1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V
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24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25
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1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609
5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602
9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602
15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265
21 Tampa, Florida 33602
22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Ms. Lara Cartwright Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) 25
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1 I N D E X
2 Volume V
3 WITNESS PAGE
4 Called by the Plaintiff:
5 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 633
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DANDAR......... 672
7 RECROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG........ 751
8 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 764
9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 765
10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 766
11
12 EXHIBITS
13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 44..................... 643
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1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume V
12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the
13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral
14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the
15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes
16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil
17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before
18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional
19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at
21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference
22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 10, 2000.
23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by
24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector.
25
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1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were
2 had and taken:
3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness
4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly
5 sworn, continued to testify as follows:
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Mr. Young, before we broke, right before
9 we broke for lunch, I believe that we were talking
10 about ethics technology in Scientology, do you
11 recall?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I believe that you acknowledged the
14 fact that ethics technology is an important part of
15 Scientology, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, are you an expert on that?
18 A. I know a lot about it. I would be able to
19 testify to it.
20 Q. But I mean you would agree that an expert
21 should have the understanding ?? I mean an expert
22 on Scientology should have the understanding on
23 this aspect, on ethics technology, right?
24 A. Well, you yourself has pointed out this is
25 new ground as to what constitutes an expert in
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1 Scientology, so let's try it.
2 Q. Right. Well, you saw some of the learned
3 works that were written by the scholar ?? you know,
4 the scholarly works that were written, and all of
5 them, in addressing whether or not Scientology met
6 the definition ?? met the test, met the accepted
7 methodology of religion, all of them talked about,
8 among other things, the ethics technology in
9 Scientology, correct?
10 A. No. I didn't read those.
11 Q. Oh, so you didn't read them, so you don't
12 know whether those religious scholars addressed
13 that as part of determining, in each case, in
14 determining that Scientology met the definition of
15 religion?
16 A. I responded I hadn't read the material you
17 gave me, so you were describing it to me. I can't
18 speak to those.
19 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you a question.
20 How does the aberrative personality treat actions
21 done by another to him?
22 A. There is various ways that it could occur.
23 Do you want to ?? this is going to be a fairly long
24 answer. How do you want it?
25 Q. Well, isn't there actually a very precise
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1 short answer?
2 A. Well, there is the phenomenon called
3 overts and withholds in which Hubbard says that a
4 person has got overts on another ?? you know,
5 Person A has overts, which are harmful acts
6 committed on Person B, and if Person B does
7 something, then Person A will start to natter or ??
8 which is his word for complain about Person B.
9 That's one way to describe it.
10 Q. Well, isn't the answer ?? I mean isn't the
11 answer set forth ?? oh, you know what On Human
12 Behavior is, don't you?
13 A. Yes, I've read it.
14 Q. And you know what PAB 13 is, don't you?
15 A. Not by the number.
16 Q. Well, what is PAB, what's that stand for?
17 A. Professional auditor's bulletin.
18 Q. All right. And the fact of the matter is
19 there is a very precise technology that is set
20 forth by Mr. Hubbard, correct, in the bulletins?
21 A. About what?
22 Q. About ethics.
23 A. There is dozens, perhaps scores of
24 policies on ethics.
25 Q. Right. And the answer to the question
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1 that I posed is very precise, it is everything the
2 preclear and others did to the aberrative person
3 was, A, very important, B, very bad, C, irremedial,
4 that's the answer, isn't it?
5 A. That's the answer in that one. There is
6 other answers ??
7 Q. But that's the answer to the question in
8 the Scientology ethics technology?
9 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting
10 his answer.
11 Q. Correct? Correct?
12 A. No. There is other answers to that
13 question that can be found in the materials to how
14 an aberrated person responds to what ?? you know,
15 there is also the criminal mind HCOB, which is a
16 part of ethics ??
17 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Mr. Moxon, do you
18 want to say something?
19 MR. DANDAR: Robert?
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 MR. DANDAR: Please don't smile at the
22 witness when he's testifying, Mr. Moxon.
23 MR. MOXON: I didn't smile at the
24 witness.
25 THE WITNESS: He's just making ??
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1 Q. By the way, maybe you didn't understand
2 my question because the question was how does the
3 aberrative, not aberrative, the aberrative
4 personality treat actions done by another to him?
5 A. As I responded, there is various ways that
6 that could be done through the criminal ??
7 Q. All right. So you understood my question
8 then?
9 A. Okay.
10 MR. DANDAR: Object to your interrupting
11 him.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I interrupted him
13 because I wanted to make ??
14 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike, move to the
15 question.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, if you'll be quiet.
17 Q. I just wanted to make it clear that it
18 didn't make any difference to you whether it was
19 aberrated or aberrative, is that right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. Well, what offenses compose the
22 charge of failure to uphold or set an example of
23 high ethical standards?
24 A. That could be done usually within a staff
25 position. Let's say, for example, you are a senior
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1 over a person and you let that person come in late,
2 you let the person ?? you don't care if the person
3 files reports, you let the person be slovenly in
4 their appearance and you let them just be
5 disgraceful in their post, you are not maintaining
6 ethics in the area.
7 Q. But there is a very precise answer to that
8 question set forth in HCO PL3, part of ethics and
9 executives, correct?
10 A. There might be a specific reply to ?? a
11 specific point in that. I don't question that.
12 There is no problem on that. No Scientologist is
13 ever spot checked in that way.
14 Q. Now, the Sea Org has always been part of
15 the corporate structure from day one in
16 Scientology, hasn't it?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Sea Org members today ?? every Sea Org
19 member today is in churches that are part of the
20 corporate structure of Scientology, correct?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So that you don't even acknowledge that
23 Sea Org members are part of Scientology churches
24 and organizations?
25 A. That wasn't my answer.
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1 Q. Well, do you agree that every Sea Org
2 member is part of, a member of, in a Sea Org ?? I
3 mean a Church of Scientology corporation?
4 A. No.
5 Q. In a Church of Scientology church?
6 A. Not as staff, no.
7 Q. Now, you're familiar with the basic issues
8 of the Sea Organization?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. The Flag Orders?
11 A. I've read many of them.
12 Q. Well, that's what they are, right, they're
13 the Flag Orders?
14 A. Well, there is also other issues. There
15 is Flag Bureau Orders and there is Ship Orders and
16 there is other forms of orders that make up the
17 basic policies for Sea Organization personnel.
18 Q. And the most basic Flag Order is Flag
19 Order 1, is that right?
20 A. It was the first one, in that sense of
21 basic.
22 Q. And that discusses the formation of the
23 Sea Org, right?
24 A. It may. I don't remember just name and
25 title of the first one.
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1 Q. Well, did you read the first one?
2 A. I've read it.
3 Q. Well, do you remember that in Flag Order
4 Number 1, that it set forth and established the Sea
5 Organization as part of the Church of Scientology
6 California?
7 A. If you want to show me so I can ??
8 Q. I'm just asking if you recall that?
9 A. I would want to see the issue to see
10 whether or not that's an issue that actually got
11 changed.
12 Q. Just answer my question.
13 A. No, I don't recall that.
14 Q. That's the answer to my question. So you
15 don't recall it, is that right?
16 A. No, I don't recall that.
17 Q. Let me show ?? well, how would you know if
18 the issue has been changed?
19 A. Because there ?? when Flag Orders were
20 issued, they were usually broadly issued to a lot
21 of personnel and there are issues that you can find
22 that were issued, say, in 1965 that are originally
23 off the mimeograph machine in 1965 as opposed to
24 reprinted, say, in 1995.
25 Q. I was under the impression that Flag Order
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1 Number 1 was in 1967?
2 A. You just wanted to ask me ?? you asked me
3 about a span of time and my point was going to be
4 you would go back and find the original one with
5 the original staples and you make a comparison
6 against the ones that came off the mimeograph
7 machine to see ??
8 Q. All right. Well, let me ?? I'm sorry to
9 interrupt. Go ahead.
10 A. ?? to see whether or not there was changes
11 to one that got reprinted.
12 Q. And my question to you is you have sat
13 here for his direct and yesterday professing to be
14 some sort of an expert. Surely you know when the
15 first ?? when Flag Order Number 1 was?
16 A. I wasn't ??
17 Q. What year?
18 A. My point was saying '65, '95. I could
19 have said '55. I could have said '75. My point
20 was a span of time, not naming a year for an issue.
21 I just pulled a year out of the thin air to give
22 you a span of time of comparing something from,
23 say, 30 years ago, 40 years ago.
24 Q. It doesn't mean ?? it's not important to
25 you whether you are right or wrong when you espouse
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1 these things?
2 A. I didn't say ??
3 MR. DANDAR: Objection. That's
4 argumentative.
5 Q. Go ahead.
6 A. I did not ?? I don't know what you are
7 responding to, that I was espousing something,
8 other than the point of answering your question how
9 would I know if something was changed. I would
10 find the original issue, even if it was 30 years
11 ago, 40 years ago, whatever came off the mimeograph
12 machine, people collect these, and then you compare
13 it against today's and see if somebody changed it.
14 Q. Okay. And I'm asking you as you sit here
15 today do you recall when the Sea Org was
16 established, what year do you recall?
17 A. Formally, I believe it was 1966 or '67.
18 Q. Not '65, right?
19 A. I don't know exactly when they wanted to
20 call the exact date because he actually had it
21 operational and then he finally named it as such.
22 Q. And you remember ??
23 A. And then it had an official birthday.
24 Q. ?? that its official birthday was the
25 issuance of Flag Order Number 1?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that was issued by Mr. Hubbard
3 himself, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 44 was marked for
6 identification.)
7 Q. Let me show you what's Exhibit 44 and ask
8 you if you remember ?? if you recognize this to be
9 Flag Order Number 1?
10 A. This is a reissue.
11 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me?
12 MR. WEINBERG: No.
13 A. This is a reissue of it.
14 Q. And you know that because of what?
15 A. Well, first of all, there is a serious
16 typo on the type ?? on the top which would have
17 never have gotten off the ship, which it says SSEA
18 Organization. Secondly, this is ?? you can look ??
19 comparing to back what was being issued on Flag,
20 you could look at the originals and you can spot
21 the difference between this and this type of
22 typeface. This was done what looks like on a
23 carbon ribbon typewriter. It's nice and clear.
24 The font is clean. Everything is really nice.
25 It's a modern typewriter. It wasn't what was
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1 coming off the Flagship or even policies in 1967,
2 and that's not hard to do. When you pull up 1967
3 issues ??
4 Q. Well, you weren't on the ship, were you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You were never on the ship, were you?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And so what, it's your suggestion that
9 somehow this has been falsified, is that your
10 suggestion?
11 A. I did not say that.
12 Q. Now, why would ??
13 A. I said it was reissued and retyped, that's
14 all.
15 Q. Okay. And what is the difference whether
16 it's reissued or not? Doesn't this indicate that
17 in 1967, through Flag Order 1, August 12th of 1967,
18 that the Sea Organization was officially
19 established under the corporate name of Hubbard
20 Exploration Company ?? Explorational Company
21 Limited, now owned by the Church of Scientology of
22 California, isn't that what this does?
23 MR. DANDAR: Objection. The document has
24 not been authenticated. The document speaks
25 for itself.
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1 A. You're asking me to verify this document.
2 I will not verify this document because I cannot
3 determine if it matches the original. That was my
4 point that I made in direct and I'll make the point
5 again with this. All I can say is what this ??
6 these five pages that you've handed to me, what
7 they say. I do not know if somebody else has
8 inserted changes in here, which is what is being
9 done with issues to make them fit the responses and
10 the needs in the courts.
11 Q. I see. So it would make a lot of sense to
12 reissue a document that was issued in ?? you do
13 admit that this was issued originally in 1967,
14 right?
15 A. I don't question that.
16 Q. Okay. So I'm going to reissue a document
17 for some purpose that I guess is wrongful and in
18 the document ??
19 A. I didn't say that.
20 Q. Well, I'm just reading between the lines
21 here, Mr. Young, because I'm having a hard time
22 understanding why every time somebody puts a
23 document ?? well, strike that.
24 A. If I may ??
25 Q. No. It's not a question. I'll withdraw
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1 it.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. So I've got a document here where you're
4 questioning whether it's reissued and it says as to
5 Flag appointments: Flag Supercargo, Ray Thacker;
6 Flag Chief Officer, Hank Laarhuis; Flag
7 Communicator, Jill Van Staden. Do you know these
8 people?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I mean you assume that these people really
11 existed in 1967, right?
12 A. If you're going to try to get me to
13 back?door the authentication of this ??
14 Q. Is that right?
15 A. Let me finish my answer. I'm not going to
16 authenticate that these people held these positions
17 according to this being an actual exact copy of
18 Flag Order Number 1. I can't say that.
19 Q. All right. But I guess you can't say that
20 anything in the Red Books is authentic either,
21 right?
22 A. The Red Books are also retypeset. The
23 originals were off mimeograph machines.
24 Q. Just answer my question. You, as you sit
25 here today ??
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1 A. I can't authenticate them.
2 Q. You have to go back to the original
3 document, right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But you haven't gone back to the original
6 document for all the Red Volumes to authenticate
7 it, have you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You haven't gone back to the original
10 document for all the Green Volumes to authenticate
11 them, have you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. You haven't gone back to the original
14 document for all the Flag Orders to authenticate
15 them, have you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. You haven't gone back to the original
18 document for the other hundreds of thousands of
19 pages of works that Mr. Hubbard published to
20 identify ?? to authenticate them, have you?
21 A. I have done some, yes, I have. I've done
22 quite a few. I did over a thousand.
23 Q. So that was in ?? you did that when you
24 were sitting in the hotel room that was provided to
25 you by Mr. Haney?
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1 A. No. I did it when I was working in Los
2 Angeles on the FACT Net case regarding copyright,
3 when we got copies of originals to compare them
4 against the exhibits that were presented by the
5 Scientology organization.
6 Q. Well, yeah, but you put in the, on direct,
7 you put in the Flag Order that we talked about
8 appointing Pat Broeker as a loyal officer, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But you couldn't authenticate that, could
11 you?
