approximately 200 people.

      16        Q    Okay.

      17            THE COURT:  You talking about 200 meals?

      18            THE WITNESS:  200 people, yeah.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.

      20   BY MR. MERRETT:

      21        Q    December 4 was a Wednesday, right?

      22        A    No, it was a Monday.

      23        Q    It was a Monday, okay.  What time did you

      24   arrive at the Clearwater Bank Building on Monday?

      25        A    About 11:30.

.                                                                1356

       1        Q    Okay.  And what did you do when you first

       2   got there?

       3        A    I went in the building in the side door.

       4        Q    Which side door?

       5        A    The one that goes directly into the building

       6   near the dining room.

       7        Q    So you entered through the room, the door

       8   down here?

       9        A    Uh-huh.

      10        Q    And that was because that door was closer to

      11   your van, right?

      12        A    Yeah.

      13        Q    Ordinarily you park your van by the double

      14   doors and you come and go through the double doors?

      15        A    Uh-huh.

      16        Q    Okay.  So, the closest way for you to get

      17   back in the van would have been through the door down

      18   here, right?

      19        A    Yeah.

      20            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  I don't have

      21       anything further.

      22            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie?

      23                     CROSS-EXAMINATION

      24   BY MR. HOWIE:

      25        Q    May it please The Court, ma'am, you said

.                                                                1357

       1   that you first discussed this with the attorneys

       2   Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin just yesterday for the first

       3   time, correct?

       4        A    Yeah.

       5        Q    Have you had an opportunity to -- did you

       6   discuss it with them at all at any previous time?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    Okay.  Did you have an opportunity to see

       9   the videotape of this incident?

      10        A    Yes.

      11        Q    To the best of your knowledge do you appear

      12   anywhere on that video?

      13        A    No.

      14            THE COURT:  When did you see the video?

      15            THE WITNESS:  Yesterday.

      16            THE COURT:  Yesterday, okay.  How may

      17       times did you look at it?

      18            THE WITNESS:  One.

      19            THE COURT:  Okay.

      20   BY MR. HOWIE:

      21        Q    You never saw the video before yesterday?

      22        A    No.

      23        Q    Now, you said that you saw Mr. Minton up on

      24   the ladder taking pictures?

      25        A    Uh-huh.

.                                                                1358

       1        Q    How do you know he was taking pictures?

       2        A    Well, he was directing a camera to us, our

       3   camera, so I assumed he was taking pictures.

       4        Q    And he had the camera up to his face?

       5        A    Yeah.

       6        Q    And was he looking in the direction of the

       7   camera mounted on the wall?

       8        A    Yeah.

       9        Q    And this is the altitude and position you

      10   saw him in when you say you stepped out a foot or two

      11   and you looked and you saw him?

      12        A    Uh-huh.  Yes.

      13        Q    And how long did you stand there an watch

      14   him?

      15        A    One to two seconds.

      16        Q    During that one to two seconds all you saw

      17   him do was have the camera to his face as he took

      18   pictures or appeared to take pictures of the camera on

      19   the wall?

      20        A    Yes.

      21        Q    And so during that entire time he never

      22   acknowledged your presence, did he?

      23        A    No.

      24        Q    And as far as you know he never saw you, did

      25   he?

.                                                                1359

       1        A    Probably not.

       2        Q    Was there a bread delivery coming in and out

       3   of that door at the time or coming into that door at

       4   the time?

       5        A    No.

       6        Q    You didn't see a bread delivery?

       7        A    No.

       8        Q    Did you see anybody with handcarts and large

       9   plastic cartons bringing items in through the door or

      10   out the door during this time?

      11        A    Not that I recall.  I didn't see motion

      12   through the doors at the time certainly.

      13        Q    What is immediately inside that double door?

      14   What is the room back there?  Can you describe what it

      15   is?

      16        A    It's like a loading dock.  It has crates and

      17   storage space.

      18        Q    So, it's basically a storage room just

      19   inside these double doors, correct?

      20        A    Uh-huh.

      21        Q    Now what was your function in that

      22   particular room?  What were you doing?

      23        A    Well, I use that room to load and unload

      24   things into the van and out of the van.

      25            THE COURT:  You had to do this all by

.                                                                1360

       1       yourself?

       2            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

       3            THE COURT:  200 meals you had you pick

       4       up and put in that van?

       5            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

       6            THE COURT:  You don't get any help from

       7       anybody?

       8            THE WITNESS:  Yes, if I need to.

       9            THE COURT:  What?

      10            THE WITNESS:  If I need to, sir.

      11            THE COURT:  Do you usually get help or

      12       do you ask for help or --

      13            THE WITNESS:  Sometimes.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.

      15   BY MR. HOWIE:

      16        Q    Now, in taking 200 meals by yourself, were

      17   you using this door to take the 200 meals out?

      18        A    Yes.

      19        Q    How many trips do you have to take out of

      20   that door in order to put 200 meals in your van?

      21        A    About three, sometimes four trips.

      22        Q    And what do you use in order to take these

      23   meals outside that door to your van?

