1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume IV
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24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25
530
1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609
5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602
9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602
15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265
21 Tampa, Florida 33602
22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Ms. Lara Cartwright Mr. Michael Rinder 24 Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) 25
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1 I N D E X
2 Volume IV
3 WITNESS PAGE
4 Called by the Defendant Church of Scientology Flag
5 Service Organization, Inc.:
6 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
7 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 533
8 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 626
9 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 627
10 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 628
11
12 EXHIBITS
13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 37..................... 544
14 Defendant's Exhibit No. 38..................... 552
15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 39..................... 573
16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 40..................... 581
17 Defendant's Exhibit No. 41..................... 587
18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 42..................... 599
19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 43..................... 610
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SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000
532
1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION
3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH,
5 Plaintiff,
6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235
7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume IV
12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the
13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral
14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the
15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes
16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil
17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before
18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional
19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary
20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at
21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference
22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 10, 2000.
23 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by
24 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector.
25
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1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were
2 had and taken:
3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness
4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly
5 sworn, continued to testify as follows:
6 CROSS?EXAMINATION
7 BY MR. WEINBERG:
8 Q. Mr. Young, this is a continuation of your
9 cross?examination and you understand you're still
10 under oath?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you speak to anyone last night with
13 regard to anything that had to do with your
14 testimony, and I'm not ?? I don't ?? I'm asking you
15 as expansive a question as there is. I mean
16 directly, indirectly, verbally, in writing,
17 Internet. So there is no confusion here, I'm
18 asking you whether you have had any dealings with
19 anyone with regard to your testimony, your cross,
20 whatever redirect there might be, any whatsoever?
21 A. Well, Stacy called Jesse and handed me the
22 phone. She said how is it going? I said it's
23 going okay but I can't talk about it. That was the
24 end of that.
25 Q. Anything else?
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1 A. No. Oh, I spoke to my friend in
2 Cincinnati that I'm staying with. She said the
3 same thing, how is it going? I said I can't talk
4 about it but otherwise it's going okay.
5 Q. So no communications with you at all,
6 directly, indirectly, from Mr. Dandar, anybody
7 working with Mr. Dandar, any person associated with
8 this case as to how you might ?? about your
9 testimony, what you might say, how you might phrase
10 your answers, any further answers, anything like
11 that?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Totally expansive question.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now, the ?? yesterday you testified, I
16 believe, when I asked you, that it was incorrect
17 that Mr. Hubbard had developed Scientology based on
18 his understanding of the traditions and beliefs of
19 other religions, including Buddhism. Do you recall
20 that I asked you that and that was your answer?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, the ?? of course, first of all, we
23 did look at the Phoenix lectures yesterday, do you
24 remember those?
25 A. A reprinted portion of ??
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1 Q. Well, probably one of the ?? you would
2 agree, because you did read or listen to the
3 Phoenix lectures, that those lectures themselves
4 incorporated some of the most fundamental tenets of
5 Scientology, including the axioms, correct?
6 A. True.
7 Q. He discussed the fundamental practices of
8 auditing, talked about the Scientology tech,
9 correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And he talked in length about what he
12 described were the origins, what he drew on from
13 other religions over history, correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, it's also correct, is it not, that if
16 there is ?? if there are any tapes that
17 Scientologists review or listen to, it would be a
18 combination of the Phoenix tapes and The Hope of
19 Man, those are the most ?? those are the most
20 important tapes that Hubbard did with regard to
21 Scientology, aren't they?
22 A. I suppose that's debatable but I ?? you
23 know, for the purpose of moving on, I will accept
24 whatever point you're going to make.
25 Q. All right. Now, you listened to both The
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1 Hope of Man tape and to the Phoenix lectures,
2 didn't you?
3 A. No, I did not.
4 Q. Which one didn't you listen to?
5 A. I've never heard The Hope of Man tape.
6 Q. Well, did you read The Hope of Man
7 transcript?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And did you read the Phoenix transcripts?
10 A. Yes, and heard the tapes and even made a
11 comparison of the difference between the transcript
12 and the tapes.
13 Q. And when did you do that?
14 A. Oh, this was ?? first was 19 ?? probably
15 1971, '72, on the first time I read it, and then a
16 year or two later I made the comparison.
17 Q. Now, you yourself, sir, have publicly
18 stated that Scientology had its roots in Buddhism
19 and Far Eastern religion, haven't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you did that while you were a member
22 of the Church of Scientology?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you did that in what, in a variety of
25 settings, didn't you?
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1 A. I'm sure I did.
2 Q. And you remember you were interviewed by
3 reporters and said that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you remember that amongst the ??
6 actually, there were articles in the newspaper
7 quoting you having said that, is that right?