12 A. That was from a Scientology publication.
13 Q. But you couldn't authenticate it. You
14 didn't look at the original whatever it was to see
15 if that was the real thing, did you?
16 A. True, and that wasn't the point. The
17 point was the cancellation, not the issue.
18 Q. I see.
19 A. The very cancellation that you put into
20 evidence, or we put in.
21 Q. Now, you know that ?? you're familiar with
22 OEC Volume 0 in the Basics ?? you know that OEC
23 Volume 0 is the Basic Staff Hat, is that right?
24 A. No, it's not. It's the basic volumes.
25 The Basic Staff Hat was a different issue.
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1 Q. Well, some of the most fundamental
2 principles of administration in Scientology ?? it's
3 Volume 0?
4 A. It's the ??
5 Q. It's one of the most fundamental
6 principles of the administration of Scientology,
7 right?
8 A. It is the basic staff volume that's used
9 as a Basic Staff Hat.
10 Q. Every staff member is expected to know
11 those basic practices, right?
12 A. No.
13 Q. No? Okay. So it's part of the Green
14 Volumes, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'm actually holding one up. Do you want
17 to hold it up for the camera?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that the Green Volume that has ?? is
20 that Volume 0?
21 A. This is the new Volume 0.
22 Q. It's the one that's being used in 19
23 whatever, 1999, 2000, right?
24 A. Right. And now it's named as the Basic
25 Staff Hat. It was never done that before. Before
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1 it was just basically Volume 0.
2 Q. And you don't have any challenge to the
3 fact that the Church of Scientology is using a new
4 volume called Basic Staff Hat in the year 2000,
5 right?
6 A. No, just ??
7 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form of the
8 question.
9 Q. Let me show you an older volume. Is this
10 the one that you used to use?
11 A. Let's see what year this is. This is even
12 later. This is 1980. This one says Basic Staff
13 Volume. That was my point. And it ??
14 Q. You were there then, right?
15 A. Yeah. It's just ?? you know, as I said,
16 the difference between this one and that one is,
17 obviously, they have grown in size.
18 Q. All right. Okay. But the point is this
19 is where the fundamental principles of
20 administration are for Scientology churches, right?
21 A. Yeah, but just to clarify one point, that
22 is a separate course. Every staff member just
23 doesn't sit down and do all of Volume 0. They get
24 their own basics and later on they might do the
25 Volume 0 check sheet.
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1 Q. And you're ?? well, have you read Volume
2 0?
3 A. Yes, I did the Volume 0 course.
4 Q. So you are familiar with that, right, is
5 that ??
6 A. Yeah, back with the older volume.
7 Q. Okay. Well, what is the first and primary
8 goal of the Scientology organization?
9 A. It says in a couple places. In one place
10 he says make money, make more money, make more
11 money.
12 Q. Yeah, except are you familiar with the
13 place where he actually addresses that question?
14 A. And he also says in someplace else the
15 primary thing is to maintain friendly relations
16 with the environment.
17 Q. And do you remember in HCO PL, Policy
18 Letter, 26, quality counts, that that question is
19 asked and the answer is the first and primary goal
20 of an organization is delivering the foremost
21 technical quality that can be delivered in its
22 area, isn't that the answer that Mr. Hubbard gave
23 to that question?
24 A. On that policy letter, yes.
25 Q. Well, that's the one I asked you about.
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1 It's very precise, isn't it?
2 A. On that one it is, yes, but the point is
3 he says it in different ways in different places.
4 Q. The point is is that when I asked you the
5 question, you gave me the wrong answer according to
6 the technology?
7 A. No, I didn't. No, I didn't.
8 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative.
9 Move to strike.
10 A. No, I didn't. I'd be happy, if you ever
11 want to break and have me go find the volumes, I'll
12 show you how he says that in response to that
13 question.
14 Q. Well, how does he define the term
15 responsibility? You know that that term is defined
16 by Mr. Hubbard in the volumes, right?
17 A. Several times over in different places.
18 There is even an HCOBE on responsibility and there
19 is also PLs on responsibility, and there's also in
20 the tech volumes. It goes around and around and
21 around. It's just basically being responsible for
22 your action, taking ownership for your actions and
23 what you do.
24 Q. Well, in the HCO PL2, May 1985, doesn't he
25 define, precisely define responsibility to be the
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1 nonrecognition and denial of the right of
2 intervention between oneself and any being, idea,
3 matter, energy, space, time or form in the
4 assumption of full right of determination over it,
5 doesn't he do that?
6 A. He might.
7 Q. Well, but isn't this ??
8 A. You just read it to me, sir. I'm not
9 looking at what you're reading.
10 Q. Isn't this a precise technology,
11 Scientology?
12 A. He calls it that. I don't consider it
13 precise. He calls it that.
14 Q. But isn't that ?? it's an applied
15 religious belief, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And it is important for people that
18 practice Scientology, particularly members of the
19 staff as they are applying these Green Volumes, to
20 apply them as Mr. Hubbard wrote, correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, you have not received any
23 stipends or grants to do research on religion,
24 comparative religion, religious philosophy or the
25 religiosity of Scientology, have you?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You didn't develop any standards of
3 control when you were developing your opinion in
4 order ?? as to Scientology in order to determine a
5 potential error rate for others that would try to
6 analyze your opinions, did you? Do you understand
7 what I'm asking you?
8 A. Not really.
9 Q. Well, do you ??
10 A. We weren't talking statistics. We're
11 talking opinion.
12 Q. No, but when you ?? do you understand that
13 when one appears as a so?called expert, that in
14 order to test what you come in to give your
15 supposed learned opinion about, that there has to
16 be some methodology that others can test, do you
17 understand that?
18 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form;
19 argumentative.
20 Q. Do you understand that?
21 A. No, I don't understand the point you're
22 making since I'm not talking statistics or science.
23 Q. Well, you didn't develop a methodology
24 with regard to the opinions that you rendered with
25 regard to Scientology in the last two days, did
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1 you?
2 A. What do you mean methodology?
3 Q. Well, some sort of method by which others
4 can test and understand and try to analyze ??
5 MR. WEINBERG: You know, excuse me. Mike,
6 now, if you want to sit there and shake your
7 head and try to disrupt what's going on, I
8 object to it.
9 MR. DANDAR: What are you talking about?
10 MR. GARKO: Excuse me, counselor.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I'll tell you exactly what
12 I'm talking about. What you're doing is
13 looking at the witness ?? what you're doing at
14 the witness, you're looking at him and you're
15 shaking your head and that's improper.
16 MR. GARKO: No, I'm not.
17 MR. DANDAR: He's not.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you are.
19 MR. GARKO: No, I am not.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking right at you
21 when you do it.
22 MR. GARKO: Do you know what no means?
23 MR. WEINBERG: It's very disruptive.
24 MR. GARKO: No means no.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, guess what? You
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1 were and I object to it, Ken, and you need to
2 instruct Mr. Garko ??
3 MR. DANDAR: I'm not instructing him.
4 You're out of line. I'm sitting right next to
5 him.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not ?? I'm looking at
7 him.
8 MR. GARKO: I'm sitting here rubbing my
9 eye.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking at him and I
11 know exactly what he did and it's improper.
12 He's looking right at Mr. Young ??
13 MR. GARKO: I'm not looking at Mr. Young.
14 MR. WEINBERG: ?? and what he is doing is
15 he's making head gestures and it's improper.
16 MR. DANDAR: He's not doing what you're
17 saying.
18 MR. GARKO: No, I am not.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, he is.
20 MR. DANDAR: Why are you creating this
21 scene?
22 MR. GARKO: You're just trying to make a
23 false record.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not making a false
25 record. I'm making an accurate ??
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1 MR. GARKO: You're making a false record,
2 Counselor.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Sort of like what's been
4 going on every deposition we've ever been to?
5 Look, I haven't said one thing about you
6 before but that was improper.
7 MR. GARKO: There is nothing to say,
8 Counselor.
9 MR. WEINBERG: That was improper.
10 MR. GARKO: There's nothing to say.
11 MR. WEINBERG: And it's inappropriate.
12 It's inappropriate.
13 MR. GARKO: You lack civility.
14 MR. WEINBERG: It's inappropriate.
15 MR. GARKO: You lack civility.
16 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, incorrect.
17 MR. GARKO: Learn some civility,
18 Counselor.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Will you ?? will you tell
20 him ??
21 MR. DANDAR: You're the one that's
22 arguing with him.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with him.
24 MR. GARKO: If you want to argue with me,
25 Counselor, I'll be more than happy to engage
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1 you.
2 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Stop.
3 MR. WEINBERG: What, are you threatening
4 me now?
5 MR. DANDAR: Stop.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Are you threatening me?
7 MR. DANDAR: Stop.
8 MR. GARKO: You're threatening me.
9 MR. WEINBERG: No, I didn't. I asked you
10 to control yourself.
11 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to interrupt
12 you every time that Rinder, who now is sitting
13 next to you, starts to smirk, or Moxon who
14 starts to shake his head?
15 MR. WEINBERG: All you've ?? that's what
16 you've been doing through the whole
17 deposition.
18 MR. DANDAR: Do you want me to continue
19 to do that?
20 MR. WEINBERG: You've been doing it.
21 MR. DANDAR: I will do it.
22 MR. WEINBERG: This is the first time
23 I've said anything.
24 MR. DANDAR: It's improper.
25 MR. WEINBERG: What this ?? yeah, what
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1 you are doing is ??
2 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting next to him.
3 He's not doing what you are claiming.
4 MR. WEINBERG: No. How could you ??
5 MR. DANDAR: I would be the first to
6 admit it.
7 MR. WEINBERG: What, you've got eyes in
8 the back of your head?
9 MR. DANDAR: I'm sitting right next to
10 him.
11 MR. WEINBERG: You've got eyes in the
12 back of your head?
13 MR. DANDAR: I know how frustrating it
14 is. Let's go on.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it is frustrating to
16 sit here for two days ??
17 MR. DANDAR: And don't call Mr. Young a
18 so?called expert.
19 MR. WEINBERG: You know what ??
20 MR. DANDAR: That is improper as well.
21 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? He's not
22 an expert.
23 MR. DANDAR: Well, you may think that but
24 don't put it in your question.
25 MR. WEINBERG: I think I've established
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1 it.
2 MR. DANDAR: Don't put it in your
3 question. It's insulting. It's
4 argumentative.
5 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not. It's not.
6 It's not. It's not because he's not an
7 expert.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q. Do you understand as somebody that
10 purports to be an expert, that you've got to have
11 some methodology from which to establish your
12 expert opinions, do you understand that?
13 MR. DANDAR: Objection; improper form,
14 argumentative.
15 Q. Do you understand that?
16 A. That is not a requirement for being an
17 expert in every subject or field. Perhaps
18 statistically or in the physical sciences or in
19 doing Gallup polls.
20 Q. You didn't ?? in any event, you didn't
21 establish a methodology in order to put together
22 your opinions that you rendered in this case, is
23 that right?
24 A. Well, go back to the question that
25 was sort of, I guess, sort of pending.
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1 Q. Just answer that question.
2 A. That was when that outbreak occurred. I
3 didn't understand what you mean by methodology.
4 Q. Well, a way in which you established a,
5 you know, a scientific way in which you go about
6 obtaining data, reviewing data, analyzing data and
7 developing your opinion. Did you establish one?
8 A. And you require this for me to do this?
9 Q. I'm asking you if you did it.
10 A. I did a ?? no, I did no scientific
11 analysis.
12 Q. All right. That's all I'm asking you in
13 the questions. Did you ??
14 A. This is certainly not required to be an
15 expert in every field to do that. If you want to
16 argue that ??
17 Q. So you did not establish a methodology to
18 analyze ??
19 A. I have a method. It may not fit your
20 criteria but I have a method, of course. Do you
21 want to ask me about my methods?
22 Q. Did you have a method in which to analyze
23 data before you came in here today?
24 A. Of course I analyzed data.
25 Q. But your method was what?
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1 A. Okay. You want a narrative now? I'm
2 willing to ??
3 Q. No, I don't want a narrative. Is there
4 some scientific method that you developed?
5 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Young, do not answer ??
6 do not ask him any questions. Once he asks
7 you a question, you simply give your answer.
8 A. I'm more than willing to give you a
9 narrative on the analysis of scientific ?? I'm
10 sorry, of Scientology material but you're going ??
11 it's going to require a narrative. It's pretty
12 open?ended. Do you want me to start?
13 Q. That's not what I'm asking you.
14 A. You asked me for my method of analysis.
15 I'm willing to respond, sir.
16 Q. That's not ?? it is not what I'm asking
17 you.
18 A. Yes, you did. You asked me for what
19 analysis did I use?
20 MR. DANDAR: Withdraw the question or
21 reask the question.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Now, what we're doing is
23 unbelievably improper.
24 MR. DANDAR: Don't give him a question
25 back. Just start answering the question.
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1 THE WITNESS: Okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: Don't ask him what he wants.
3 THE WITNESS: Okay.
4 Q. I'll withdraw the question and we'll
5 start over again.
6 A. Let's start again.
7 Q. What I want are answers and not
8 interruptions. How about criteria of method? Do
9 you have some criteria of method that you used for
10 your expert ?? to arrive at your expert opinion?
11 A. I have some criterias of methods, yes.
12 Q. Name one criteria.
13 A. Well, for examples, does this material
14 match the original.
15 Q. What else, what other criteria?
16 A. Okay. Let's ?? then this is going to
17 require a narrative, sir.
18 Q. Criteria doesn't require a narrative.
19 List it. One, you matched materials; two, what?
20 A. Okay. We match materials. We go to
21 original source materials.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. We go to materials published by the
24 organization. We compare the publications against
25 the original source materials. We see whether or
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1 not the materials in the publications have been
2 changed from the source materials. We then just to
3 see whether or not the dates and the quotations
4 match.
5 Q. That's six. What else?
6 A. Do you want me to continue?
7 Q. What other criteria? That's what I want
8 to know. What criteria did you use in your
9 methodology, to establish your methodology, what
10 criteria?