      24        A    I use handcarts with wheels.

      25        Q    Do you load up the handcarts yourself?

.                                                                1361

       1        A    Yes.

       2        Q    Were you in the process of taking a load on

       3   a handcart out at the time you came to the doors as

       4   you described?

       5        A    No, I was on my way out to get the van to

       6   move it up so I could unload the van.

       7        Q    And the van was parked further south on

       8   Waterson?

       9        A    Uh-huh.

      10        Q    And you use this door to go to the van?

      11        A    Yeah.

      12        Q    You say you didn't see a bread delivery.  Do

      13   you have any responsibility to accept deliveries at

      14   this particular building?

      15        A    No.

      16        Q    You say you discussed this for the first

      17   time yesterday with the lawyers.  Prior to yesterday

      18   who did you discuss it with?

      19        A    The two lawyers, Mr. Pope and Mrs. Kobrin.

      20        Q    No, I mean before yesterday who did you

      21   discuss it with?

      22        A    Nobody.

      23        Q    You hadn't told anybody about this prior to

      24   yesterday?

      25        A    No.

.                                                                1362

       1            THE COURT:  How did they find you

       2       yesterday?  Where were you yesterday when you

       3       first knew about this?

       4            THE WITNESS:  I was at the Quality Inn.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you knew nothing

       6       about these court proceedings then.

       7            THE WITNESS:  No.

       8            THE COURT:  And yesterday at the Quality

       9       Inn at about what time of the day was the

      10       first time somebody contacted you regarding

      11       this incident.

      12            THE WITNESS:  Yesterday.

      13            THE COURT:  Uh-huh, which has 24 hours;

      14       which hour?

      15            THE WITNESS:  Um, let's see.  I knew I

      16       had to be here.  I knew I had to see them.  I

      17       didn't know specifically for what.

      18            THE COURT:  Who told you you had to see

      19       them?

      20            THE WITNESS:  Someone from OSA.  I can't

      21       remember who it was.

      22            THE COURT:  When did they tell you that

      23       you had to see them?

      24            THE WITNESS:  Yesterday morning.

      25            THE COURT:  Yesterday morning?

.                                                                1363

       1            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  What time; early

       3       morning, mid morning, close to noon?

       4            THE WITNESS:  Close to noon.

       5            THE COURT:  How do you know that?  What

       6       are you referencing it to?

       7            THE WITNESS:  Joyce came and told me.

       8            THE COURT:  Who is Joyce?

       9            THE WITNESS:  Sitting over there.

      10            THE COURT:  What's she wearing?  Tell me

      11       was she's wearing?

      12            THE WITNESS:  She's wearing a blue

      13       jacket and a turquoise tie.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay, and she came and told

      15       you that the lawyers were going to be seeing

      16       you?

      17            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      18            THE COURT:  She tell you about what?

      19            THE WITNESS:  She told me briefly that

      20       it was about something having to do with a

      21       violation of this ten feet rule.

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.  What's the ten foot

      23       rule?

      24            THE WITNESS:  That we can't be within

      25       ten feet of each other.

.                                                                1364

       1            THE COURT:  You and you say each other?

       2            THE WITNESS:  Meaning the other group.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  And how

       4       did Joyce know that you would have any

       5       knowledge whatsoever about a camera and a

       6       ladder?

       7            THE WITNESS:  I don't know.

       8            THE COURT:  You don't have a clue?

       9            THE WITNESS:  The only thing I can think

      10       of is Antonio told who was out there.

      11            THE COURT:  Is Antonio here today?

      12            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I seen him.

      13            THE COURT:  Where is he?  Take a look

      14       around the courtroom.

      15            THE WITNESS:  He's over there.

      16            THE COURT:  Where is over there?

      17            THE WITNESS:  There.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.  You're pointing to --

      19       describe what he's wearing.

      20            THE WITNESS:  He has a brown suit and a

      21       dark brown shirt.

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.  And he's the one

      23       sitting in front of the man back there with

      24       the blue shirt?

      25            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

.                                                                1365

       1            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  And tell

       2       me about Antonio.  What is it he said to you.

       3            THE WITNESS:  When?

       4            THE COURT:  Well, you're trying to tell

       5       me that the first you knew about a camera and

       6       a ladder was something to do with Antonio?

       7            THE WITNESS:  Well, I know about this

       8       incident that it happened because Antonio was

       9       right in front of me when I stepped out of

      10       the building so I knew he was there.

      11            THE COURT:  You saw Antonio there?

      12            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      13            THE COURT:  What was Antonio doing

      14       there?

      15            THE WITNESS:  Filming.

      16            THE COURT:  Filming?

      17            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      18            THE COURT:  Did you speak to Antonio on

      19       that day?

      20            THE WITNESS:  Not that I recall.

      21            THE COURT:  Okay.  Did Antonio tell you

      22       to get back in the building?

      23            THE WITNESS:  Not that I recall.

      24            THE COURT:  Did Antonio tell you there

      25       was any danger around?