8 A. There could well have been.
9 Q. Now, the command lines that you testified
10 about in your direct testimony, do you remember how
11 you talked about command lines?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Those command lines that you testified
14 about, those are the corporate lines in
15 Scientology, correct?
16 A. Well, there is both.
17 Q. I'm just saying that when you say
18 command ?? when Scientology talks about command
19 lines, when you talked about command lines, you're
20 talking about the command lines within the
21 corporate structure of Scientology between Flag and
22 the mother church, CSI, between CSI and RTC and the
23 like, correct, that's what you're talking about?
24 A. That was part of it. There is more.
25 Q. There was a corporate restructuring in
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1 1981, '82, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And RTC, as a result of that corporate
4 restructuring, the Religious Technology Center, was
5 placed at the top of the command line, was it not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And CSI, as the mother church, and we
8 talked about that yesterday, and other churches
9 were under RTC in the command line structure,
10 correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And as the chairman of the board of RTC,
13 David Miscavige is currently the seniormost church
14 official in the command lines of Scientology,
15 correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The authority that an individual has in a
18 Scientology organization, like CSI, RTC, Flag,
19 comes from that person's post or position in the
20 org, is that correct?
21 A. Give me that one again, please.
22 Q. The authority that an individual has in a
23 Scientology organization, like CSI or RTC or Flag
24 Service Organization here in Clearwater, comes from
25 that person's post or position in that particular
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1 org, correct?
2 A. Yes and no.
3 Q. Well, you say yes and no.
4 A. Well, it does and then there is sometimes
5 when it doesn't.
6 Q. Well, when it doesn't come in a particular
7 organization ?? let's take Flag, for instance. Who
8 is in charge of Flag?
9 A. That would be the commanding officer.
10 Q. All right. And that person is in charge
11 of Flag because of his or her post, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. It doesn't make one bit of
14 difference whether that person's rank is petty
15 officer number two, like you, or some other
16 position, that person, because of his or her post,
17 is in charge of the Flag org, correct?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Now, even though once you joined the Sea
20 Org your rank as a petty officer number two, or
21 whatever it was, class two, was low, you could and
22 did on occasion give orders to others with a higher
23 rank because of your post, correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And in fact, you testified in the
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1 deposition that I took a month or so ago that on
2 occasion you gave orders to people to WDC, watch
3 dog committee members, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. They were Sea Org members, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And at the time you were a lower rank than
8 them, correct?
9 A. Could have been. The point was it was
10 immaterial.
11 Q. Because of your post?
12 A. Position.
13 Q. Position in the org ?? which org was that,
14 ASI?
15 A. ASI, and the position of ASI was ?? the
16 organization was considered senior to it, so it
17 didn't matter what post I had, it was just the
18 position of the organization.
19 Q. Now, the ??
20 (Discussion off the record.)
21 Q. All right. I'm going to have to work off
22 my copy here. I apologize.
23 You know that, what was it, in '81 or '82
24 that RTC was actually incorporated?
25 A. 1981.
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1 Q. '81? And there were articles of
2 incorporation and bylaws, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the purpose as set forth in those
5 documents of RTC was to ensure and maintain the
6 purity and integrity of the religion of Scientology
7 as it had been developed by Mr. Hubbard, is that
8 right?
9 A. That's what the document says.
10 Q. Right. And ?? I mean you've reviewed
11 these documents, haven't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And as a ?? and in addition, in this same
14 period of time the service marks and trademarks of
15 Scientology were seated to or transferred to or
16 given to RTC, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in addition to those, some of the
19 upper level materials that had not been publicly
20 published were ceded to or given to RTC, correct?
21 A. That's what I understand.
22 Q. So that as this process developed, RTC was
23 created to protect the integrity and purity of the
24 religion and had ?? and was the possessor or owner
25 of some of the most fundamental religious materials
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1 of the religion, correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Well, you don't consider the marks and the
4 upper level materials to be some of the most
5 fundamental ecclesiastical materials of
6 Scientology?
7 A. No, that wasn't the point. You said the
8 reason why it was created.
9 Q. Okay. So you disagree that RTC was
10 created as the protector of the religion?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. Even though that's what all of
13 the documents say, that's the point you're making,
14 right?
15 A. That's the point why I say ??
16 Q. I see. I see. I see.
17 A. Why I say it's a fraud.
18 Q. Okay. Now, but, of course, those
19 arguments were made to the IRS prior to its
20 decision in 1993 and the IRS said ?? rejected every
21 one of those arguments that you're just making,
22 that RTC and the corporate structure was a fraud,
23 didn't it?
24 A. I don't know. They never spoke to me.
25 Q. Well, you read the materials. You know
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1 that, don't you?