11 A. No, no, no, no, no. That wasn't the
12 question. You said what criteria was I using in
13 the analysis.
14 Q. Go ahead.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. You've just named about six things, the
17 same thing with regard to comparing documents.
18 Okay. That's criteria number one with five
19 subsets. Now, is there some criteria?
20 A. No. I'm sorry, sir. This is getting
21 into an argument now.
22 Q. What other criteria?
23 A. That will suffice for now.
24 Q. Is that it?
25 A. No response I give you satisfies you, so
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1 we move to the next point.
2 Q. Okay. Well, the opinions that you are
3 rendering in this case were rendered specifically
4 with regard to Scientology for litigation, weren't
5 they?
6 A. That would seem to be axiomatically true
7 since I rendered the opinion in deposition. I
8 don't understand your question.
9 Q. Well, for example, you didn't write in any
10 learned work setting forth your opinions, did you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. You didn't publish a learned work with
13 regard to your opinions on Scientology, did you?
14 A. No.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on one second. All
16 right. Those are all my questions subject to
17 reopening the cross depending on our
18 outstanding discovery requests which are
19 before Judge Moody and which ?? some of which
20 have already ?? counsel, Mr. Dandar, has
21 already been ordered to comply with and we
22 don't have.
23 MR. DANDAR: Such as what?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, for example, the
25 information with regard to the Friends of the
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1 Animal Foundation which specifically had to do
2 with Mr. Young.
3 MR. HERTZBERG: Remember the rulings on
4 Tuesday?
5 MR. DANDAR: So if there is more checks
6 by Mr. Minton to the foundation, you want the
7 right to come back and question Mr. Young
8 about that.
9 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's ?? look.
10 MR. DANDAR: That's one. What else?
11 MR. WEINBERG: You're the one that ??
12 well, there is a number of ??
13 MR. HERTZBERG: Whatever the transcript
14 reflects, Mr. Dandar.
15 MR. WEINBERG: There is a number of
16 discovery issues that are outstanding. We are
17 unwilling to be prejudiced by the fact that
18 you have accelerated his testimony and, you
19 know ??
20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I note your
21 objection. Any other questions?
22 MR. HERTZBERG: I would add to that, by
23 the way, since you were in court Tuesday ??
24 MR. DANDAR: Well, wait. You're not the
25 counsel ??
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, but for this, we're
2 done asking questions, he can do this.
3 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond
4 to letters ??
5 MR. WEINBERG: He can either whisper in
6 my ear and I can say it or he can do it.
7 MR. HERTZBERG: Since you don't respond
8 to letters, maybe you can state on the record
9 when you intend to comply with the matters
10 that the judge ordered you to pursue and
11 report back to us on and produce to us. When
12 are you going to do that?
13 MR. DANDAR: When I'm ready.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But, see, that's ??
15 remember, you have ?? our objection is is that
16 you've made representations, and we won't go
17 into them, about Mr. Young and we are in what
18 you've described as an extraordinary or
19 emergency situation. And what we're saying
20 Ken, is, and it's only fair, is that we would
21 be prejudiced if Mr. Young couldn't continue
22 and you are negligent or not diligent in
23 producing what we are entitled to. Okay? And
24 that's what we're saying.
25 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm just curious ??
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1 MR. WEINBERG: So when you say whenever
2 you're ready, I mean the fact is if you think
3 that it's appropriate to wait two or three
4 months to do this, and in the interim
5 Mr. Young becomes unable to testify, we would
6 have a very major issue with that and we would
7 object. And it seems to me that ??
8 THE WITNESS: Not as much as I would.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand that,
10 but I mean it seems to me that ?? for all
11 variety of reasons Mr. Young could be
12 unavailable. I mean all of us could be
13 unavailable. You know that.
14 MR. DANDAR: Right, but my question is
15 besides the funds at the Friends of Animal
16 Foundation, what else at that hearing would
17 pertain to ??
18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think that
19 it was necessarily just that hearing. We had
20 other ?? and I don't even have them in front
21 of me but there is other issues that we
22 weren't able to get to and that are pending
23 that may well be relevant to Mr. Young.
24 MR. DANDAR: You have all the documents
25 in reference to Mr. Young's payment in this
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1 case.
2 MR. WEINBERG: As represented by you,
3 right.
4 MR. DANDAR: And that's accurate. You
5 are waiting to see if Mr. ?? if there are any
6 more funds to the Friends of Animal Foundation
7 from Mr. Minton other than what he testified
8 to. But what else?
9 MR. HERTZBERG: Mr. Dandar, I am not
10 going to ??
11 MR. DANDAR: What else?
12 MR. HERTZBERG: Let me be frank with you.
13 I'm not going to respond in that format
14 because if I omit something in the response,
15 then you're going to claim, as you did the
16 other day before the judge, that we narrowed
17 it down. The judge held a hearing on Tuesday.
18 I do not have my notes with me and I do not
19 have the transcript, but you were sitting
20 there and he ordered that certain information
21 be supplied and it's all of that without any
22 other limitation.
23 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Fine.
24 MR. HERTZBERG: Because there may be
25 other outstanding discovery. So I am not
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1 narrowing, I am not limiting, but every ?? at
2 the very least, the universe of what we're
3 entitled to and for which we are holding this
4 deposition open includes everything the judge
5 ordered on Tuesday, and I will further tell
6 you that I don't think he contemplated that
7 you would take your own time about it. That's
8 not what I got when I was in front of the
9 judge.
10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But does it
11 pay to argue about this right now? I mean it
12 is what it is, Ken, so why don't we just go
13 ahead.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, deposit slips that I
15 can't get the copies ??
16 MR. WEINBERG: With all due respect, we
17 don't resolve that here. We've made our
18 record. Let's go on. Okay?
19 MR. DANDAR: Go on.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm done.
21 MR. DANDAR: Is there any more cross,
22 because then I'll start redirect if there's no
23 more cross.
24 MR. TITUS: I don't have any cross. I
25 just do have ?? want to make sure that I'm not
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1 waiving my ?? any objections that I have
2 previously raised, and I'm also relying upon
3 the fact that it has been represented that
4 this witness has no testimony that affects ??
5 impacts my client and is not being offered to
6 impact my client or any of the individual
7 clients ?? individual defendants in the case.
8 So, based upon that, I rely on that
9 representation and I don't have any
10 cross?examination for Mr. Young. Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
12 MR. DANDAR: He has no testimony that
13 directly concerns your client, that's true,
14 but when you use the word impacts your
15 clients, that's very broad. You already know
16 what his testimony is, so I think you can
17 decide that yourself. Anybody else?
18 MR. HANES: Well, I'm relying on the fact
19 that during your direct examination, when we
20 got to the point of any opinion being offered
21 you relayed, and it's in the record, that you
22 were not offering any opinion against
23 Ms. Johnson as it relies upon the testimony of
24 Vaughn Young. I assume you're not changing
25 that ??
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1 MR. DANDAR: No.
2 MR. POLLI: Or David Houghton.
3 MR. DANDAR: No.
4 MR. HANES: ?? at this point in time.
5 MR. DANDAR: His direct testimony remains
6 the same.
7 MR. HANES: And, obviously, you
8 understand that we would have the right to
9 seek any further relief or a limiting
10 instruction or whatever the court would
11 determine appropriate for the individuals as a
12 result of that.
13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q. On cross?examination, Mr. Young, you were
17 asked about your experience in testifying as an
18 expert in a court. Have you ever testified in
19 court?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Has it involved Scientology matters?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you have given declarations or
24 affidavits in litigated cases involving
25 Scientology?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Have you given any depositions?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And in those cases they involved
6 Scientology?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. When you were in Scientology, did you ever
9 give any affidavits or declarations concerning
10 Scientology?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
12 scope.
13 A. No, just testimony.
14 Q. In court?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. On what occasions did you testify in court
17 while you were a Scientologist?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection;
19 beyond the scope, and I have a continuing
20 objection, if it's okay ??
21 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.
22 MR. WEINBERG: ?? as to any question
23 concerning prior testimony while he was in
24 Scientology because you didn't go into that in
25 direct and we didn't go into that in cross, if
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1 that's okay.
2 MR. DANDAR: Your continuing objection, I
3 appreciate that rather than every question.
4 That's fine.
5 Q. Okay. So under what circumstance ?? tell
6 us about when you testified in court while you were
7 a Scientologist.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative.
9 Q. Go ahead.
10 A. It was during the Gerry Armstrong trial of
11 ?? what was that? 1984 maybe.
12 Q. Who requested you to testify in the Gerry
13 Armstrong trial?
14 A. I don't remember exactly the name of the
15 person but there was a suit being brought
16 against ?? well, there was a suit and countersuit
17 and I was asked to by the Scientology organization.
18 Q. I'm sorry?
19 MR. WEINBERG: This is part of the
20 continuing objection, right?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes.
22 Q. I'm sorry. What organization were you
23 testifying on behalf of?
24 A. Well, I was testifying on behalf of
25 Scientology because I was a member of Author
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1 Services at the time, but I was just testifying on
2 behalf of Scientology.
3 Q. Do you know who the Scientology party was
4 in that litigation with Mr. Armstrong?
5 A. It was Mary Sue Hubbard was the one, I
6 believe, was bringing the suit to try to recover
7 material that was alleged stolen by Mr. Armstrong.
8 Q. And did Mary Sue Hubbard or her attorney
9 retain you to testify in that case?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
11 A. Somebody did. Those things are not that
12 clear inside. You just ?? somebody else ?? any
13 senior can tell you you are going to testify and
14 you just show up.
15 Q. And what did you testify about?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; narrative and
17 it's part of my continuing objection.
18 A. When Mr. Armstrong had ?? I had been
19 working in the archives with Mr. Armstrong, which
20 is a different ?? a long ?? a different story I
21 won't get into, and when he left, by default the
22 archives fell to me to take care of. And so since
23 I was familiar with that and familiar with
24 Mr. Armstrong's work, I was called in about that
25 and some other research I had done into
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1 Mr. Hubbard.
2 Q. Were you testifying on ?? were you
3 testifying against Mr. Armstrong?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
5 A. I was asked to testify against him, to,
6 you know, make it as negative as possible about
7 Mr. Armstrong, yes.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike, not
9 responsive.
10 Q. Were you testifying as a fact witness or
11 were you rendering any opinions?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
13 A. Just a fact witness.
14 Q. Okay. What other cases have you testified
15 in in reference to Scientology while you were a
16 Scientologist?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Part of my continuing
18 objection?
19 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
20 A. That's all.
21 Q. All right. So just the Mr. Armstrong
22 case?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Weinberg asked you about Mr. Minton
25 donating money to the Friends of Animals Foundation
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1 and giving money to Stacy Young.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the
3 statement. I think it mischaracterizes what I
4 said, but I assume that's not part of your
5 question.
6 MR. DANDAR: It was a preface.
7 Q. The question is why didn't Stacy or
8 Mr. Minton tell you about his donations back in
9 October or November of 1997, if you know?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
11 A. Well, I don't know why he wouldn't or
12 would either way, but as far as Stacy not telling
13 me, it was just the arrangement we had, that ?? it
14 was an objection that she sometimes had, that I
15 didn't pay attention to the money that was
16 deposited, and if she made money or I made money,
17 we just deposited it. It wasn't something we
18 discussed.
19 Q. Were there other instances where Stacy
20 would receive money from other sources, donations
21 or any other way and not tell you about it?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
23 How would he know?
24 Q. Did that happen before Mr. Minton ever
25 arrived on the scene?
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1 A. Oh, yes.
2 Q. And how would you find out if she put
3 money in the bank account without telling you about
4 it?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
6 scope. Objection as to the form.
7 MR. HANES: Object as to form.
8 A. I might discover it if I was dealing with
9 a bank balance or doing an ATM withdrawal and there
10 was a noticeable change and I might ask.
11 Q. So Stacy not telling you about
12 Mr. Minton's contributions either to the foundation
13 or to her directly, this is nothing new as far as
14 in time and reference to November or October 1997?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.
16 MR. TITUS: Objection; leading.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Come on, Ken, you're on
18 direct. You can't ask a question like that.
19 Please.
20 A. No, it's not unusual.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg also asked you several
22 questions about your involvement in testifying or
23 being a consultant in cases involving Scientology.
24 Name for us every case that you served in as a
25 consultant for somebody who was suing any
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1 Scientology organization?
2 A. The Dickerson case, she was suing ?? I
3 don't have the exact name of the defendant. It was
4 a communications group but it was basically the
5 Sally Jessy Raphael TV show.
6 Q. Was Dickerson a Scientologist?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did Dickerson retain you as a consultant?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Who retained you as a consultant?
11 A. The attorneys who were representing this
12 communications group which owned Sally Jessy
13 Raphael program.
14 Q. But the communications group, was that the
15 plaintiff or the defendants?
16 A. The defendant.
17 Q. All right. My question was name the cases
18 where you were a consultant for the person who was
19 the plaintiff, the one that filed the lawsuit,
20 against Scientology?
21 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I misunderstood you.
22 Well, most recently, as came out, I'm being
23 retained by Mr. Leipold's firm, who is representing
24 Mr. Wollersheim.
25 Q. That's in the current Wollersheim
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1 litigation?
2 A. Yes, or ongoing, you know, litigation.
3 Q. Okay. When did you first get retained in
4 that case?
5 A. Just a couple of months ago.
6 Q. Okay. So that was in '99?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. What other case have you been
9 retained as a consultant in someone who is suing
10 Scientology, that actually filed a lawsuit against
11 Scientology? And, of course, we're not going to
12 count this case because ?? for obvious, you're
13 here ??
14 MR. WEINBERG: Why wouldn't ?? wait. This
15 does count, right?
16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, but ??
17 A. Oh, well, then I'll go ahead and name
18 this case just to get it on the record.
19 Q. Okay. So outside of the current
20 Wollersheim litigation and this case, are there any
21 other cases where you've been retained on the party
22 that actually filed the lawsuit against
23 Scientology?
24 A. That's the only one I can remember.
25 Q. So just those two?
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1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. All right. What about cases ?? how many
3 cases are there where you have been retained as a
4 consultant where Scientology has filed suit against
5 someone?