.                                                                1366

       1            THE WITNESS:  No.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  Did you talk to

       3       Antonio after that day about anything?

       4            THE WITNESS:  No.

       5            THE COURT:  Okay.  The only thing -- had

       6       you seen Antonio since that day?

       7            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I seen him

       8       regularly.  He patrols.  He's outside that

       9       building.

      10            THE COURT:  That's sort of his beat, so

      11       to speak?

      12            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

      13            THE COURT:  Okay.  And you didn't speak

      14       to him about the ladder or the camera or

      15       anything other than that day you saw him

      16       outside there filming?

      17            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  All

      19       right.  Then Joyce told you that the lawyers

      20       were going to come see you and she didn't

      21       really tell you much about why they were

      22       coming?

      23            THE WITNESS:  Right.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  So when did they come

      25       see you?  What time?

.                                                                1367

       1            THE WITNESS:  Last night.

       2            THE COURT:  Okay.  Now, when you say

       3       night, was it dark outside?

       4             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

       5        place.)

       6            Are you okay?

       7            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

       8            THE COURT:  You're turning red.  You're

       9       turning real red here.  You're beginning to

      10       make me nervous.  I don't have any smelling

      11       salts so just calm down.  You're all right.

      12       Just answer my questions, okay.  You okay?

      13       You want a break?

      14            THE WITNESS:  No.

      15            THE COURT:  All right.

      16            THE WITNESS:  I'm just trying to

      17       remember when exactly.

      18            THE COURT:  Okay.  Take your time.  Do

      19       you know, was it dark outside when they came

      20       to see you?

      21            THE WITNESS:  I saw Wally first in the

      22       late afternoon and then I saw Helena late at

      23       that night.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  So you saw -- I take

      25       it id you saw Helena at night, you had to

.                                                                1368

       1       have seen Mr. Pope in the daytime maybe?

       2            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, late afternoon,

       3       yeah.

       4            THE COURT:  Okay.  And how long did your

       5       conversation with him last?

       6            THE WITNESS:  45 minutes, approximately.

       7            THE COURT:  Okay.  What did you talk

       8       about?

       9            THE WITNESS:  This -- what occurred that

      10       day.

      11            THE COURT:  Okay.  Then you saw Helena

      12       later?

      13            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

      14            THE COURT:  She came to see you or you

      15       went downtown to see her?

      16            THE WITNESS:  No, I was still in the

      17       building so I saw her.  I came up to see her

      18       in her office.

      19            THE COURT:  Is downtown Clearwater?

      20            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

      21            THE COURT:  In the hotel building, the

      22       big building?

      23            THE WITNESS:  No, in the Clearwater Bank

      24       Building.

      25            THE COURT:  All right.  Her office is in

.                                                                1369

       1       that building?

       2            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  And how long did you

       4       talk with her?

       5            THE WITNESS:  Half-an-hour.

       6            THE COURT:  All right.  That was the

       7       first time anybody contacted you regarding

       8       whether you were able to go out with those

       9       meals or not on that particular day?  In

      10       other words, that's the first time anybody at

      11       all talked to you about your not being able

      12       to go outside with the meals?

      13            THE WITNESS:  That was -- I don't

      14       understand the question.

      15            THE COURT:  Okay.  You're telling me

      16       that because these people had a ladder and

      17       they up on the ladder, okay?

      18            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

      19            THE COURT:  That you, because of that,

      20       could not go outside with those meals?

      21            THE WITNESS:  Right.

      22            THE COURT:  Okay.  When was the first

      23       time that you talked to anybody about that?

      24            THE WITNESS:  Yesterday.

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  And how

.                                                                1370

       1       long did you have to wait before you ventured

       2       outside or you looked out again to try to get

       3       those meals to the children?

       4            THE WITNESS:  20 minutes, approximately.

       5            THE COURT:  So the meals for the

       6       children were at least 20 minutes late on

       7       that day?

       8            THE WITNESS:  I don't know that they

       9       were late.  I don't remember how late or if I

      10       was late.

      11            THE COURT:  But your timetable was

      12       interrupted?

      13            THE WITNESS:  Right.

      14            THE COURT:  Let me ask you this.  Were

      15       they hot meals?

      16            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      17            THE COURT:  Did you have some sort of

      18       means to keep them warm for that additional

      19       20 minutes?

      20            THE WITNESS:  Well, I have the food in

      21       hot boxes.

      22            THE COURT:  Put in hot boxes?

      23            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      24            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.

      25            THE WITNESS:  But there is a danger any

.                                                                1371

       1       time I add on it always --

       2            THE COURT:  Spoilage or something like

       3       that?

       4            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, it's a health

       5       hazard.

       6            THE COURT:  I understand. okay.  That's

       7       a good point.  All right.  You don't recall

       8       what those meals were that day, do you?

       9            THE WITNESS:  No.

      10            THE COURT:  It wasn't spaghetti?

      11            THE WITNESS:  No.

      12            THE COURT:  Hot dogs?

      13            THE WITNESS:  No, I don't remember.

      14            THE COURT:  Something the kids would

      15       like though, right?