2 A. I don't know what they ?? what I saw was
3 the 1023, which is equivalent to responses to
4 interrogatories. I don't know what else was really
5 asked or what was provided.
6 Q. Now, you know that the ?? by the
7 reorganization, by the incorporation of RTC, that
8 RTC was given the power and the responsibility in
9 protecting the religion to send missions into any
10 other Scientology organization, you know that,
11 don't you?
12 A. Yes. I don't know if the mission part is
13 stated in the bylaws.
14 Q. Well, we'll show you.
15 A. I don't remember that but it's certainly
16 stated in policy.
17 Q. We'll show you that. Just so it's
18 absolutely clear, in your direct testimony you
19 talked about missions, Sea Org missions, and you
20 showed a dictionary that defined a mission as a Sea
21 Org mission, but the fact of the matter is is that
22 as of 1981, 1982, the very incorporating documents
23 and bylaws of the RTC authorized the RTC itself and
24 CSI, for that matter, to send missions into various
25 organizations to protect the religion, correct?
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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Now, let me show you what we'll mark as ??
3 let me show you what we'll mark as the next
4 exhibit, which ??
5 MR. WEINBERG: Might it be 37? Good
6 guess.
7 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 37 was marked for
8 identification.)
9 Q. ?? which is the ?? bear with me for one
10 second. ?? which is the bylaws, says revised
11 bylaws of RTC, Religious Technology Center, and
12 they are dated June 15th, 1982. All right?
13 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit 37?
14 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 37.
15 Q. Now, I want to refer you to some
16 paragraphs, particularly page 5 under Purposes.
17 MR. DANDAR: Let me interrupt just a
18 minute. Are you stipulating I have a running
19 objection to anything in reference to this
20 document since it's not properly identified or
21 authenticated, okay?
22 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
23 Q. Now, you do recognize this as the bylaws?
24 A. I wouldn't authenticate this.
25 Q. No, you wouldn't think of that, I mean but
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1 when you were in ASI back in 1982, you certainly
2 reviewed the various bylaws and articles that were
3 ?? of incorporation that were being worked on by
4 others at ASI at the time, correct?
5 A. Sometimes.
6 Q. But so it's absolutely clear, you didn't
7 ?? you weren't part of the team that worked on
8 these documents though, right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. There were others at ASI that worked on
11 these documents, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And there were a number of lawyers that
14 they worked with to put together these documents as
15 well, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And those people would certainly be much
18 more qualified to speak as to the ?? well, those
19 would be the experts, if there are any, on the
20 corporate structure of Scientology, right?
21 A. That's debatable as to if they told the
22 truth.
23 Q. Well, you're certainly no expert as to the
24 corporate structure of Scientology, are you?
25 A. Well, no, but if an organization is
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1 created, for example, to ?? for the purpose of ??
2 Q. I move to strike. I asked you a simple
3 question. I said are you ?? I said you're not an
4 expert on the corporate structure of Scientology
5 and you said no. Now, if Mr. Dandar, in redirect,
6 wants to ask you further, fine, but the answer is
7 no.
8 Now ??
9 MR. DANDAR: So you don't want him to
10 explain your answer then?
11 MR. WEINBERG: That's not an explanation.
12 Obviously, Ken, it's very apparent that
13 regardless of what he said, somebody sat down
14 with him yesterday, and so the idea is is he's
15 going to make speeches today. Well, we're not
16 going to have that.
17 MR. DANDAR: Why is that obvious?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Because that's very
19 obvious.
20 MR. DANDAR: Tell me why.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Because it's very obvious
22 what he's done. Ever since we've been here
23 this morning he's started to make speeches.
24 A. Excuse me?
25 MR. WEINBERG: And not answering
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1 questions.
2 MR. DANDAR: Well, the record will
3 reflect that you're totally wrong.
4 BY MR. WEINBERG:
5 Q. Now, if you go to page 5 of the document,
6 sir, if you go to page 5 of the document, under
7 Purposes, you'll agree with me that the bylaws of
8 RTC say that the corporation shall espouse,
9 present ??
10 A. Where are you?
11 Q. Page 5 at the top, where it says Purposes:
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. The corporation shall espouse, present,
14 propagate, practice, ensure and maintain the purity
15 and integrity of the religion of Scientology as the
16 same has been developed and may further be
17 developed by L. Ron Hubbard, et cetera, correct?
18 A. That's what the document says.
19 Q. Now, if you go to page 6 at the top, just
20 so it's clear, this ?? I mean you do understand
21 that the RTC has articles of incorporation and
22 bylaws?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you understand that the other
25 Scientology organizations, like Flag and CSI, have
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1 articles of incorporations and bylaws, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You also understand that there are license
4 agreements with regard to the marks and some of the
5 religious technology between RTC and CSI, correct?