6 A. Well, I'd have to pick up the Dickerson
7 case because I misunderstood the first time.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. I'm sorry.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Just so it's ??
11 Scientology ?? I mean I'm sorry to interrupt
12 but I thought he explained, Ken, that
13 Dickerson is a person, not the Church of
14 Scientology, right?
15 MR. DANDAR: We'll correct that. We'll
16 correct that.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. But I mean that's
18 the ?? the question is ?? your question is
19 cases where the Church of Scientology has
20 sued ??
21 THE WITNESS: I misunderstood. It was my
22 error in responding.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. All right.
24 Q. Let's clear it up right now. Dickerson
25 was a Scientologist who sued the producer of the
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1 Sally Jessy Raphael show?
2 A. Well, the Sally Jessy Raphael show and the
3 corporation that owned it.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Like suing CBS, as a ?? for example.
6 Q. And what is your understanding at the time
7 that suit was filed, was Dickerson a Scientologist,
8 just like a public member or staff member or what?
9 A. She was a staff member.
10 Q. Okay. And the communication company that
11 owned the show retained you as a consultant?
12 A. Yeah, the legal firm that was
13 representing ??
14 Q. Okay. All right. Were there any other
15 cases like that, where a Scientologist, an
16 individual, was suing somebody and you were
17 retained to consult the defense?
18 A. Not Scientologists. There is sort of a
19 weird one in the middle. I'm not sure what
20 category it would fall into. That was Elliott
21 Abelson, when he was suing Ford Greene and it
22 involved, you know, the litigation involving
23 Scientology, so ??
24 Q. Who is Elliott Abelson?
25 A. He's a Los Angeles attorney, I believe
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1 he's out of Los Angeles, who had represented the
2 various Scientology entities in litigation.
3 Q. And Mr. Greene is also a lawyer?
4 A. Yes. He's up in the San Francisco Bay
5 area.
6 Q. And Mr. Greene retained you as a
7 consultant?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. Anyone else involving individuals?
10 A. No.
11 Q. All right. Tell us the cases where you've
12 been retained as a consultant for the defense in a
13 case that was brought by a Scientology organization
14 or corporation.
15 A. It started with what we call the Fishman
16 case, of course, I was retained in that. Then I
17 remember the other half of it, which was an
18 individual, which is Baybak, Michael Baybak. I
19 forgot about that. He's an individual who was
20 suing Time magazine.
21 Q. Was he, at the time he filed suit, a
22 public member or a staff member of Scientology?
23 A. No, he was a public member.
24 Q. Who were you consulting for?
25 A. Cahill Gordon.
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1 Q. And who is that?
2 A. They were representing Time magazine.
3 Q. Oh, that was the law firm?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Any others?
6 A. I was retained by Mr. Leipold in a suit
7 brought against ?? brought by Sterling Management
8 ?? not by Sterling Management per se, you know,
9 this is the way you end up knowing them, like
10 saying Sally Jessy Raphael rather than the actual
11 name of the defendant, by Sterling against CAN. He
12 retained me for consulting on that because he had
13 that case. There was the FACT Net case which was
14 ?? the plaintiffs changed around on that one.
15 Q. Do you recall the plaintiff?
16 A. Well, I forget who it finally ended up as
17 but it was moved around between RTC and bridge
18 Publications, but that was being brought against
19 FACT Net and that was the one where I testified in
20 court in Denver.
21 Q. And you were retained by FACT Net?
22 A. I was retained by Faegre Benson, which was
23 the firm representing FACT Net.
24 Q. Okay. Any others?
25 A. Seems like I'm missing something, seems
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1 like it.
2 Q. Okay. I only have listed four cases in
3 which the defense who is representing the party
4 being sued by a Scientologist or a Scientology
5 organization. Is that all that you recall, is
6 four?
7 A. There was another one which was ??
8 Mr. Leipold had retained me in one of the CAN suits
9 to advise him on. I don't remember which one that
10 was. It was another lawsuit. The reason that
11 that's difficult is because he was handling ??
12 there was multiple lawsuits being brought against
13 CAN, so he was just retaining me sort of in general
14 because of those and I don't think that was a
15 particular one because he had so many.
16 MR. HANES: Objection and move to strike.
17 That answer is nonresponsive to your question.
18 MR. DANDAR: Please do that at the end of
19 his answer though. Okay?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I thought it
21 was at the end of his answer.
22 MR. DANDAR: I didn't think so.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q. How do these attorneys or their parties
25 that they represent find out about you?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
2 A. Sometimes I didn't know. I certainly
3 didn't contact them. They would just ?? I'll give
4 an example. Mr. Berry and Mr. Leipold, the first
5 time we started, somebody had told them about me,
6 that I had 21 years in and I spoke the language and
7 the vocabulary, and so they just got my phone
8 number, called up and said can we talk, and sort of
9 pretty much the way you called me up and said can
10 we talk. People just find me later on through a
11 reference or some other attorney would refer. I
12 don't know sometimes how they found me, and I
13 wouldn't really ask. I'd just say okay and we'd
14 just take it from there.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike
16 that whole answer as to the narrative.
17 Q. Do you advertise anywhere that you are a
18 former Scientologist available as a consultant?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Do you go on the Internet and advertise
21 your availability as a consultant in Scientology
22 cases?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
24 A. No, other than what was put into evidence
25 when I made some postings that I had been retained.
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1 No, I've never made any what might be called
2 promotional advertising of any type.
3 Q. Have you ever sent any type of
4 correspondence or any other type of communication
5 to lawyers offering your services?
6 A. No, never.
7 Q. What type of work have you done since
8 leaving Scientology in 1989?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
10 What do you mean? You mean employment?
11 Q. Employment, where you make money to earn
12 a living. That was part of Mr. Weinberg's
13 cross?examination.
14 A. The first couple of years, a lot of
15 free?lancing, working for a couple of newspapers,
16 writing for a magazine.
17 Q. Tell us what you mean by free?lancing.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Before you get to that,
19 just for the record, the first couple of
20 years, that means '89 and '90, is that what
21 that means?
22 A. '89 to '90, '91, and the free?lancing
23 spilled over even up to the point like the Der
24 Spiegel article is freelance.
25 Q. Who did you freelance for?
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1 A. Well, free?lancing is just wherever you
2 can get your articles sold. I sold everywhere from
3 Elks magazine to Orange Coast magazine, which is a
4 regional magazine in Orange County, wherever you
5 can sell an article. You just present it, they
6 accept it and you get your check.
7 Q. What type of things were you writing
8 about?
9 A. Oh, wrote about the Internet, wrote about
10 the San Diego Zoo, I wrote about the dangers at the
11 San Diego airport, I wrote about ?? features on
12 people.
13 Q. Scientology people?
14 A. No. There was not a word ever of that.
15 The first thing ever where that word was even
16 mentioned was in the Quill article of what was
17 that, 1995 or something like that.
18 Q. The first time you wrote about Scientology
19 or Scientology people or anything to do with
20 Scientology was in Quill magazine?
21 A. Yes.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about with
23 regard to a publication or are you talking
24 about with regard to declarations and
25 affidavits?
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1 MR. DANDAR: Publications as a writer.
2 A. The answer is yes.
3 Q. Okay. After leaving Scientology, when is
4 the first time you were retained as a consultant
5 involving Scientology?
6 A. That was in the Fishman case by
7 Mr. Berry's firm. I just lost the name of that
8 one, Calhoun.
9 Q. What year was that?
10 A. 1992 maybe.
11 Q. What type of awards did you receive as a
12 writer, free?lance writer after leaving
13 Scientology?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
15 A. I received a first place award from the
16 San Diego Press Club for best magazine article of
17 the year.
18 Q. What year was that?
19 A. That was ?? I believe that was 19 ?? I
20 believe that was 1990 or 1991. I think it was
21 first or second place from the San Diego Society of
22 Professional Journalists for the same article.
23 Q. Any other awards in writing?
24 A. No. No.
25 MR. DANDAR: Do you have all the exhibits
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1 that were here yesterday?
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think so.
3 MR. DANDAR: Let me have those, please.
4 Q. Well, tell you what, Mr. Young, why don't
5 you just go in there and, if you would, please,
6 pull out Exhibit Number 6 and 7, that's Defendant's
7 6 and 7.
8 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? Maybe I can
9 find them for you.
10 A. I'm getting there. There is 6.
11 Q. Try to keep them in order.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Now, what ?? now 6 is the letter that was
14 sent to you by the Department of Labor, is that
15 correct?
16 A. Department of State.
17 Q. See, I got it backwards. Okay.
18 Department of State. And what was the purpose of
19 them sending you this letter?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
21 A. That ?? to give religious recognition to
22 the Church of Scientology and also to inform us
23 that the individuals that was the subject of the
24 dispute would be given a visa, be given their
25 visas. They were out of South Africa.
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1 Q. Why was the State Department of the United
2 States government sending you this letter, why you?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
4 A. I was the one when this thing had
5 happened with the Silcocks, S?i?l?c?o?c?k, was sent
6 back to Washington, D.C. to the State Department to
7 started dealing with this, and this was over a
8 period of, oh, a couple of months, so I was the one
9 that was dealing with this directly with the State
10 Department, so that's why the letter came to me.
11 Q. How was it that you were the only one in
12 Scientology dealing with the State Department?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
14 Q. Well, I mean ?? he's right about that
15 form. Was there anyone else dealing with the State
16 Department besides yourself?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of
18 foundation.
19 A. Not in this category, no.
20 Q. And who in Scientology designated you or
21 requested you to deal with the State Department
22 with this issue?
23 A. Arty Marin, who was the deputy guardian of
24 public relations.
25 Q. And what was your position in Scientology
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1 at the time that you were dealing with the State
2 Department?
3 A. I was a member of the Snow White program,
4 which was ?? the purpose was to deal ?? one of the
5 things was to deal with difficulties with
6 government agencies, and so I ?? it fell to me to
7 go out and do this.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
9 not responsive.
10 Q. When was the Snow White program?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
12 scope. We didn't go into that in
13 cross?examination.
14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. I'm not
15 going to argue about it.
16 Q. What was the Snow White program?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection for the same
18 reason I just stated.
19 A. Put in the simplest terms, it was to,
20 basically, track down the sources of problems with
21 various government agencies. That's putting it in
22 the simplest of terms.
23 Q. And what was your position at Scientology
24 when you were part of this Snow White program?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Ken, I didn't
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1 ask him anything about the Snow White program.
2 You went into it already.
3 MR. DANDAR: State your objection. Don't
4 speak. Just state it.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's beyond the
6 scope. We're going to sit ?? we're going to
7 go for another six hours?
8 MR. DANDAR: No. This letter and the
9 other one opened the door to everything that
10 this letter pertains to.
11 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't open the door to
12 anything. You can't go and reask questions
13 that you've already asked that we didn't
14 cross?examine on. Go ahead. That's my
15 objection.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q. What was your position in Scientology when
18 you were part of this Snow White program that
19 resulted in Exhibit 6?
20 A. That was the only position. That's all
21 that was required.
22 Q. Okay. But what was your ?? were you in
23 the Guardian's Office at that time?
24 A. Yes, Guardian's Office, PR.
25 MR. HANES: Object to the form.
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1 Q. What city was that in?
2 A. Los Angeles.
3 Q. What did you do in order to accomplish the
4 State Department of the United States stating in
5 this letter of December 30th, 1974, that the Church
6 of Scientology is a, quote, religious denomination
7 having a bona fide organization in the United
8 States?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form,
10 objection; seeks a narrative.
11 A. Put in the simplest of terms, I went back
12 to find out who had been in charge of the Silcocks
13 immigration visa application within that section,
14 cornered him and started a screaming match, which
15 we were trained to do, and basically worked him
16 over until he said some seriously embarrassing
17 things, and then I took him down the hall to his
18 senior and we started doing embarrassing ?? to
19 embarrass the hell out of him, then sent in the
20 attorneys to threaten the lawsuits based upon
21 remarks made, and just basically, you know, put
22 their arms up behind their back until they ?? it
23 took about six weeks, maybe eight weeks to get this
24 and that's why they finally coughed it up.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.
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1 The only thing he didn't say, Ken, was that he
2 took a gun at him and stuck it to his head.
3 Come on. This is really improper.
4 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. It's ??
5 Q. Mr. Young, he just states his objection.
6 Don't engage him.
7 THE WITNESS: It's true.
8 Q. Was there any proof concerning the bona
9 fides of any claim to being a religion of
10 Scientology that you used in order to secure this
11 visa problem?
12 A. We used a ??
13 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Objection as to
14 the form.
15 A. We used the book that was being used the
16 other day, the background and ceremonies book. We
17 didn't have much material at that time. Most of
18 what we had was pretty much in that, and as well as
19 any other newspaper stories that we might have
20 generated using the word Church of Scientology, and
21 these would be put into packs and that was the
22 follow?up that was done later on once we had them
23 in a ?? you know, once we were making them an offer
24 they couldn't refuse, and then you give them all
25 the material.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike;
2 nonresponsive.
3 Q. What do you mean making them an offer
4 they couldn't refuse?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
6 A. Well, simply presenting them with
7 material obviously hadn't worked, otherwise, we
8 would have gotten this recognition years before.
9 The Hubbard policy is to make or manufacture enough
10 threat, and so that's what we had to do, is we had
11 to make or manufacture enough threat.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
13 responsive.
14 Q. How long did this ?? how long did it take
15 you to succeed in getting this visa problem
16 corrected?
17 A. I don't remember. It seems like it was a
18 couple of months, maybe two, three months, most of
19 it being spent in just, you know, the long time it
20 takes governments to respond in just letters.