      16            THE WITNESS:  I don't know.  Hopefully.

      17            THE COURT:  Okay.  Okay.  Do you

      18       remember what the dessert was?

      19            THE WITNESS:  No.

      20            THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  You say

      21       that Antonio Avila normally -- that's his

      22       area where he patrols.  When you saw him that

      23       day it was normal for him to be there?

      24            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  It's not normal for

      25       him to be right outside my door, as I call

.                                                                1372

       1       it, but he's normally farther down the

       2       street.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  You call that your

       4       door?

       5            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

       6            THE COURT:  All right.  Do you know

       7       Annie Getto?

       8            THE WITNESS:  No.

       9            THE COURT:  You don't know her at all?

      10            THE WITNESS:  No.

      11            THE COURT:  Name doesn't mean anything

      12       to you?

      13            THE WITNESS:  No.

      14            THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, gentlemen, I'll

      15       let you inquire.  Mr. Pope?

      16            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

      17       Honor.

      18            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, I'm still im the

      19       midst of my cross.

      20            THE COURT:  You may continue.  I'm

      21       sorry, sir.

      22   BY MR. HOWIE:

      23        Q    That's all right.  Ma'am, you say you

      24   recognized Mr. Minton while he was on the ladder?

      25        A    Uh-huh.

.                                                                1373

       1        Q    Did he have his back to you?

       2        A    Yeah.

       3        Q    So --

       4        A    But also he had his face -- I think he was

       5   talking to the gentleman right behind you there, so he

       6   was facing you now going little bit back and forth the

       7   one or two seconds I saw him.

       8        Q    You said that you waited 20 minutes before

       9   venturing out again.  How did you spend that 20

      10   minutes?

      11        A    Um, hanging around and figuring out

      12   something else I could do.

      13        Q    Didn't you make any inquiry of anybody else

      14   about whether the people outside were gone?

      15        A    I don't know who to inquiry to.  There is

      16   nobody to inquiry to.

      17            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.  I don't have any

      18       further questions.

      19            THE COURT:  Now, in light of the

      20       question that I asked, I have to give all

      21       attorneys a chance.  Mr. Pope, let me do

      22       this.  I'll come to from this direction.

      23       Mr. Merrett, sir?



.                                                                1374

       1                    RECROSS-EXAMINATION

       2   BY MR. MERRETT:

       3        Q    What was it that made you decide that 20

       4   minutes was long enough to wait?

       5        A    I don't know.  I just figured it would be

       6   over by that time because it seemed to be an involved

       7   discussion going on out there.

       8        Q    You didn't talk to anybody between the time

       9   that you say you opened that door and stuck your head

      10   out and 20 minutes later, did you?

      11        A    No.

      12        Q    Okay.  And when you opened that door Antonio

      13   Avila was standing directly outside?

      14        A    Somewhere.  I don't know exactly, but he was

      15   standing a little bit further down, I suppose.

      16        Q    Further down meaning what?

      17        A    Away from my sight.  If I go out the door he

      18   was a little bit to the right.

      19        Q    But he was within the opening of the door,

      20   right?

      21        A    No, I don't think so.  I think he was

      22   slightly further down.

      23        Q    Okay.  And he didn't say anything to you,

      24   right?

      25        A    Not that I recall.

.                                                                1375

       1        Q    Okay.

       2        A    If he said anything it would have been a

       3   comment because I was very quick.  I was just looking

       4   seeing what's going on and then I closed the door.

       5        Q    Now, you testified that you were already

       6   aware at that time of the ten foot rule, correct?

       7        A    Uh-huh.

       8        Q    You knew that that prohibited you from

       9   coming within ten feet of the people associated with

      10   the Trust, correct?

      11        A    Right.

      12        Q    And you would have been violating that order

      13   if you walked out that door, right?

      14        A    Right.

      15        Q    Okay.  But you wouldn't have been violating

      16   that order if you had walked out the door that you

      17   went in further south on Waterson Street, right?

      18        A    That's right.

      19        Q    Okay.

      20        A    But it wouldn't have made any difference

      21   because you was -- my intention of going out there was

      22   to drive the van up so I could do my job.

      23        Q    So, at that point you were not actually

      24   trying to move food, you were trying to drive the van,

      25   right?

.                                                                1376

       1        A    Yeah.

       2        Q    And the door closest to the van was a door

       3   down the block, not the door up here?

       4        A    Uh-huh.

       5        Q    Okay.  And the door that you had gone in is

       6   more than ten feet away from where Mr. Minton and I

       7   were, correct?

       8        A    Correct.

       9        Q    There was nothing to stop you from going to

      10   that door and looking up the street to determine

      11   whether or not the way was clear, correct?

      12        A    I suppose.

      13        Q    And you didn't do that, did you?

      14        A    No.

      15        Q    Now, you mentioned feeding the children.

      16   Those meals also go to people who are on the RPF,

      17   correct?

      18        A    Yeah.

      19        Q    That's the Rehabilitation Project Force,

      20   correct?