6 A. Well, the marks and I wouldn't call it
7 religious technology but however it might be said
8 in the corporate papers. There are agreements,
9 licensing agreements.
10 Q. And there are what, in effect, are
11 sublicense agreements between CSI and other
12 Churches of Scientology as to the same, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, if you go to page 6 at the top, am I
15 correct that the bylaws says: The church, this is
16 the church ?? what is defined as the RTC in this
17 document, as the protector of the religion of
18 Scientology shall manage, use and make available
19 for use by other church organizations, the
20 substantial body of confidential advance technology
21 ("Advanced Technology") which is part of the
22 scriptures and those service marks and trademarks
23 which are used in connection with the religion of
24 Scientology.
25 That's what it says, isn't it?
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1 A. That's what it says.
2 Q. And this confidential advanced technology,
3 that is these ?? that is what has been described
4 colloquially as some of the upper level materials
5 that there has been so much litigation about over
6 the last few years, correct?
7 A. That's part of it, yes.
8 Q. Now, if you go to page ?? you can't see
9 the page but it's page 8, where it says Creed, the
10 bylaws incorporate the Scientology creed that we
11 talked about yesterday, correct?
12 A. I'll stipulate the document says what it
13 says.
14 Q. Okay. Now, if you go to page 29, Section
15 3.
16 A. I'm just having trouble with these. They
17 are not numbered and the page is cut off.
18 Q. Do you see it?
19 A. Section 3, Religious Orders?
20 Q. Yeah. And that is a paragraph that
21 describes the establishment by RTC, in this case
22 the church, of establishing and maintaining
23 religious orders and those religious orders would
24 include the Sea Org, correct?
25 A. I have no idea. Religious orders appears
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1 nowhere in Mr. Hubbard's writings.
2 Q. Okay. So you don't know what they're
3 talking about there?
4 A. Well, it's not in anything of
5 Mr. Hubbard's. The phrase never appears religious
6 order, so it's a legal term.
7 Q. You don't know what a religious order is
8 then, right?
9 A. I don't see a definition here.
10 Q. So you don't know that the Jesuits are a
11 religious order?
12 A. Well, the Jesuits are a religious order,
13 but I'm just saying it's not within the Scientology
14 material.
15 Q. Right. I mean you are supposedly an
16 expert on something, I mean you would ?? something
17 that has to do with religion at least and you would
18 certainly acknowledge that in the history of
19 religion, there ?? with regard to any number of
20 religions, there have been religious orders of
21 people that have dedicated themselves to the
22 religion, correct?
23 A. Yes. That wasn't my point.
24 Q. I want to make sure. And that just as you
25 have Buddhist monks or Christian friars or Catholic
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1 Jesuits, there are ?? it is certainly consistent
2 with the way in which religions have gone about
3 their business over the centuries to have orders,
4 fraternal orders, religious orders, of those that
5 are most dedicated to the religion, correct?
6 A. Bona fide religions have done that.
7 Q. So, basically, what you're saying is is
8 that if somebody that has become an apostate and
9 has supported themselves as an apostate over the
10 past nine or ten years of your life, that in order
11 to continue to get money from people that are
12 trying to profit off of Scientology, you'll say
13 whatever you have to say with regard to the
14 religion, correct?
15 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative. Is
16 that a question or a speech? Object to the
17 form.
18 MR. WEINBERG: I'll withdraw the
19 question.
20 Q. Now, if you go to ?? now, let me show you
21 and have marked ??
22 A. Are we done with this document?
23 Q. At the moment, yes. ?? the license ?? let
24 me have marked as the next exhibit, which is 38, a
25 license agreement, the license agreement between
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1 RTC and CSI dated May 18th, 1982.
2 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 38 was marked for
3 identification.)
4 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have a copy, Ken.
5 Yeah, here's one right here.
6 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
7 Q. All right. Now, you didn't work on this
8 agreement, did you?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But you were aware of it, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And if you will look at page 1 of the
13 agreement, the first page, it further recites that
14 RTC was formed as the protector of the religion and
15 to maintain the purity and ethical use of the
16 religion, correct?
17 A. First of all, I don't know that this is
18 the document that it says it purports to be and the
19 document speaks for itself.
20 Q. All right. Well, are you going to act as
21 a lawyer today too or are you just going to answer
22 my questions?
23 A. Well, you asked me before to verify the
24 document. I can't verify the document and you're
25 reading it, so it just says what it says.
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1 Q. Well, let's look at the back. We're going
2 to go over what it says. Okay? I'm going to be
3 able to establish rather easily that these
4 documents are what they are. Okay?
5 A. That's fine.
6 Q. All right. So I'm not too concerned about
7 that.
8 MR. DANDAR: But I will object until that
9 happens in court.