21 Q. Do you recall the names of the lawyers
22 that were involved in representing Scientology who
23 threatened to sue for these defamatory statements?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
25 A. No, I ?? no, I don't.
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1 Q. Okay. All right. Look at Exhibit
2 Number 7. That one is from the Department of
3 Labor, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And were you involved in securing a
6 designation or recognition from the US Department
7 of Labor in 1975 where they concluded that the
8 Church of Scientology has established itself as a
9 bona fide religious organization?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What did you do to secure that recognition
12 for the Church of Scientology?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
14 It asks for a narrative.
15 A. This one came about off of material
16 obtained ?? well, I don't know if it was ?? I'm
17 sorry. This was ?? this gets very complex. We
18 just ?? we were raided in 1977 for stealing
19 documents from the government, so we were working
20 from documents, some were FOI, some were stolen.
21 So we got a document, I don't know if it was stolen
22 or other FOIs, what I was going to say, but it had
23 information in there that was really quite
24 ridiculous. It said that Scientologists were given
25 electroshock, they carried rifles and things that,
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1 you know, were ridiculous, you know, they were just
2 completely ridiculous.
3 So I was sent back to the Labor Department
4 to confront them with this. It was a labor thing.
5 In here it says the Foley memorandum. It was a
6 memo that was written by one Shirley Foley, as
7 spelled as in Shirley Temple. So I went back there
8 to find Shirley Foley and basically the same
9 tactic, went in there and pounded and screamed and
10 found out that Shirley was a guy, my first
11 surprise.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Are you done?
13 A. And basically did the same thing here but
14 it was mainly because it was so false, it was
15 mainly, after that, the threats of the attorneys.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. It's not
17 responsive. It was a narrative. It was
18 improper. Ken, this is not proper redirect.
19 All right? And I strongly object to this.
20 You could not do this in court. No judge
21 would allow you to do this. No judge would
22 allow Mr. Young to rant on like he's doing.
23 Q. What material did the Shirley memorandum
24 reference when you said it was false about having
25 guns or electroshock?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
2 A. I didn't understand. What did it use as
3 its source of information?
4 Q. Right. What was the source of information
5 for that?
6 A. That was part of the problem. There was
7 no real source on it. It just said according to
8 various sources Scientologists use electroshock,
9 carry guns, and there was a number of other things
10 that were clearly from ?? some of it we could tell
11 was from newspaper articles, some others we
12 couldn't tell where it was from.
13 Q. And those allegations ??
14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Move to strike;
15 not responsive.
16 Q. Those allegations against Scientology
17 were false, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So if those were false allegations, then
20 what source documents or resources did you use to
21 convince the Department of Labor to recognize the
22 Church of Scientology as a bona fide religious
23 organization?
24 A. Well, we did present materials regarding
25 the E?meter, which that seems to be what they were
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1 talking about with electric shock. That's the only
2 thing we could talk about. There was nothing we
3 could present regarding rifles. We just dug up
4 what we could and between that and the threats, you
5 know, in the face, pound the desk threats was what
6 we did. It was a combination.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
8 not responsive.
9 Q. Tell me what you mean by the threats.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
11 A. We were trained to, when it's required,
12 you go in there and you pound the table, you
13 scream, if you have to, you know, you're hauled out
14 by the police to make a scene, whatever was
15 required to get what you're going for.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.
17 Q. Well, I'm trying to get more detailed
18 information on this. Is this like one instance,
19 did you actually yourself go in and do this at the
20 Department of State?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
22 Q. Excuse me. The Department of Labor?
23 A. Yes, I did this. I remember distinctly
24 pounding on his desk and screaming in his face.
25 Q. And who was this?
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1 A. Mr. Foley.
2 Q. And how long did that go on?
3 A. The screaming?
4 Q. Yes.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, I have an objection to
6 this entire line of questions. Could I have a
7 continuing objection?
8 A. It was only just a matter of a few
9 minutes, a couple of minutes and he had to get out
10 of there and I just followed him to another office
11 and continued to scream.
12 Q. How long did that happen? Go on.
13 A. Then the seniors were brought in and he
14 left, and then we talked for another 15 minutes.
15 Q. And was that all that you had to do in
16 order to secure this designation?
17 A. No.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
19 Q. Did you do anything else?
20 A. I came back for another meeting and then
21 the attorneys sent in their letters and that was
22 the end of my direct contact with labor.
23 Q. And what do you mean the attorneys were
24 sent in?
25 A. By correspondence.
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1 Q. And how soon after that did you obtain
2 this letter from the Department of Labor?
3 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Object to the form.
5 A. This was several months. This might have
6 been three, maybe four months. This was a long
7 one.
8 Q. Was there anyone else in charge of
9 securing this designation from the Department of
10 Labor in 1975 other than you?
11 A. No. I was in charge.
12 Q. While you were a member for 21 years in
13 Scientology, was Scientology, throughout that time,
14 attempting to obtain tax exempt religious status?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can you show me Exhibit 8, please? What
18 was the purpose of you writing this letter dated
19 July 22nd, 1975, to the assistant solicitor,
20 Department of Labor, in Washington, D.C.?
21 A. This was ?? now I remember. This was
22 after a phone call where they just said they
23 weren't able to take any further action and so I
24 had to summarize, and so that's why it contains
25 references to various letters and meetings that go
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1 back to May, making the demand, sort of like the
2 final demand. So this letter was dated July 22nd,
3 '75, and the concession letter was in November.
4 Q. What was your position in Scientology at
5 the time you wrote that letter?
6 A. It was the same as the one for the
7 Department of State.
8 Q. And what is that?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and
10 answered.
11 A. The title would mean nothing. It was PR
12 liaison. It just was a title used for what we were
13 doing.
14 Q. And were you a member of the Sea Org at
15 that time?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What was your hat, your position in
18 Scientology at that time?
19 A. Well, at that point with the letters, I
20 was PR liaison or deputy PR liaison.
21 Q. Okay. Now, when you joined Scientology,
22 that was in 1968?
23 A. Yes. Well, when I feel I became one by
24 reading the books.
25 Q. Okay. What was the name of the mother
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1 church in Scientology at that time, in the late
2 '60s?
3 A. I didn't know a name. I just knew books.
4 I didn't even know there were churches. I was out
5 in the middle of California.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
7 not responsive.
8 A. I assume you're asking about that time
9 what did I think.
10 Q. No. I'm asking if you actually knew at
11 that time that there was a mother church?
12 A. No, I didn't know.
13 Q. Okay. When did you first learn that there
14 was a mother church?
15 A. Not until I got my training in the
16 Guardian's Office a couple of years later.
17 Q. Okay. Did you learn the name of the
18 mother church at that time?
19 A. Well, not really. We didn't deal with the
20 corporate in that way. The organization was set up
21 quite differently. The Church of Scientology of
22 California was dominant because it was just there
23 like the advanced organization was there, but we
24 didn't deal with it in that way. Plus, the
25 Guardian's Office had its own network, so we didn't
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1 have to deal with those churches in that way.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
3 responsive.
4 Q. Were you a member of Scientology when the
5 Church of Scientology International was formed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what was the Church of Scientology
8 International?
9 A. That's what became the mother church.
10 Q. Okay. Were you aware of the name of the
11 mother church before the incorporation of the
12 Church of Scientology International?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asked and
14 answered.
15 A. That was the Church of Scientology of
16 California.
17 Q. What happened to the Church of Scientology
18 of California?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
20 It's also beyond the scope.
21 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 10 opened the door to
22 that one too.
23 MR. WEINBERG: No door was open.
24 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
25 A. It basically just sort of ceased to be,
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1 just became a shell. It just isn't there.
2 Q. And do you know why?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;
4 outside the scope.
5 A. That's one of the arguments in the
6 Wollersheim case that's being argued, so I don't
7 want to step into that one too much.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike.
9 Q. You were shown also Exhibit 11, Defense
10 Exhibit 11, which is an RTC letter from the IRS
11 recognizing RTC as a tax exempt religious
12 organization.
13 A. Yes, I have it here.
14 Q. What is the purpose of the RTC?
15 A. That was ?? we covered that in cross as to
16 what ?? they are reading from the bylaws, unless
17 you are asking my opinion.
18 Q. No, I'm not asking you to read from the
19 bylaws. I'm basing this ?? my question is based
20 upon your experience in Scientology, what was the
21 purpose of RTC?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; asks for a
23 narrative.
24 A. With the reorganization there used to be
25 two basic networks or what was called arm. One was
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1 the Sea Organization and one was the Guardian's
2 Office, and RTC was to bring those two arms
3 together. So you had a Sea Org enforcement, at the
4 same time you had an enforcement through the
5 Guardian's Office channels so that you could get
6 enforcement and compliance, and that was ?? that's
7 what it was basically to do.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
9 responsive.
10 Q. Based upon your experience within
11 Scientology, who had the more senior power to get
12 enforcement, RTC or the Sea Org?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;
14 no foundation. This man has not been and will
15 never be qualified to give an opinion like
16 that, if that's what you're seeking.
17 A. Well, the Sea Org always had the power to
18 go into the organizations long before RTC was
19 formed or anything else. Its power is much more
20 old ?? much older, much more housed in Hubbard's
21 policies, and RTC just became the house where they
22 resided. It was the power of the Sea Org that went
23 into the RTC. They didn't derive their power from
24 RTC. It's almost as if RTC derived its power from
25 the Sea Org.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
2 not responsive.
3 Q. Mr. Weinberg asked you some questions
4 concerning the minister's course. Whose idea was
5 it for you to take the minister's course?
6 A. It was part of my qualifications that I ??
7 to be a PR, since I was going to be in public
8 relations, that I needed to do that so I could be a
9 minister.
10 Q. And you were shown a certificate dated I
11 believe February of 1970. Do you recall as you sit
12 here today when you completed the minister's
13 course?
14 A. No, but there was something ?? that's the
15 one time on any exhibit I would seriously question
16 on the date because, I'll say it again, I had never
17 even been into the San Francisco organization until
18 I was recruited into the Guardian's Office, and I
19 had been in Davis for a couple of years. So that
20 ?? the minister's course was in San Francisco. The
21 earliest it could have been would have been '71 and
22 even then it would have been later in '71.
23 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to
25 strike; not responsive.
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1 Q. Within your experience within
2 Scientology, why does Scientology use the cross ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
4 Q. ?? that Mr. Weinberg was asking you
5 about?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of
7 foundation, particularly in light of his
8 testimony on cross?examination where he said
9 that he professed not to know.
10 Q. If you know, answer the question.
11 A. I'm sorry. I got lost between his ?? his
12 objection and your question.
13 Q. They are speaking objections. They are
14 all totally improper.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. The
16 question is totally improper.
17 Q. Why does Scientology ??
18 MR. DANDAR: Just object.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that's what I'm
20 trying to do.
21 MR. DANDAR: Just object to the form.
22 You know speaking objections are improper.
23 MR. WEINBERG: And you know that it's not
24 proper to ??
25 MR. DANDAR: Here we go.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: ?? continue to ask
2 questions like why this and why that. Come
3 on.
4 MR. DANDAR: Really? Why is it not a
5 good question?
6 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's not.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q. Why does Scientology use the cross?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form;
10 lack of foundation.
11 A. As it was instructed to me, it was to
12 make us have the appearance of a religion, along
13 with the garb.
14 MR. TITUS: Move to strike.
15 Q. And who instructed you?
16 A. When I was being trained in the Guardian's
17 Office, Department 20, as to religious image.
18 Q. Did the name of the Guardian's Office
19 change?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what is the name it now has?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
23 A. It's still Department 20 but now it's
24 called the Office of Special Affairs.
25 Q. What is a flap in Scientology definition?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
2 scope. We already went over that in direct
3 and we didn't go into that in cross.
4 MR. DANDAR: My notes say you did.
5 A. It's just a situation that needs
6 handling. If it's a big flap, it's called a Hill
7 10.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
9 not responsive.
10 THE COURT REPORTER: A what?
11 THE WITNESS: Hill 10, with number 10.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q. Now, you, on cross?examination, mentioned
14 that you had some involvement in publishing the
15 book What is Scientology. Can you please tell us
16 what your involvement was in that publication?
17 A. It came out ?? the first time it came out
18 was a number of years ago in a totally different ??
19 a much smaller, different version, and I was
20 involved in helping to just write portions of it,
21 do some editing of it. It was produced by
22 Department 20 in order to create religious image
23 and get copies to the government.
24 Q. Was there any other department besides
25 Department 20 while you were in Scientology that
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1 was used to create this religious image?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
3 A. No. Department 20 is in charge of it.
4 Q. Based upon your years of experience in
5 Scientology, is there any part of Scientology that
6 has religious beliefs rather than science?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form of
8 the question. He's not qualified, and among
9 other things, he's not qualified to render an
10 opinion like that, if one could ever be.
11 A. Internally, people just simply believe in
12 the tech, and Mr. Hubbard, from day one, was saying
13 it was very scientific, it was very empirical, it
14 could be proven, it could be tested and it was
15 never a matter of belief and ?? I mean never used
16 the term religious practice except externally. It
17 was just a matter of standard tech, as Mr. Weinberg
18 said, just doing it in an exact way, like repairing
19 a car. There is just certain steps that you do to
20 track down and see it's the carburetor and then you
21 fix it.
22 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; speculation,
23 lack of foundation, based on hearsay.
24 Q. Within your experience ?? within your
25 experience as a Scientologist, was there any ??
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1 ever any other occasion where you were taught that
2 something depended upon faith rather than actual
3 science?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike.
5 A. Faith ??
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form
7 and it's ?? go ahead.
8 Q. That's all right. Go ahead.
9 A. Faith, the idea of faith in Scientology
10 would be just a complete contradiction to
11 everything ever taught. The last thing you should
12 have is faith because at the other end of faith,
13 perhaps, let's just say, is knowledge. Faith
14 requiring the belief of something that's not there,
15 that's not provable. He kept insisting it was
16 provable, therefore, there was no ?? to be no faith
17 in the tech, there was to be knowledge.
18 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; beyond the
19 scope of direct.
20 Q. The question from Mr. Weinberg, he asked
21 you where does the authority come from in
22 Scientology, does it come from a post in the org,
23 and you answered yes and no, and he invited you to
24 explain that on redirect. So can you please
25 explain what you mean by your answer yes and no?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: First of all, I object as
2 to the form. I don't believe that that's what
3 I said, but subject to that, why don't you go
4 ahead and answer.