      21        A    Correct.

      22        Q    That's the disciplinary unit with the

      23   Church, correct?

      24        A    It's a rehabilitation project.

      25        Q    Right, which is where people who make ethics

.                                                                1377

       1   violations and they're working their way back into the

       2   good graces, correct?

       3        A    Correct.

       4        Q    Okay.  So you were also carrying food to the

       5   prison camp, right?

       6            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

       7       That's just the kind of cheap shot --

       8            THE COURT:  Okay.  I understand, and

       9       Mr. Merrett, please, now look --

      10            MR. MERRETT:  I'll lay the predicate,

      11       Your Honor.

      12            THE COURT:  Would you because we've got

      13       a new term here.  We've got -- this has got a

      14       new wrinkle.  You've just brought something

      15       else out.  What's this all about?

      16   BY MR. MERRETT:

      17        Q    People on RPF, the Rehabilitation Project

      18   Force, are not free to leave or come and go, correct?

      19            MR. POPE:  Objection --

      20   BY MR. MERRETT:

      21        Q    -- have to get permission.  Right?

      22            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.

      23       Totally outside the scope of anything you or

      24       I or Mr. Howie asked.  He wants to get into

      25       making a slam on the Scientologists'

.                                                                1378

       1       practices.  This doesn't have anything to do

       2       with the main point which was, you know, was

       3       the --

       4            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

       5            MR. POPE:  -- blocked or not.

       6            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, first I was

       7       convinced that we were taking these meals to

       8       some children out at the Quality inn and that

       9       got my attention as far as timing and food

      10       for children.

      11            Now, you're telling me this and the

      12        thing I'm concerned about is a timing issue

      13        or something else.  I don't know what this

      14        is about and criticality of the delay for

      15        this lady when she was trying to get out,

      16        that's all I'm trying to see is what is she

      17        was unduly delayed here which would have a

      18        bearing on your client's needs.  Okay, so

      19        let's proceed.

      20   BY MR. MERRETT:

      21        Q    The RPF is an assignment that people get

      22   when they've committed ethics violations, correct?

      23        A    Okay.

      24        Q    Okay.  And that involves wearing distinctive

      25   clothing, correct?

.                                                                1379

       1        A    No.

       2        Q    Okay.  That involves assignments to menial

       3   work, correct?

       4        A    Yeah.

       5        Q    Okay.  That involves having your movements

       6   and your affairs regulated by superiors within the

       7   hierarchy of the Church, correct?

       8        A    I don't know how to answer that.

       9        Q    You don't know how to answer that, okay.

      10   Your meals are determined by the Church, correct, what

      11   it is that you're going to eat?

      12        A    Yeah.

      13        Q    And the classic RPF meal is beans and rice,

      14   correct?

      15        A    No.

      16        Q    Okay.  You have to complete working for your

      17   ethics violations before you can return to whatever

      18   your normal staff assignment is, correct?

      19            MR. POPE:  Objection, Your Honor.  Delay

      20       is the issue as the Court pointed out.  He

      21       ought to get to delay and the number of

      22       people who were eating meals, not religious

      23       practices as a disciplinary --

      24            THE COURT:  That's what I'm interested

      25       in, Mr. Merrett.  As soon as you can get

.                                                                1380

       1       there I want to know where are these people

       2       or did she have to drive somewhere else

       3       before she got the meals to the children and

       4       all that's what I'm concerned about and

       5       whether these people in this RPF are on some

       6       sort of timetable or something else here.

       7       That's what I'm concerned about.

       8   BY MR. MERRETT:

       9        Q    Okay.  Let me ask you this.  You testified

      10   that what you were wanting to do at that moment when

      11   you opened the door and looked out and saw Mr. Minton

      12   and myself, you were wanting to get to your van which

      13   is a regular size van to move it to the door, correct?

      14        A    Right.

      15        Q    And before you could load and unload any of

      16   this food, you needed to move the van down here be

      17   this door, right?

      18        A    Right.

      19        Q    Please look at the judge and tell him what

      20   was parked in front of this door?

      21        A    There was nothing.

      22        Q    There was nothing there?

      23        A    No.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Thank you very much,

      25       ma'am.

.                                                                1381

       1            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, questions?

       2                    REDIRECT EXAMINATION

       3   BY MR. POPE:

       4        Q    Yes, sir.  Do you know the name of the tall

       5   young woman with the dark hair and the red jacket who

       6   came and brought you into the courtroom?

       7        A    No, I actually don't.

       8        Q    You don't know her name?

       9        A    No.

      10        Q    Okay.  Had you ever see her before today?

      11        A    Yeah, I've seen.  She's a but I don't know

      12   the name.

      13        Q    You don't know the name, all right.

      14            THE COURT:  For the record, her name is

      15       Annie Getto and that is why I asked her if

      16       she knew that name by any chance.  That's her

      17       name.  She goes by Annie Getto.

      18   BY MR. POPE:

      19        Q    Are all the of the people you're bringing

      20   food to located at the Quality Inn or are they spread

      21   out here and there?