10 MR. WEINBERG: You can object all you
11 want to.
12 MR. DANDAR: That's right.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I mean you can object all
14 you want to but, unfortunately, you're the one
15 that accelerated this process, Ken. Okay?
16 MR. DANDAR: No, no, no.
17 MR. WEINBERG: No, you accelerated this
18 process.
19 MR. DANDAR: Are we going to argue? Just
20 ask questions.
21 MR. WEINBERG: You accelerated the
22 process, just so the record is clear.
23 MR. DANDAR: Do you know how much editing
24 I'm going to have to charge you for for your
25 speeches to edit this out?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: It's kind of tough to have
2 gotten a document authenticated in court when
3 we do the trial testimony six months before
4 the trial. Okay?
5 MR. DANDAR: Well, this could have been
6 certified by somebody with the authority of
7 the Church of Scientology and ??
8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, get out of here.
9 MR. DANDAR: ?? appropriately stamped.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Stop, just stop.
11 MR. DANDAR: This could have been printed
12 from a printer this morning.
13 MR. WEINBERG: That's what we did, and
14 we, you know, we got the signatures and, you
15 know, we did all that just this morning. We
16 just sort of threw this document together.
17 Now, of course, these documents are on file
18 with the IRS and have been looked at by people
19 over the years.
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, they should have a
21 Bates number on them.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Have been looked at by,
23 you know, I mean ??
24 MR. DANDAR: Filed by the IRS, so where
25 is the IRS stamp? You know what I'm saying?
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1 He's not authenticating documents.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I know what you're saying.
3 What you're saying is you're trying to disrupt
4 the deposition and what you're doing ?? no,
5 you are, Ken, and what you're doing is just
6 absurd, but, you know, however long it takes,
7 we'll do it.
8 BY MR. WEINBERG:
9 Q. Now, look at this document, please, sir.
10 MR. DANDAR: My objection is noted.
11 Q. Now, it says in the recitals that the RTC
12 was formed to be a protector of the religion of
13 Scientology and to maintain the purity and ethical
14 use of the philosophy and technology of the
15 religion.
16 THE COURT REPORTER: I can't take that
17 down so fast. Sorry.
18 Q. It says, does it not, sir, that RTC was
19 formed to be the protector of the religion of
20 Scientology and to maintain the purity and ethical
21 use of the philosophy and technology of the
22 religion, including the services and the products
23 associated with the religion, and to own the
24 service marks and the trademarks associated with
25 those services and products, is that correct?
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1 A. Yes sir.
2 Q. That's what it says?
3 A. That's what it says.
4 Q. And in fact, you learned that that was the
5 case, that RTC did own the marks, the service marks
6 and the trademarks and some of the upper level
7 materials, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And you know from the time that ?? until
10 you left the church that the RTC was responsible
11 for protecting the integrity of those marks and the
12 way that those marks and Scientology was applied
13 around the world, you know that, correct?
14 A. I missed the front end of that. You said
15 from a time to?
16 Q. From the time that this was incorporated
17 in 1981, 1982, until you left in 1989, you know
18 that, in fact, RTC was responsible for protecting
19 the use of those marks and the use of the materials
20 around the world, you know that they were?
21 A. No, that wasn't true.
22 Q. Okay. Now, the ?? if you go to the next
23 page, 2, subparagraph B: CSI is the Mother
24 Church ??
25 A. Excuse me. What page are you on?
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1 Q. 2, subparagraph B: CSI is the Mother
2 Church and the highest ecclesiastical authority of
3 the religion of Scientology, and has been and is
4 committed and dedicated to the advancement and
5 dissemination of the religion of Scientology in
6 accordance with the Scientology Scriptures, through
7 the organizations of the religion of Scientology,
8 including Churches and Missions, that are under its
9 ecclesiastical control and supervision, that's what
10 it says, isn't it?
11 A. That's what it says.
12 MR. DANDAR: Same objection.
13 MR. WEINBERG: You have a continuing
14 objection.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to just keep
17 interrupting?
18 MR. DANDAR: No. I'd be like you then. I
19 don't want to do that. Right, continuing
20 objection. Go ahead.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q. And CSI is the mother church, isn't it?
23 A. That's its current designation, yes.
24 Q. That's been its designation since it was
25 created in 1981, '82, correct?
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1 A. That was its designation, that's what I
2 just said.
3 Q. Now, C: RTC is the owner by assignment
4 from L. Ron Hubbard of certain service marks and
5 trademark, diagnostic spiritual healing technology,
6 Scientology applied religious philosophy, and it
7 lists other things.
8 And that was true, wasn't it, RTC was the
9 owner of that?
10 A. I lost you. You seemed to break up your
11 reading. I didn't follow that. Where were you?