5 A. Well, we could take it at the very top.
6 Mr. Miscavige's authority has always been based
7 upon Mr. Miscavige. It's never been based upon any
8 chairman of the board. The RTC became the most
9 senior organization with the most power rather than
10 ASI because he moved from ASI to RTC. The power
11 that comes down within Scientology organizations is
12 simply the power that is carried and recognized.
13 This is a very difficult thing to describe to
14 people, but it's because it's something that you
15 simply have to learn.
16 Internally, it's very simple. There is an
17 organizational chart. There is seniors and there
18 is juniors. And then this other little thing comes
19 in. One day somebody else just comes in and they
20 are from some other organization or some other
21 echelon and they've got power and that's all
22 you've ?? have to learn, is they've just got the
23 power to do what they want.
24 Q. If they had the power ??
25 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
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1 responsive.
2 Q. If they had the power to do what they
3 want, you said from some other echelon, is that
4 other echelon always the Sea Org?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
6 Come on, Ken.
7 Q. Or is it something else?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
9 A. It's always going to be some sort of Sea
10 Organization organization.
11 Q. Explain to us what you mean by how someone
12 can come in from some other Sea Org echelon and say
13 they have the power.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
15 MR. POLLI: Objection to the form.
16 MR. WEINBERG: It totally
17 mischaracterizes what he just said.
18 Q. What do you mean ??
19 MR. WEINBERG: What he said was ??
20 MR. DANDAR: Please, no speaking
21 objections.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then don't
23 misrepresent ??
24 MR. DANDAR: I'll rephrase it. I'll
25 rephrase it.
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1 Q. Describe for us what you mean that
2 someone else from another echelon can come in and
3 have the power over someone else.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
5 That's incomprehensible.
6 MR. TITUS: Objection to the form; beyond
7 the scope.
8 Q. Go ahead.
9 A. The ?? Hubbard wrote about using uniforms
10 in the Sea Org, for the Sea Organization to use
11 uniforms so that it becomes recognizable and for
12 the magazines, et cetera, to promote them in
13 uniforms, so that, for example, Sea Organization
14 personnel arrive, people follow orders.
15 Mr. Weinberg cited an example earlier
16 where some people had stole some information. I
17 think he's probably referring to the one in the UK
18 once, and that was an example where somebody,
19 people, put on Sea Org uniforms, they were not Sea
20 Org, walked into the organization and because these
21 people just respond to the uniform, very Pavlovian,
22 they asked for the information, they walked out and
23 they had it. It just comes with ?? you just
24 recognize the uniform and you just obey, like
25 you're obeying the cops.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Hold on. Move
2 to strike; not responsive. But also, I object
3 because it's offensive, the suggestions that
4 Mr. Young is interjecting, Pavlovian and all
5 that. Come on. I mean that's just offensive
6 and it's improper and I don't know what the
7 point is. It's certainly not ever admissible,
8 but I object and I ask you to just get on with
9 doing a proper redirect.
10 Q. Let's take the Flag Service Organization
11 in Clearwater as an example, and their most senior
12 officer. Who, within your 21 years of experience
13 in Scientology, who has the power to appoint the
14 most senior officer at the Flag Service
15 Organization?
16 A. It could come in various ways. It could
17 come directly from David Miscavige, it could come
18 out of the watch dog committee, it could come out
19 of CMO, it could come out of CSI, it could come out
20 of various places that it could come out of. It
21 depends upon why the person has to be appointed.
22 If somebody has to be removed because there was a
23 flap, it depends upon how high it goes up and,
24 therefore, how, you know, how they get appointed.
25 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike;
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1 nonresponsive, based on pure speculation and
2 based upon his own testimony.
3 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break. Let's
4 take a couple minutes.
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, thanks. I was just
6 about to ask for one.
7 MR. DANDAR: You look like you need one.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Now, what's going to
9 happen here is that it's very obvious ?? I
10 want to be on tape. I want to be on tape.
11 If I was in court, based on the last
12 exchange between Mr. Garko and Mr. Dandar,
13 what's going to happen now is there is going
14 to be some woodshedding with this witness, and
15 I object, and I think it's improper and it
16 would be improper for you to go out with this
17 witness and woodshed him about his answers.
18 MR. HERTZBERG: This is a trial
19 deposition.
20 MR. WEINBERG: This is at trial and that
21 wouldn't be proper.
22 MR. DANDAR: And, you know, I happen to
23 know that. Gee whiz, wowee.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead.
25 MR. DANDAR: Okay? So take a break,
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1 Vaughn, go ahead and stretch and use the rest
2 room.
3 THE WITNESS: No. I'm going to go
4 downstairs for a minute.
5 (Recess.)
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q. I believe on cross?examination you were
8 asked the question about command lines and you said
9 command lines versus corporate lines. Are command
10 lines corporate lines?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
12 A. No.
13 Q. What are command lines?
14 A. Command lines are that line on which
15 orders or information and compliance to orders
16 travel.
17 Q. Does it have any interaction with the
18 corporate structure?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
20 A. In reality, no.
21 Q. On cross you answered the question whether
22 RTC is responsible for protecting the trademarks or
23 marks of Scientology and you said no. Can you
24 explain that?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection because I don't
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1 think that's what he said.
2 Q. Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but did
3 you say that on cross?
4 A. Well, I ?? sometimes the questions that I
5 get asked are composites and I may have responded
6 no to that, because I know later on I did admit
7 that that was included in it but I guess I'd have
8 to figure out which question I was responding to.
9 Q. Is RTC in Scientology responsible for
10 Scientology's trademarks?
11 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.
12 A. RTC is responsible for the trademarks,
13 yes.
14 Q. And is RTC composed only of Sea Org
15 members?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What is a corrective mission?
18 A. It's Sea Org personnel, two or more, sent
19 into an area to basically fix or correct something
20 that is wrong with the organization.
21 Q. And what corporations can the Sea Org
22 members be from?
23 A. Any. RTC, for example, located in
24 California could bring somebody in from let's say
25 Copenhagen and send them to South Africa. They
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1 don't have to be coming directly out of the RTC
2 organization, they just have to be Sea Org
3 personnel.
4 Q. What types of things do corrective
5 missions accomplish, what do they do?
6 MR. TITUS: Object to the form; lack of
7 foundation.
8 A. They could do anything from change of
9 personnel to going in and let's say an organization
10 has not been producing promotion, to go in and fix
11 to get the promotion, it might be sent in for a
12 legal case, it might be sent in for any number of
13 reasons. There is just ?? anything that felt needs
14 to be corrected can be corrected, from personnel to
15 legal.
16 Q. When you say that it's sent in to change
17 personnel, what type of personnel are we talking
18 about?
19 A. Anybody within the organization, the
20 mission has the authority to make those changes as
21 if they were staff of the organization, as if it
22 was a commanding officer of the organization.
23 Q. Is there any limitation on the rank of the
24 personnel that they can remove?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
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1 A. No. The Sea Org mission has the
2 seniority over all the ranks within the
3 organization.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
5 responsive.
6 Q. Now, on cross?examination you testified
7 that Scientology was reorganized in the early
8 1980s. Do you know why it was reorganized while
9 you were there?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Why is that?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
14 A. Because after the raid of 1977, with Mary
15 Sue Hubbard and the executives going to jail, the
16 Guardian's Office or Department 20 had been pretty
17 much decimated and Hubbard had lost his command
18 lines in, and so new barriers had to be put up, new
19 structure had to be put in to basically fix
20 everything that ?? so it would never happen again.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
22 responsive.
23 Q. What do you mean by Hubbard lost his
24 command lines after the FBI raid?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
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1 A. Well, Hubbard had been in command of
2 Scientology basically from day one, and when he was
3 on the ship, it was just a long?distance command
4 line. He always had some means of establishing his
5 command lines in. And after the raid, when he had
6 to simply take off, new methods of coming in other
7 than through what is called the commodore's
8 messengers organization had to be reestablished
9 because all of that was known and the basis that he
10 had used was known. So new avenues had to be
11 created and that was going to be ASI and RTC.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
13 responsive. Move to strike; lack of
14 foundations.
15 Q. But in plain, simple terms, can you tell
16 the jury what you mean by command lines had to be
17 reestablished?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form
19 because it's based on other improper questions
20 and answers that were given previously.
21 A. It was basically illegal for Hubbard to
22 be running the organization as he was doing it and,
23 in fact, he constantly denied that he was running
24 the organization, saying he had resigned all of his
25 positions and he was just simply a consultant,
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1 advisor, founder, et cetera, whereas, he was really
2 keeping track of statistics and issuing various
3 orders in. And so that had to be maintained but it
4 had to be maintained covertly.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not
6 responsive, narrative, and a host of other
7 problems that I guess can be addressed at
8 trial with an answer like that.
9 Q. Upon Hubbard's death, did any one person
10 or group of people take over his authority in
11 Scientology?
12 MR. TITUS: Object to the form.
13 A. Eventually.
14 Q. And who was that?
15 A. Well, eventually it was David Miscavige.
16 Q. Did that happen while you were still a
17 member of Scientology?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And did Mr. Miscavige have the same
20 authority as Mr. Hubbard or was it any different in
21 any way?
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
23 A. Well, I'd say other than the charisma and
24 the tradition and being he was the founder, et
25 cetera, of course, he can't carry any of that, but
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1 as far as authority, he certainly has carried the
2 authority.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike;
4 nonresponsive.
5 Q. Was Scientology your former religion?
6 A. No, if you meant how I started, no.
7 Q. As you sit here today and look back, what
8 was Scientology to you?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
10 You're asking for a narrative.
11 A. It was a philosophy, that's how I always
12 approached it, coming out of the philosophy major,
13 it was that as well as I would call a social
14 program.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you some questions
16 about articles or something written by Mr. Hubbard
17 and you responded that you have actually authored
18 some things for Mr. Hubbard's signature. What are
19 you talking about?
20 A. I authored almost all, except the last
21 couple of paragraphs, of the disconnection issue
22 which came out in I think it was possibly 1985.
23 Q. When you say disconnection issue, what
24 type of issue ?? what are you talking about?
25 A. I believe that was the title of it. It
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1 was the reestablishment of disconnection because it
2 had been canceled, and that policy which came out
3 under Mr. Hubbard's name reestablished the policy.
4 Q. What is disconnection?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
6 scope.
7 A. Disconnection is where a person in a PTS
8 situation, in a PTS situation, Hubbard policy had
9 always been either handle or disconnect. For a
10 long while the disconnect was canceled as an
11 alternative and that was reestablished, which means
12 the person no longer has any communications,
13 dealings with or contact with the other person.
14 Q. What is a PTS situation?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
16 scope.
17 A. PTS stands for ??
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; calls for a
19 narrative.
20 A. PTS stands for potential trouble source,
21 and the manifestations of that is the person is
22 having difficulties in life, getting sick, going up
23 and down, and that will be traced to them being
24 connected to a suppressive person. That's the
25 person they have to disconnect from.
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1 Q. Disconnection means what?
2 A. To have no ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
4 scope. Objection; calls for a narrative.
5 A. It means that they have no further
6 contact with them, they can't see them, speak with
7 them, live in the same house with them, having no
8 dealings with them, et cetera.
9 Q. Does PTS include PTS Type III or is that
10 something different?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
12 Objection; beyond the scope. Ken, we did not
13 go into this in cross?examination.
14 A. It's one of the three types of PTS.
15 There is PTS I, II and III.
16 Q. Is the disconnection issue that you
17 authored for Mr. Hubbard include PTS Type III?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
19 A. It just covers PTS. It doesn't really go
20 into the types.
21 Q. Well, that was ?? my clarifying question
22 was does it cover one particular type of PTS or all
23 types of PTS?
24 A. All types.
25 Q. Now, in Exhibit 38 ?? do you want to pull
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1 that out?
2 MR. WEINBERG: What is Exhibit 38?
3 THE WITNESS: I'm about to find out.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know, Ken?
5 MR. DANDAR: It's something that RTC is
6 mentioned in, something you asked him about.
7 A. It's the license agreement between RTC
8 and CSI dated 18 May '82.
9 Q. Now, you were asked the question whether
10 or not this was issued by Mr. Hubbard and you
11 answered until a certain point.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me? I didn't ask
13 that question.
14 A. Not on this document.
15 Q. All right. Then look at Exhibit 40, Ron's
16 Journal?
17 A. Okay. This is Ron's Journal 38 dated
18 December 31, 1983.
19 Q. Okay. Is this the document that you said
20 it was issued by Mr. Hubbard until a certain point?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
22 A. I don't believe ?? I don't remember using
23 those words for that ?? this document.
24 Q. Okay. Did you help to compile Exhibit 38?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Which is the license agreement on the
2 marks ??
3 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was back still
4 on 40.
5 Q. And I may have the exhibit ??
6 MR. WEINBERG: You just covered it. You
7 just missed it.
8 Q. I may have the exhibits mixed up.
9 MR. WEINBERG: You just asked him if he
10 helped to put together the license agreement,
11 is that what you're asking?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 MR. WEINBERG: 38. The question is did
14 you assist in composing or compiling the
15 license agreement, is that the question?
16 MR. DANDAR: That's the question.
17 A. No.
18 Q. Okay. Did you assist in compiling Ron's
19 Journal Number 38?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. That's Exhibit 40.
23 Q. That's Exhibit 40. All right. And what
24 parts did you assist in?
25 A. The way it got restructured is it's
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1 scattered around. I was helping to compile various
2 paragraphs and statistics, because the information
3 was coming into ASI to send up to ?? for this to be
4 issued. I can see pieces of it. It wasn't in the
5 case of where I wrote text, et cetera. There was
6 parts that I wrote and then just pieces were then
7 reedited and restructured by somebody else.
8 Q. Okay. You were asked ?? if you would turn
9 to page 4 of Exhibit 40, under the title
10 International.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It talks about the full reorganization of
13 corporate status of all Scientology churches and
14 corporations accomplished a year ago. This legally
15 blocks and prevents further takeovers, attacks,
16 false suits and power pushes.