      22        A    They are spread out here and there.

      23        Q    Okay.  Where are they besides being at the

      24   Quality Inn?

      25        A    I deliver food to the WB and --

.                                                                1382

       1            THE COURT:  The Wind Beach or whatever

       2       that is?  The Windbreaker?  Yeah, I know what

       3       you're talking about, but that's another

       4       motel by the Quality Inn?

       5   BY MR. POPE:

       6        Q    Any place else?

       7        A    Yeah, Hacienda.

       8        Q    Okay.

       9            THE COURT:  You go to all those places?

      10            THE WITNESS:  Uh-huh.

      11            THE COURT:  After you pick up the 200

      12       meals there?

      13            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that's where I go.

      14       I go that route.

      15            MR. POPE:  No further questions, Your

      16       Honor.

      17            THE COURT:  Okay.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I would move

      19       to strike her testimony.  We are in a

      20       criminal proceeding.  These issues are framed

      21       by court's order to show cause.  In

      22       paragraph --

      23            THE COURT:  Let's do this.  Let's get

      24       her off the stand and then we can deal with

      25       that.  Can we excuse her?

.                                                                1383

       1            MR. POPE:  As far as I'm concerned, Your

       2       Honor.

       3            THE COURT:  Okay.  Can we excuse her?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, you may want

       5       to talk to her after you review the video

       6       again, but she can be released for my part.

       7            THE COURT:  All right, I'll tell you

       8       what.  You can step down and wait outside.

       9       There is a chance we may call you back in a

      10       few minutes, ma'am.  So I'll let you off the

      11       stand at this time but just wait outside.

      12       There is a chance I'll be calling you back.

      13            THE WITNESS:  Okay.

      14            THE COURT:  All right.  Let's let her

      15       get down.  Okay, argument.

      16            MR. MERRETT:  Your Honor, I move to

      17       strike based on the fact that the order to

      18       show cause regarding the incident on

      19       December 4 charges that the violation of the

      20       injunction occurred because the bread

      21       delivery that was being received at that

      22       address was blocked.

      23            Additionally, I would move to strike it

      24        based on obvious purcurious content, since

      25        she has just sworn that the bread truck was

.                                                                1384

       1        nonexistent, having testified there was

       2        nothing in front of the door and that being

       3        of course the gravamen of the charges in the

       4        paragraph, but the principle reason is that

       5        this is criminal proceeding.

       6            The specific charge is interfering with

       7        that bread delivery and this is as I said, a

       8        post hoc attempt to patch up holes in the

       9        case in chief and obviously to do so by

      10        raising matters no raise on the order to

      11        show cause.

      12             (Whereupon, a pause in the proceedings took

      13        place.)

      14            MR. POPE:  Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  I'm going to get to you in

      16       just a second, sir.  I want to make sure I

      17       put down everything I need right now.

      18       Mr. Howie.

      19            MR. HOWIE:  I join in the motion to

      20       strike Your Honor.  This is improper rebuttal

      21       as we've said before, but in addition, the

      22       allegations are very clear.  They relate only

      23       to the bread delivery.  There is no

      24       allegation concerning this witness.  There

      25       was no new matter that was raised during the

.                                                                1385

       1       presentation of the defense in this case.

       2       This should be part of their case in chief

       3       and bears no relation whatsoever to the

       4       allegations in the motion or order to show

       5       cause.

       6            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope.

       7            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the exact

       8       language of Paragraph B on page four of the

       9       amended consolidated order to show cause says

      10       at the same time the Church's food service

      11       staff were receiving a bread delivery through

      12       and entrance that was a few feet away from

      13       where the security camera is located, period.

      14            In addition to Mr Minton and Mr. Merrett

      15        being in the way of the activity, several

      16        other LMT related individuals came out of

      17        the LMT property and stood around and --

      18             (Whereupon, court reporter tried to stop

      19        Mr. Pope from reading too fast.)

      20            THE COURT:  Hold it, Mr. Pope.  Slow

      21       down now.  Let's back up.

      22            MR. POPE:  Several other LMT related

      23       individuals came out of the LMT property and

      24       stood around, also blocking the area,

      25       standing less than ten feet from the Church

.                                                                1386

       1       staff and blocking their ingress and egress

       2       from the delivery entrance to the building.

       3       Then if goes on to name the individuals.

       4            MR. MERRETT:  All of whom have been

       5       excused by the court's grant a judgment of

       6       acquittal and none of them were identified of

       7       referred to by this witness who referred to

       8       only ton Mr. Minton and myself and of course

       9       made claim that she was not receiving the

      10       bread delivery from a nonexistent bread

      11       truck.

      12            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, close reading of

      13       Paragraph B would show that in fact

      14       Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett are not accused of

      15       standing within ten feet of the Church staff,

      16       but rather the named individuals, Grady Ward,

      17       Jesse Prince, Rod Keller, Heather Bennett and

      18       Frank Oliver accused of standing within ten

      19       feet of the staff member and they have been

      20       dismissed.