12 Q. C. It is true that RTC was the owner of
13 those things that are set forth there?
14 A. I'm not going to contest it, the document.
15 Q. Now, if you go to page 4, under Grant ?? I
16 mean you profess to be an expert in Scientology,
17 right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. All right. So amongst that which you
20 supposedly know something about is the corporate
21 structure of Scientology, right?
22 A. No. That's ?? corporate is not part of
23 Scientology.
24 Q. Okay. So you don't really know anything
25 about the corporate part of Scientology?
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1 A. I didn't say that.
2 Q. You know, by the way, that the Catholic
3 church has a corporate structure, you know that,
4 don't you?
5 A. I would assume so.
6 Q. You know that the diocese are incorporated
7 in this country?
8 A. I would assume so.
9 Q. You know that there is a hierarchical
10 structure with, in essence, the Vatican on the top
11 and all these corporations underneath it, you
12 understand that, don't you?
13 A. I'm sure it is.
14 Q. And you know that they have a body of laws
15 called the canon laws that relate to the way in
16 which the church runs, you know that, don't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Scientology is set up in a similar way,
19 isn't it?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, on page 4, Grant, RT ?? where it says
22 Grant, it says: RTC grants to CSI ??
23 A. Excuse me. Which paragraph again?
24 Q. Where it says Grant.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. RTC grants to CSI the right and license to
2 use each and all of the marks in connection with
3 services pertaining to the religion of Scientology
4 rendered by CSI in all countries of this planet
5 where RTC has or acquires rights in the marks.
6 Now, that's what ?? that was true, you
7 recall that when you were at ASI and at the church
8 from '82 to '89, that, in fact, RTC had granted the
9 right and the license of CSI as the mother church
10 to use certain marks and technology, correct?
11 A. I didn't see the grant but I assume ??
12 assume it would be there.
13 Q. Now, if you go to page 7, subparagraph B,
14 it's correct, is it not, that RTC had the right to
15 prescribe standards and specifications with regard
16 to proper use and display of the marks, correct?
17 A. That's what the document says.
18 Q. But that was the practice too, you
19 understood that, that that's what happens while you
20 were there, that RTC was the one that set the
21 standards, correct?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Well, you understand that CSI and its
24 related organizations using the marks were
25 prohibited from engaging in any activity that was
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1 in conflict or hostile to the Scientology ?? to
2 Scientology, you understood that they couldn't do
3 that, correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that you understood that if they did
6 do that, that RTC had the power and the authority
7 to stop it?
8 A. Amongst other sections.
9 Q. Now, let's look at D in this license
10 agreement. And you would acknowledge that a
11 license agreement is a legal document, right, is a
12 legal agreement?
13 A. Maybe, if ?? unless you held a gun to my
14 head and had me sign it, you know.
15 Q. Are you suggesting that somebody held a
16 gun to ?? let's see who signed this.
17 A. No, no. I just ?? my point is you
18 asked ??
19 Q. Well, you know who Heber Jentzsch is,
20 right?
21 A. Of course.
22 Q. Right. And you know who ?? can you
23 recognize the signature of the then president of
24 the RTC?
25 A. No.
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1 Q. Do you know who the president of RTC was
2 in 1982?
3 A. No.
4 Q. But you're not suggesting that anybody
5 held a gun to Heber's head, right?
6 A. That wasn't your questions.
7 Q. Stephen Marlowe, you know who Stephen
8 Marlowe is?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. All right. Now, let's go to D on page 7
11 and let's look at this closely. This license
12 agreement says: RTC shall have the right to
13 monitor all operations of CSI and its related
14 organizations, inspect all books, records and
15 facilities pertaining to the use of the marks, and
16 then it goes on. And in fact, that was the
17 situation, that RTC could come in at any time in
18 any of the Scientology organizations and inspect,
19 correct?
20 A. Amongst other organizations, yes.
21 Q. Now, let's go to E: RTC may, if it ever
22 deems it necessary or advisable, send a corrective
23 mission to any organization authorized to use the
24 marks, to correct any deviation from the standards,
25 specifications or guidelines of this agreement, and
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1 then it goes on to say CSI shall reimburse them for
2 it.
3 That was the case, that's what the
4 document says and that was, in fact, the case,
5 wasn't it?
6 A. That what's the document says and that was
7 not the case.
8 Q. That was not the case. So RTC didn't have
9 the right to send a mission? I thought you said a
10 few minutes ago that they had a right to send a
11 corrective mission in to any organization?
12 A. I said amongst other things. The Sea Org
13 was a different echelon.
14 Q. I'm not talking about the Sea Org right
15 now. I'm talking about RTC.
16 A. I'm just answering your question. I said
17 they were amongst that and there was other
18 prongs ??