17 Do you have any personal knowledge what
18 Mr. Hubbard is talking about when he says false
19 suits?
20 A. Well ??
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
22 scope.
23 A. Well, any suit brought against
24 Scientology is considered false, so it's almost
25 like a redundancy.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
2 lack of foundation, nonresponsive.
3 Q. And do you know what Mr. Hubbard means
4 when he writes also that the reorganization was to
5 prevent attacks?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
7 Just so it's clear, you're asking Mr. Young as
8 to what Mr. Hubbard meant when he used a word?
9 MR. DANDAR: Right. He assisted in ??
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of
11 foundation.
12 MR. DANDAR: He assisted in the
13 compilation of Exhibit 40.
14 MR. WEINBERG: I believe he said he
15 compiled some numbers or figures and I don't
16 think he said that he sat down with L. Ron
17 Hubbard and composed it.
18 MR. DANDAR: It's also the same paragraph
19 you questioned him about.
20 MR. WEINBERG: The objection stands.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q. Go ahead.
23 A. The idea was to insulate Hubbard behind
24 several barriers so that if organizations were
25 attacked, the idea was that RTC was to be like a
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1 lightning rod. They were to collect the suits or
2 would be able to step in and take it over, because
3 the problem before was the Church of Scientology of
4 Boston might get a suit and you had to be able to
5 always allow somebody to come in and take it over
6 and that's how you redirect the attack.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
8 it was not responsive to the question.
9 MR. TITUS: Also lack of foundation.
10 Q. How do you know that, Mr. Young?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.
12 A. Because this has been under discussion
13 and been discussed quite a bit around ASI.
14 Q. Were you part of those discussions?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would participate in those discussions?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
18 scope.
19 A. David Miscavige, Lehman Spurlock, Norman
20 Starkey, a couple of different attorneys, Sherman
21 Lentz.
22 Q. How would RTC you said be a lightning rod
23 in case the Boston org got sued?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
25 Objection; beyond the scope.
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1 A. Because of the licensing agreement, they
2 have the authority to step in and the idea was to
3 have them at least become parties to the case, if
4 they could.
5 Q. Now, when you said you participated in
6 some of the compilation of Exhibit 40, Ron's
7 Journal 38, did you actually write paragraphs to
8 this or did you just provide information that
9 someone else wrote the paragraphs, or what?
10 A. Oh, I wrote paragraphs. I just was
11 chuckling to myself a while ago because I
12 recognized a few phrases but, I don't know, he
13 might have used the same phrase or somebody else
14 might have, but it got broken up.
15 Q. What do you mean by broken up?
16 A. Well, I wrote a number of paragraphs,
17 several pages, and pieces were used but no
18 paragraphs were used. There is some sentences that
19 are mine that I recognize.
20 Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not this
21 reorganization that Mr. Hubbard writes about in
22 Ron's Journal 38, which is the Defendant's
23 Exhibit 40, has anything to do with the Wollersheim
24 judgment obtained against the mother church?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
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1 MR. TITUS: Beyond the scope.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on one second. Go
3 ahead.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what is that?
6 A. Well, part of the thing was to reorganize
7 it to try to ?? you know, to move everything away
8 from the Wollersheim case.
9 Q. How so?
10 A. Well, that was one of the purposes of the
11 Church of Scientology of California being gutted,
12 was so that there would be nothing there, so other
13 organizations could take over.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Move to strike;
15 lack of foundation.
16 Q. Were you a member in ASI or some other
17 Scientology organization when Mr. Wollersheim
18 obtained his 32 million dollar judgment against the
19 Church of Scientology in California?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike. It's an
21 improper question. It's also way beyond the
22 scope of any of your direct, and don't even
23 suggest that somebody opened the door. Okay?
24 So just go ahead, you know you can't ask the
25 question.
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1 MR. DANDAR: It's called the scope of
2 cross?examination.
3 MR. WEINBERG: It's way beyond the scope
4 of cross?examination and you know that.
5 Nobody said anything about a Wollersheim
6 judgment.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
9 A. I was in Department 20 at the time.
10 Q. Were you part of any discussions about
11 gutting the mother church, the Church of
12 Scientology of California, so that Mr. Wollersheim
13 would not be able to collect on his judgment?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
15 Move to strike; beyond the scope of
16 cross?examination. Ken, this is
17 irresponsible. It is outrageous. It is
18 wasting our time and we're going to move for
19 sanctions.
20 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
21 MR. WEINBERG: We are going to move for
22 sanctions. It's just an absolute waste of
23 time and you know you could never get this in,
24 you know it's improper in this stage. You
25 didn't try it in direct, we didn't touch on it
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1 cross?examination, and now you're asking
2 questions that are so improper that it's
3 ludicrous. And you know that you ?? and
4 you're just wasting every lawyer in this
5 room's time.
6 Q. What's your answer?
7 MR. WEINBERG: And there is other
8 litigation that Mr. Young has already
9 testified that he's a part of, and so what
10 you're trying to do is to use the redirect in
11 this case for purposes of another lawsuit and
12 that is improper and you know it is.
13 MR. HERTZBERG: By the way, he refused to
14 discuss anything he did for Mr. Liepold. Now,
15 you realize these questions are for the
16 benefit of Mr. Leipold.
17 MR. DANDAR: Please.
18 MR. HERTZBERG: But whenever
19 Mr. Leipold's name came up in any part of the
20 discovery deposition, a work product privilege
21 was ??
22 MR. DANDAR: I'm objecting to you talking
23 during the deposition.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'll say that then. You
25 know what ??
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1 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.
2 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, no. Hold on.
3 MR. DANDAR: You stated your objection.
4 How long do you want to talk?
5 MR. WEINBERG: I've got another
6 objection.
7 MR. DANDAR: All right.
8 MR. WEINBERG: And that's the one that
9 was just mentioned. We took Mr. Young's
10 discovery deposition and every time we asked
11 him a question as to what he was doing with
12 regard to anything else, particularly ?? he
13 wouldn't even admit that he did anybody in the
14 Wollersheim case.
15 MR. DANDAR: He talked to you about the
16 affidavit.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah, after the first time
18 when he refused to, wouldn't even tell us that
19 he had done it in it. I mean come on. You
20 talk about something improper. And then we
21 were limited to what was it, two hours because
22 of the fact that you sat on an affidavit.
23 MR. DANDAR: I did?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you did.
25 MR. DANDAR: Oh, really.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you did. You knew
2 that we were entitled to have an affidavit
3 that had already been executed two weeks
4 before we took his deposition in a Scientology
5 case with regard to ??
6 MR. DANDAR: Right. I'm interested in
7 how you know what I know. I'm interested in
8 how you know what I know.
9 MR. WEINBERG: If you don't know that
10 your so?called expert with another lawyer that
11 you have been dealing with for years ??
12 MR. DANDAR: How is it that I know?
13 MR. WEINBERG: If you don't know that,
14 then, you know what, then something very funny
15 is going on in this case.
16 MR. DANDAR: Don't make statements
17 accusing me of misconduct unless you know.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, are you saying that
19 you didn't know at the time we took
20 Mr. Young's deposition that he had executed an
21 affidavit in the Wollersheim case? Are you
22 saying you didn't know that?
23 MR. DANDAR: That's right.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Are you saying you ??
25 well, you know, Mr. Prince ??
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1 MR. DANDAR: That is absolutely right.
2 MR. WEINBERG: You know what? Mr. Prince
3 said in his deposition when he was in that
4 hotel room with Mr. Young, when they were
5 apparently doing this, that he was
6 communicating with you, that's what he said.
7 MR. DANDAR: On this case.
8 MR. WEINBERG: No, but you know what ??
9 MR. DANDAR: All right. Stop. Come on.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, is it absolutely ??
11 MR. DANDAR: You're wearing me out and
12 I'm sure the deponent is getting worn out.
13 MR. WEINBERG: It is unbelievable for you
14 to make a statement like that.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q. Do you remember the question, Mr. Young?
17 A. No.
18 MR. WEINBERG: How can we have any
19 confidence that we've been ??
20 MR. DANDAR: I hate to ask you this.
21 MR. WEINBERG: ?? given in the discovery
22 in this case, if you don't know that your
23 so?called expert did a what, a 20?page
24 affidavit in a case that he was paid for with
25 a lawyer that you have been communicating with
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1 for years.
2 MR. DANDAR: No ??
3 MR. WEINBERG: Who you sat with in a
4 deposition with Mr. Young three years ago.
5 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Stop.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q. Mr. Young, here's the question again,
8 because I think it's probably 30 pages before the
9 court reporter could find out where it is.
10 A. The question was ??
11 Q. Did the reorganization of all the
12 organizations and corporations of the Church of
13 Scientology, as stated by Mr. Hubbard on page 4 of
14 the Defendant's Exhibit 40, have anything to do
15 with bankrupting the mother church, the Church of
16 Scientology of California, so that Mr. Wollersheim
17 would not be able to collect on his suit that he
18 brought against that organization?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection that we had
20 before.
21 MR. DANDAR: Fine. Noted.
22 Q. If you know.
23 A. The reorganization itself, no. It was
24 just its own tactic.
25 Q. Okay.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Just think where we would
2 have been if you would have let him answer the
3 question before.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Think where we would have
5 been if you didn't ask such an improper
6 question.
7 Q. Now, what is squirreling in Scientology
8 lingo?
9 A. Squirreling is ??
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; lack of
11 foundation. Go ahead.
12 A. Squirreling is where you alter or change
13 the methodology, and it could be intentional or
14 accidental.
15 Q. Why would Scientologists want to change or
16 deviate from the tech of Scientology?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to form; lack
18 of foundation as well.
19 A. Some might think they can improve upon
20 it.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Of course, this has a lot
22 to do with the Lisa McPherson lawsuit, Ken,
23 right?
24 MR. DANDAR: It only has to do with your
25 cross?examination, which, right, has nothing
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1 to do with the Lisa McPherson case.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I wouldn't have had to
3 cross?examine Mr. Young if you hadn't have
4 called him as a so?called expert in this case.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg wanted you to talk about
7 your letter that you were ordered to write to
8 denounce Mr. Broeker while you were on the RPF.
9 Can you tell us what the RPF is?
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form
11 and objection because it's beyond the scope of
12 cross?examination.
13 A. RPF stands for rehabilitation project
14 force.
15 Q. And why were you on the RPF?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection; asks
17 for a narrative. Objection; beyond the scope
18 of cross?examination.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right. Let's change
20 tapes.
21 MR. WEINBERG: What, are we just going to
22 sort of do the direct again, Ken?
23 (Recess.)
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q. What is the RPF?
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1 A. Rehabilitation project force.
2 Q. Why were you in the RPF?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
4 scope.
5 MR. POLLI: Form.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Asks for a narrative.
7 Objection as to the form.
8 A. Put in the most succinct way, after the
9 power struggle, I was on the ?? sort of the short
10 end of the stick and so I got sent off to the RPF.
11 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike.
12 Q. What types of things were you ?? did you
13 do in the RPF?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
15 scope.
16 MR. TITUS: Objection to the form.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Please, Ken, this has
18 absolutely nothing to do with the Lisa
19 McPherson case. It has nothing to do with my
20 cross?examination.
21 MR. DANDAR: You referred to a Ms. ?? a
22 Pat Broeker letter that you insisted on him
23 talking about.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, you questioned him
25 about it.
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1 MR. DANDAR: No, no, please, no more.
2 Stop. Please. You've objected.
3 Q. What did you do on the RPF? What is
4 that? What do you do there?
5 A. It's ??
6 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection.
7 A. ?? 12 hours of hard labor and then in the
8 evening you study or undergo confessionals,
9 interrogations or do ethics conditions or ?? that's
10 seven days a week. I was on it for 16 months.
11 MR. TITUS: Move to strike; nonresponsive.
12 Q. Did Mr. Miscavige ever communicate to you
13 that you were disloyal or untrustworthy because you
14 took the wrong side in this takeover of
15 Scientology?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection;
17 outside the scope. Objection to form.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And how did he communicate to you?
20 A. He wrote to me that that was the reason I
21 was on the RPF.
22 Q. Because you took sides with Broeker versus
23 him?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did he communicate that you were declared
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1 apostate or unloyal to him and Scientology?
2 A. No.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
4 Q. What did he tell you or what did he
5 communicate to you?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Objection; beyond the
7 scope.
8 MR. TITUS: Objection.
9 A. Just that that was the reason why I was
10 on the RPF and basically he wished me well and
11 hoping I'd get through the program.
12 Q. And do you have any proof of that?
13 A. Well, he sent me a letter on it.
14 Q. Do you have that letter with you?
15 A. I gave it to you.
16 Q. I have the letter?
17 A. Yeah.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Gosh, Ken, I thought we had
19 asked Mr. Young for all the documents and you
20 said ?? and we gave him a subpoena and we got
21 squat, we got nothing, we got zero from
22 Mr. Young and Mrs. Young. So now you're going
23 to produce in redirect a document that I
24 didn't ask him about and you didn't ask him
25 about?
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1 MR. HERTZBERG: He may not if he doesn't
2 find it.
3 MR. DANDAR: I can't find what you're
4 talking about.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I'm encouraging you to go
6 on.
7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
8 A. It's a short typed letter.
9 Q. Is this it?
10 A. No.
11 Q. It's typed? I don't have it then. That's
12 the only one I have that's typed. I might have ??
13 MR. HERTZBERG: If any of those are
14 responsive to any of our discovery requests,
15 maybe you should share them with us.
16 MR. DANDAR: Well, I can tell you they
17 are not, so ??
18 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. Because I see all
19 those documents there.
20 MR. WEINBERG: If you see any Friends of
21 the Animal things in there, could you give it
22 to us?
23 MR. DANDAR: No furry creatures.
24 MR. WEINBERG: What about Minton's stuff,
25 would you give that to us?
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1 MR. HANES: Ken, do you want to mark
2 everything that you're showing him as you go
3 through there?