      21            MR. POPE:  Your Honor, the reason that

      22       this is in is because this --

      23            THE COURT:  Just a minute.  Hold on.

      24       Let me get the paragraph.  What paragraph is

      25       this?

.                                                                1387

       1            MR. POPE:  Paragraph 3B.

       2            THE COURT:  I've got.

       3            MR. POPE:  On page four.

       4            THE COURT:  3B.  All right.

       5            MR. POPE:  The reason that this witness

       6       has been called is that they, the defendants

       7       insisted in their positive testimony that

       8       they had done no blocking of ingress or

       9       egress to this building and he called this

      10       witness to rebut that.

      11            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, if I can just point

      12       out and I would remind the court again, this

      13       is a criminal proceeding, and having

      14       testified I never killed anyone doesn't

      15       subject a person for being convicted for some

      16       killing that is proved out a myth, certainly

      17       not from a phantom witness who has now denied

      18       that the bread truck which is at the center

      19       of the accusations against Mr. Minton and

      20       myself, was even there.

      21            I mean, you have two separate charges.

      22        One is that Mr. Minton and I were, by being

      23        nearby, blocking that door.  The other is

      24        that the rest of these people were blocking

      25        by being on the sidewalk.

.                                                                1388

       1            This witness was not part of the bread

       2        delivery and in fact obviously by her

       3        testimony denied that one ever took place.

       4        The only offense charged against Mr. Minton

       5        and myself in this paragraph is obstructing

       6        the bread delivery.

       7            Nothing that we did to her is

       8        cognisable, I mean if we had jumped down and

       9        beat her up, it's not cognizable in this

      10        proceeding because it's not charged conduct.

      11            MR. HOWIE:  In addition --

      12            THE COURT:  Gentlemen, gentlemen, thank

      13       you very much for these arguments.  I'm going

      14       to deny the motion to strike.

      15            I have voluminous notes on what the

      16        testimony has been in this matter and I'll

      17        certainly put this in the chain of

      18        credibility where it belongs.

      19            Let's proceed. you want to take a break?

      20        Let's take a break.  I see some tension

      21        showing on the faces.  Let's take about a

      22        ten minute break.

      23             (Thereupon, a short recess was taken, after

      24        which the proceedings continued.)

      25            THE COURT:  Mr. Pope, call the last

.                                                                1389

       1       witness.

       2            MR. POPE:  No further witnesses, Your

       3       Honor.

       4            THE COURT:  What?

       5            MR. POPE:  No further witnesses.

       6            THE COURT:  Now said you had three

       7       witnesses.  Okay.

       8            MR. POPE:  I decided I covered it with

       9       two.

      10            THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you.  All

      11       right.

      12            MR. MERRETT:  I wonder if we could get

      13       the name of the witness that I guess drove

      14       the bread truck away.  The witness that isn't

      15       here.

      16            THE COURT:  I don't know.  I'm out of

      17       that.  I'm not sure that --

      18            MR. MERRETT:  I guess not.  I wonder if

      19       in surrebuttal since we did raise a new

      20       matter if we might call Mr. Minton?

      21            THE COURT:  All right.  He can come

      22       become.  He's under oath.  Stay within the

      23       scope.

      24            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir, within the

      25       length of the bread truck.

.                                                                1390

       1            THE COURT:  I am concerned about one

       2       thing.  You think you're going to want that

       3       lady back?

       4            MR. MERRETT:  I think you might, Judge.

       5            THE COURT:  I'm going to wait and see

       6       what happens here.  Okay, but, all right.

       7       He's under oath.  I'll continue him under the

       8       oath this I place him under previously and

       9       we'll go that way.  Thank you.

      10                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      11   BY MR. MERRETT:

      12        Q    Mr. Minton, directing your attention back to

      13   December 4, the camera incident.

      14        A    Yes.

      15        Q    Let me ask you if you have seen the

      16   videotape that was entered in evidence covering that

      17   incident?

      18        A    I have.

      19        Q    And after you dismounted the ladder you see

      20   Mr. Prince and I believe Ms. Bennett begin to fold the

      21   ladder up?

      22        A    Yes.

      23        Q    Did you and I and the rest of the people who

      24   were there immediately quit the area at the point?

      25        A    We did.  We left.

.                                                                1391

       1        Q    Did we remain around after that?

       2        A    No.

       3        Q    Was the bread truck still there when we?

       4        A    I think so.

       5        Q    Okay.  How many times were you on the ladder

       6   facing north on Watterson Street?

       7        A    One time.

       8        Q    Was that a single continuous incident?

       9        A    It was.

      10        Q    So when Ms. Wennberg testified that she saw

      11   you with her back to her, that can only have been the

      12   single incident displayed on the video?

      13        A    Right.  The other time I was facing south.

      14            MR. MERRETT:  Okay.  Nothing further.

      15            THE COURT:  Mr. Howie.

      16                     DIRECT EXAMINATION

      17   BY MR. HOWIE:

      18        Q    May it please the court, Mr. Minton, this

      19   was the only time that you have been on the ladder at

      20   that location, correct?