19 Q. Well, answer my question as to RTC. Did
20 RTC have the right to send in a corrective mission
21 at any time in any org in Scientology to correct a
22 situation?
23 A. That's what the document says.
24 Q. And that was, in fact, the case, wasn't
25 it?
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1 A. No.
2 Q. Now, that's the case today, isn't it?
3 A. They send in missions but you won't let me
4 answer my question so I can only respond to the
5 document.
6 Q. That's the case today, isn't it, that the
7 RTC at any time in any place can send a corrective
8 mission into any Scientology organization?
9 A. I'm sure it is.
10 Q. And that was the fact in 1995, wasn't it,
11 that the RTC at any time in any place could send a
12 corrective mission into any organization?
13 A. I'm sure it was.
14 Q. Now, when the word ?? you know what a
15 corrective mission is, don't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Well, tell the jury what a corrective
18 mission is.
19 A. A narrative?
20 Q. What's a corrective mission? I mean ??
21 well, strike that.
22 A corrective mission is a group of people
23 that an org would send in to take action with
24 regard to an incident, correct?
25 A. To fix or correct something.
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1 Q. Right. So when it says mission, mission
2 is just a descriptive term essentially for one or
3 more people that an org would send somewhere else
4 for a task, right?
5 A. Derived from the naval term sending out a
6 mission.
7 Q. Right. And in this case ?? I mean in this
8 case, in this document ?? I mean ?? well, strike
9 that.
10 You realize that the Catholic church
11 provides for sending missions from the Vatican to
12 its diocese or churches around the world to take
13 control with certain incidents, you know that they
14 have that ability?
15 A. I don't know that.
16 Q. You don't know that?
17 A. I don't know what they send out. I'm not
18 ready to testify about the Catholic church.
19 Q. Well, but you are supposedly an expert,
20 correct?
21 A. Not on the Catholic church, no.
22 Q. Well, but you seem to find the fact that
23 Scientology has created organizations that are
24 incorporated to be, you know, something strange or
25 different or evil.
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1 A. I didn't say that.
2 Q. Well, that's the suggestion though, isn't
3 it?
4 A. No.
5 Q. But the truth of the matter is, is that
6 you know that many churches in the United States,
7 Baptist churches, Catholic churches, other
8 Christian denominations, are incorporated for legal
9 purposes and legal reasons, you know that, don't
10 you?
11 A. I'm sure they are.
12 Q. And you know that many religions are
13 organized, not just the Catholic church, but many
14 other religions are organized in a hierarchical
15 fashion, you know that, don't you?
16 A. I'm sure they are.
17 Q. And you know that many religions,
18 including the Catholic church, have provisions that
19 allow them to protect the integrity of the religion
20 and the scripture, you understand that, don't you?
21 A. I don't know that.
22 Q. Well, you understand that ?? and we talked
23 a little bit about it yesterday, that ?? do you
24 understand that in religions over the years, not
25 just the Catholic church, but other churches,
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1 excommunicate members, do you understand that
2 churches have that ability?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And that oftentimes people that are ??
5 that have violated the tenets of the church,
6 whatever the church is, whether it's the Catholic
7 church or the Christian church or a fundamentalist
8 church, are subject to ecclesiastical laws that
9 would lead to, in some cases, excommunication, you
10 understand that, don't you?
11 A. Some might. I understand the concept.
12 Q. Well, you ?? I mean you understand that
13 religions, many religions have their own legal
14 systems, internal legal systems, ecclesiastical
15 legal systems, you understand that, don't you?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that many religions, just like the
18 Catholic church, essentially have a system of
19 ethics, internal ecclesiastical ethics, you
20 understand that, don't you?
21 A. Religions and churches have that. I'm not
22 arguing with that.
23 Q. Right. And so that ?? I mean, you know,
24 in this country, in this country, where we have
25 First Amendment protections, you know, our
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1 government stays out of the internal ecclesiastical
2 affairs of religions, you understand that, don't
3 you?
4 A. As long as it doesn't break the law.
5 Q. Well, I mean, for example, I mean let's
6 just take the discrimination laws. We don't have
7 women priests in Catholic churches, right? They
8 are excluded from becoming priests. And yet ?? and
9 we have strong laws in this country that protect
10 women's rights, the rights of minorities, but they
11 are, because they are a religion, they are
12 protected from those discrimination laws, aren't
13 they? You know that, don't you?
14 MR. DANDAR: Objection; calls for a legal
15 opinion.
16 A. I was just ??
17 MR. WEINBERG: Go ahead. You've made
18 your ??