4 MR. DANDAR: I don't understand that.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q. Why were you given orders to disconnect
7 from Mr. Broeker?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
9 A. It was just part of my program to meet
10 certain requirements to graduate from the RPF.
11 Q. What was your understanding, if you didn't
12 write this letter, what the consequences would be?
13 MR. HANES: Object to the form.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
15 A. I wouldn't be able to get off the RPF.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg was asking you about
17 certain policy letters out of certain volumes of
18 either the Green Books or the Red Books. How many
19 volumes are in the Green Books, do you know?
20 A. There is one for each division. There's
21 eight.
22 Q. What about the Red Books?
23 A. Oh, I don't know how many volumes there
24 are on that last area, something like 13 volumes.
25 Q. Could you estimate how many pages are in
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1 each volume?
2 A. Current volumes, there might be ?? there
3 is several hundred pages per volume.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Maybe 400 and some volumes, there might be
6 500 pages.
7 Q. Do you know when HASI, if I pronounced
8 that correctly, was terminated?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Do you know what it is?
11 A. Hubbard Association of Scientologists
12 International.
13 Q. Now, Mr. Weinberg showed you some policies
14 about changing certain policies with blue pencil.
15 Do you remember that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Can that be done after Mr. Hubbard was
18 dead?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form,
20 and objection; lack of foundation.
21 A. According to their policy that they
22 issued, it's not supposed to be.
23 Q. You also said on cross?examination that
24 some Scientologists believe that you should not
25 seek psychiatric help and some do. Can you explain
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1 that answer?
2 A. I'm sorry. I'm a little tired. Can you
3 say that one again?
4 Q. You said on cross?examination that some
5 Scientologists believe that you should not seek
6 help from a psychiatrist and other Scientologists
7 do not have that prohibition. Can you explain
8 that?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.
10 MR. TITUS: Yeah, object to the form.
11 A. It just ?? it was my experience just over
12 21 years that there were people who believed that
13 they could and would be all right to see anywhere
14 from a school psychologist on to some form of
15 therapist, and even though there was ?? they would
16 be admonished not to do it, they would do it
17 anyway.
18 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike;
19 lack of foundation, hearsay and speculation.
20 Q. You said on cross that you previously had
21 the task of reauthenticating the Red or Green
22 Volumes. Do you recall that?
23 MR. WEINBERG: I don't.
24 A. No, I didn't say authenticate the volume,
25 no.
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1 Q. What did you have to authenticate?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
3 A. I might have been referring to when I was
4 authenticating certain issues in a different
5 lawsuit where there was copies of policies and
6 bulletins that had been submitted. This was in the
7 FACT Net case, and so I was trying to determine if
8 they were accurate copies compared against the
9 original issues.
10 Q. Since leaving Scientology in 1989, why
11 have you agreed to testify or be a consultant on
12 issues involving Scientology?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
14 MR. POLLI: Object to the form.
15 A. Primarily because I was asked.
16 MR. DANDAR: That's all I have.
17 MR. WEINBERG: I've got some recross.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'll object to any recross.
19 I don't think it's permitted. We only went
20 over the things that you talked about.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't think that's
22 correct, but whether you think it's permitted
23 or not, I'm going to ask it and a judge can
24 determine because of the circumstances that
25 we're in right now.
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1 RECROSS?EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q. Now, Mr. Young, Mr. Dandar asked you on
4 redirect whether you had ever testified in one of
5 these Scientology cases and you said yes. Is that
6 right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was in a hearing in the FACT Net
9 case, is that right?
10 A. I cited two instances, one while I was in
11 the Scientology organization and one outside, and
12 the one you're referring to is in the FACT Net
13 case.
14 Q. What I'm asking you about is since you
15 left Scientology and have been a witness for hire,
16 okay, you have testified once in court, is that
17 correct?
18 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form;
19 argumentative.
20 Q. Is that correct?
21 A. No, it's not.
22 Q. You testified once in court?
23 A. I've never been a witness for hire.
24 Q. So you've never been paid for your
25 testimony?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Now ?? but since you have been a witness
3 who has paid ?? well, strike that.
4 Since you left Scientology and have been
5 involved in all these cases, you've testified once
6 in court, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And that was in the FACT Net case, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was in a hearing in September
11 1995, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in that hearing it was made clear by
14 your lawyer that you were called as a fact witness,
15 right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Not as an expert witness, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar asked you about the cases
20 that you had worked in and been hired in. You're
21 not offended by the word hired, are you? You were
22 hired by various lawyers in various cases since you
23 left Scientology, correct?
24 A. I don't object to being hired as a
25 consultant, right.
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1 Q. You were hired, right?
2 A. Yes, I don't mind.
3 Q. And you were paid, right?
4 A. As a consultant, yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you named some cases that you
6 were involved in in which someone had sued
7 Scientology, right, or a Scientology organization,
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. But you forgot that you were also hired in
11 the Prewitt case that had sued CSI, correct? You
12 did a declaration in that case, didn't you?
13 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember
14 that case.
15 Q. Do you remember the Geertz case that sued
16 CSI that you are hired in and did a declaration in?
17 A. That's what we usually refer to as the
18 Fishman case. That was what I was referring to
19 even though he was the primary defendant.
20 Q. Right. But Geertz actually sued CSI,
21 correct?
22 A. I don't know about that. I was ?? I was
23 in response to the one that he was the defendant.
24 I did not participate in any other actions that he
25 undertook.
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1 Q. So if there is a declaration out there
2 with your name on it in either the Prewitt case or
3 the Geertz case, you would just stand to be
4 corrected?
5 A. As far as, you know, I was never retained
6 to work on the Geertz case with him as a plaintiff.
7 Q. Now, the Kisser case, were you involved in
8 that case? You were, weren't you?
9 A. I'm trying to remember if that was one of
10 the CAN cases that Mr. Leipold had asked me to
11 assist on. There were so many CAN cases.
12 Q. Just to refresh your recollection, I'm
13 going to show you an affidavit that you executed on
14 March 17th, 1995, in the Prewitt case, which was a
15 case that was filed against the Church of
16 Scientology International in England. Do you
17 remember that you did an affidavit in a case in
18 England, a declaration?
19 A. There was one overseas one. I don't
20 remember the name.
21 Q. Let me show you this. That's your
22 affidavit, right?
23 MR. DANDAR: Can you mark that as an
24 exhibit?
25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to mark it
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1 as an exhibit. I'm just using it ??
2 MR. DANDAR: Well, don't look it if he's
3 not going to mark it as an exhibit.
4 MR. WEINBERG: What are you talking
5 about?
6 MR. DANDAR: No, no, no.
7 MR. WEINBERG: You know the rule of
8 evidence where you can ??
9 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Where he doesn't have a
11 recollection and I use it to refresh his
12 recollection?
13 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, and you mark it as an
14 exhibit.
15 MR. WEINBERG: No, you don't.
16 MR. DANDAR: Well, you're not going to
17 ask him anything about it if you're not going
18 to mark it.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q. Well, is your recollection refreshed that
21 you executed ??
22 MR. DANDAR: No, don't answer the
23 question.
24 A. I didn't have a chance, sir. I'm sorry.
25 I was interrupted.
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1 Q. Okay. Fine. The record is what it is.
2 MR. DANDAR: It's amazing you don't want
3 to mark it as an exhibit. You want to show a
4 witness and not mark it as an exhibit? Try to
5 do that at trial.
6 MR. HANES: Objection. Move to strike
7 the extraneous comments.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q. The affidavits you did involving cases in
10 which you were being paid regarding Scientology
11 date back to 1993, is that right?
12 A. That sounds accurate.
13 Q. Most of the work that you have done
14 regarding Scientology has been with a small group
15 of lawyers that are involved in litigation against
16 Scientology since 1993, correct?
17 A. No. They were lawyers defending suits by
18 Scientology.
19 Q. And suits against Scientology, correct?
20 A. Mostly the defense.
21 Q. Well, we ?? and it's a small group of
22 lawyers; Ford Greene, Graham Berry, Dan Leipold are
23 the main ones, correct?
24 A. And Faegre Benson and the one in the Sally
25 Jessy Raphael show and Cahill Gordon in New York.
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1 They are hardly a small group. They are a major
2 First Amendment firm.
3 Q. How much money did you receive for the
4 stories that you wrote for the Elks and Orange
5 Coast, the three stories that you keep mentioning?
6 A. Oh, I don't remember. It would just be a
7 few hundred dollars for those. Could I just take a
8 break, please?
9 Q. I'm really about done. Can we just ?? can
10 we finish?
11 Now, you've never seen a mission from RTC
12 that had anything other than RTC personnel in it,
13 have you?
14 A. I'm sorry. What was the question?
15 Q. You were asked questions about missions.
16 THE WITNESS: You know, Mr. Rinder, I'd
17 really appreciate you not laughing. I am sick
18 and, you know, I really find that rude.
19 Q. And I ?? you know, with all deference ??
20 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break.
21 A. I am ?? I want to take a break.
22 Q. With all deference, I move to strike ??
23 A. I really need a break.
24 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, go ahead.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Take a break.
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1 THE WITNESS: You know, it's just
2 distracting.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I really don't have very
4 much left, so I'm trying to finish.
5 THE WITNESS: I know. I don't have much
6 left and I'm trying to finish too.
7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. Take a break.
8 (Recess.)
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q. I will repeat the question that I had
11 asked you when we took our break. You were asked
12 the question about missions, missions from RTC on
13 redirect. My question is you've never seen a
14 mission from RTC that had anything other than RTC
15 personnel in it, have you?
16 A. I don't know right now. I just have to
17 say I'm not familiar with ?? there seems to be one
18 but I can't remember right now. I'm sorry.
19 Q. Now, you were asked questions about the
20 Church of Scientology of California. You said
21 something about the Church of Scientology of
22 California being dominant. Do you remember saying
23 that?
24 A. I think so, yes.
25 Q. It was all over the world, wasn't it?
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1 A. The Church of Scientology of California?
2 Q. Uh?huh.
3 A. No. It was just in Los Angeles.
4 Q. Weren't there all sorts of churches that
5 were part of the Church of Scientology of
6 California?
7 A. Oh, right, in that sense of the word, yes.
8 Q. And that included, that organization, that
9 included the Guardian's Office worldwide, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It included churches in California and in
12 other states around the country, didn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, you were asked questions about
15 command lines and said that there was no
16 interaction with ?? I think you said something
17 about no interaction with the corporate structure.
18 Do you remember being asked questions about that?
19 A. It was more I think in the case of
20 independent of rather than no interaction. That's
21 what I meant to say.
22 Q. But just so it's clear, all churches as of
23 now and as of when you left the Church of
24 Scientology in the late '80s, all churches are
25 junior to CSI, Church of Scientology International,
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1 aren't they?
2 A. There is a couple I'm not sure of. I
3 think as you are intending the question, it's
4 probably true but I'm not sure of right now as far
5 as things like publications organization, but for
6 the purpose of your question of organizations that
7 deliver paid services, that would be true.
8 Q. Right. And all of those churches report
9 to CSI, which is, you've described, as the mother
10 church, right?
11 A. That's one of the things they report to.
12 They report to other echelons but they would report
13 to that as well.
14 Q. And they get orders from CSI, don't they?
15 A. Amongst other organizations, yes.
16 Q. And that is what a command line is, isn't
17 it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'm just about done. You said that the
20 concept of religious practice is only used
21 externally. Do you remember that? You said it
22 with regard to dealing with government agencies?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. But the fact of the matter is is that
25 we've established by going over the Phoenix
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1 lectures and other lectures, like The Hope of Man,
2 that Mr. Hubbard was speaking internally to
3 Scientologists about the religious practices of
4 Scientology long before you joined the church in
5 1968, '69, correct?
6 A. The phrase was used in that.
7 Q. So the answer is yes, right?
8 A. Partially. I mean ?? I didn't deny the
9 use of the ?? I'm sorry. In the Phoenix lectures,
10 is what was I trying to say.
11 Q. I apologize. You said something ?? you
12 were asked the question about faith and you made
13 some statement about faith not being part of
14 Scientology, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You're not suggesting that that is a
17 criteria, that is faith is a criteria of what is or
18 is not a religion, you're not saying that, are you?
19 A. I would consider it to be.
20 Q. Well, do ?? what part does faith play in
21 Buddhism?
22 A. Nobody has seen the Buddha, nobody knows
23 about atman, et cetera, and you have the faith that
24 you can attain it, and there is the faith in the
25 reincarnation.
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1 Q. It sounds pretty much like some of the
2 concepts that we had talked about the
3 Scientologists believe in, about the immortal
4 spirit, past lives, and those beliefs, doesn't it?
5 A. Except that faith is never used as the
6 criteria for that.
7 Q. So that's what disqualifies ?? well,
8 strike that.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions.
10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's the end of the
11 deposition.
12 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Thank you.
13 Subject to what we said before.
14 MR. DANDAR: That's my end of the
15 deposition.
16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Thank you.
17 THEREUPON, the Trial Testimony was
18 concluded at 3:22 p.m.
19 NOTE: The original and one copy of the
20 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by
21 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar.
22 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing
23 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled
24 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm
25 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard,
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 764
1 SIGNATURE PAGE
2 Volume V
3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the
4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on
5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the
6 following corrections, if any, should be made in
7 the transcript:
8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR
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18 Subject to the above corrections, if any,
19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing
20 Trial Testimony.
21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this
22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___.
23
24 ________________________________
25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA
4 COUNTY OF POLK
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby
7 certify that the witness named herein personally
8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn.
9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
10 12th day of February, 2000.
11
12
13
14 ________________________________
15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR
16 Notary Public ? State of Florida
17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA
3 COUNTY OF POLK
4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered
5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida
7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared
8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial
9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did
10 stenographically and electronically report the
11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the
12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript
13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic
14 notes and recordings thereof.
15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an
16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause,
17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party
18 connected with this litigation, nor am I
19 financially interested in the outcome of this
20 action.
21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at
22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida.
23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00
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