      21        A    Certainly on this day and I don't recall

      22   ever having used the ladder outside before.

      23        Q    All right.  And you've seen the videotape in

      24   this case repeatedly, correct?

      25        A    Yes, I have.

.                                                                1392

       1        Q    Does that videotape depict all the times

       2   that you were on the ladder that day?

       3        A    Yes, absolutely.

       4        Q    And there was not time you were on the

       5   ladder that was not depicted in the video?

       6        A    That is correct.

       7            MR. HOWIE:  Thank you.  No further

       8       questions.  Mr.  Pope.

       9            MR. POPE:  No questions, Your Honor.

      10            THE COURT:  Thank you.  You may step

      11       down and have a seat back next to your

      12       attorney.

      13            MR. MERRETT:  Nothing further on

      14       surrebuttal, Your Honor.

      15            THE COURT:  Does anybody have any other

      16       witnesses?

      17            MR. POPE:  No.

      18            MR. MERRETT:  No.

      19            THE COURT:  Anybody?  We're through with

      20       all testimony and evidence; is that correct?

      21            MR. POPE:  We are.

      22            THE COURT:  Let's do this.  Then that

      23       being the case, closing arguments?

      24            MR. POPE:  Now?

      25            THE COURT:  No.  Thank you.  What I'd

.                                                                1393

       1       like to do is nine o'clock in the morning by

       2       all means.  Mr. Howie?

       3            MR. HOWIE:  Your Honor, two matters.  We

       4       would also be renewing our JOA motions

       5       tomorrow morning and would obviously need a

       6       little time to prepare that.

       7            THE COURT:  Okay.

       8            MR. HOWIE:  So the record is clear,

       9       we're not waiving them.

      10            MR. MERRETT:  If I may, Your Honor, I

      11       would renew mine.  I've been observing the

      12       court's note taking and the court's heard my

      13       argument which was probably more abusive than

      14       exhausting in terms of time the last time.

      15            If I have anything to add I should

      16        probably go out in the hall and shoot

      17        myself.

      18            THE COURT:  Here's what I'll do.  Look.

      19       So that my bailiff doesn't have to clean that

      20       up, let's go this way.  Tomorrow morning,

      21       okay.  Don't do any anything; everything.

      22       Tomorrow morning.  I understand you're

      23       reserving.

      24            MR. HOWIE:  I have one other problem,

      25       Your Honor.  I am supposed to be in front of

.                                                                1394

       1       Judge Baird in downtown Clearwater at

       2       nine o'clock in the morning.

       3            THE COURT:  How long is that going to

       4       last?

       5            MR. HOWIE:  Well, I'm going to try and

       6       do it by telephone.  I have opposing

       7       counsel's permission do that.  It may be a

       8       UMC calendar so I'm sort of concerned about

       9       timing.

      10            What I would like to do is have

      11        permission of the court to actually start

      12        saw about 9:30.

      13            MR. POPE:  That's fine with me.

      14            THE COURT:  You know what I'll do?  Wait

      15       a minute.  Gentlemen, look.  Believe me, my

      16       judicial assistant has enough to keep me busy

      17       from early tomorrow morning until you all get

      18       here so here's what I'm going to do.  I'll

      19       say ten o'clock and we'll play it loose.

      20       Just let us know and we'll work it from

      21       there, okay.

      22            Here's what I would like.  Mr. Merrett

      23        did bring up a point.  A safe rule of thumb

      24        is that normally the JOA arguments are about

      25        a quarter of the length that the attorney

.                                                                1395

       1        likes for his closing, so if that's the

       2        case, you know, I can be in real serious

       3        trouble here.  So what I would like to do is

       4        put a limit on you all as far as your

       5        closing arguments are concerned and 45

       6        minutes each max.

       7            MR. POPE:  God bless you, Your Honor.

       8            THE COURT:  I thank you.  I thank you.

       9       I'm trying to get this thing taken care of

      10       because I know you got to get to work.  You

      11       got to get back out there and give me the

      12       next set of show causes.

      13            I get the picture of what's going on

      14        here.  This is going to be a career thing

      15        for all of us.

      16            Seriously, let's get on with it and I'll

      17        put 45 on the closings and on the JOAs, max

      18        30 minutes apiece and let's tomorrow morning

      19        ten o'clock and everybody, have a good

      20        evening, please.

      21            MR. MERRETT:  Judge, just so you know,my

      22       JOA is going to be more like three minutes

      23       than 30 because I am serious. I did cover all

      24       of the law last time.

      25            THE COURT:  Okay.

.                                                                1396

       1            MR. MERRETT:  So whatever difference

       2       that makes.

       3            THE COURT:  I'll accept that, but I know

       4       better than to try to hold you to it.

       5            MR. MERRETT:  Yes, sir.

       6            THE COURT:  See you in the morning.

       7             (Thereupon, the trial was adjourned to

       8        reconvene at 10:00 A.M. on February 21, 2001.)

       9                      End of Volume XI