19 MR. DANDAR: It is not a question.
20 MR. WEINBERG: It is a question.
21 Q. You understand that, don't you?
22 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
23 A. I can only respond to what I know
24 publicly. I'm not familiar with the laws of a
25 church versus court rulings on discrimination, I
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1 just know that, no, there are no women priests and
2 I know there are discrimination laws, but I can't
3 go into the interfacing of the law on that.
4 Q. But you are here supposedly as an expert
5 and ??
6 A. About Scientology. You keep trying to
7 change it.
8 Q. No, but, you know what, sir,
9 Scientology ?? your position is is that Scientology
10 isn't a religion?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And your position is at odds with what the
13 United States government has determined, the State
14 Department, Labor Department, IRS, with regard to
15 Scientology in various courts, right?
16 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
17 Q. Right?
18 A. There you go.
19 Q. Right?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. And your position is at odds with many
22 religious scholars that have concluded otherwise,
23 that Scientology is a religion, right?
24 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
25 Q. Correct?
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1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Okay. And the only way that one can
3 determine, if it were relevant, whether or not
4 Scientology is or is not a religion is to look at
5 religions and what religion is, correct?
6 A. That would be one of the ways.
7 Q. Right. So that if the point is somehow
8 that the way in which Scientology has been set up
9 corporately is in question, then one could look at
10 other religions and see how they do it, right, as
11 an expert?
12 A. If an attorney ?? you're talking legal
13 terms now.
14 Q. I'm talking expert terms. So that if
15 Scientology is set up, for example, like the
16 Catholic church in a corporate structure, one might
17 say, well, that ?? I understand now why.
18 A. Understand what?
19 Q. Strike that. That just wasn't a good
20 question. I mean do you understand that ??
21 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, can you just restrain
22 yourself, please? Okay. Restrain yourself.
23 MR. DANDAR: This is torturous.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No. Restrain yourself.
25 MR. DANDAR: Restrain myself?
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to do this in
2 court, do you want to go huh, huh, and make
3 all these noises?
4 MR. DANDAR: Well, you just went ??
5 MR. WEINBERG: I cleared my ??
6 MR. DANDAR: That was part of your
7 question.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Stop.
9 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
10 MR. WEINBERG: No. You made a lot of
11 noise yesterday about people smirking and
12 doing this and you're sitting there going huh,
13 huh, and making noise, and rolling your eyes.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, the microphone will
15 pick up if I said huh, huh. Okay?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Everybody in the room can
17 hear it.
18 MR. DANDAR: Did you hear that? That's
19 clearing my throat.
20 MR. WEINBERG: You weren't clearing your
21 throat, and you know it. And don't ??
22 MR. DANDAR: Please, go. You're wasting
23 time.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not. You're
25 wasting time.
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1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q. Now, the point is what else can an expert
3 look at other than the body of the field that he's
4 supposedly an expert in, correct?
5 A. True.
6 Q. All right. But you haven't?
7 A. Haven't what?
8 Q. You haven't studied the body of the field
9 of religion, have you?
10 A. I have studied the body of Scientology and
11 have been active in that body extensively.
12 Q. But what you haven't done, and you can't
13 do, is study other religions and compare them to
14 Scientology, you haven't done that, have you?
15 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form.
16 Q. Have you?
17 A. I've responded to my studies earlier,
18 what qualifies me.
19 Q. Well, just answer my question. You
20 haven't done that, have you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You have done that?
23 A. To the extent that I have, yes.
24 Q. No, but you haven't because you don't ??
25 because you haven't studied Buddhism or Catholicism
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1 or all these other religions that I've asked you
2 about, correct?
3 A. Are you going to accuse me or ask me?
4 Q. I just asked you.
5 A. We went through this. I went through my
6 studies of what I had read and my studies of
7 philosophy and my graduate studies and that's on
8 the record.
9 Q. Let's go to the next license agreement,
10 which is the CSI church license agreement. I will
11 mark my copy and we'll substitute one that doesn't
12 have highlights on it.
13 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 39 was marked for
14 identification.)
15 MR. DANDAR: This is 39 and what is it?
16 MR. WEINBERG: It's the license agreement
17 between CSI and, in this case, Flag. Okay?
18 Dated May 26, 1982, signed by Heber Jentzsch
19 for the Church of Scientology International
20 and I can't read who signed it for Flag.
21 MR. DANDAR: Same running objection,
22 right?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
24 A. Just to clarify, it's Flag Service
25 Organization.
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1 Q. Right. I want to, if I could take you
2 through it real quickly, you know that there was a
3 license agreement between the mother church and
4 various other churches, including Flag Service
5 Organization, correct?
6 A. I'm sure there was.
7 Q. Okay. And I want to show you all of the
8 recitations before but I want to specifically refer
9 you to page 11 ?? I want to refer you to page 5, 6
10 and 7, which is ?? which are the very similar
11 provisions as in the RTC license agreement with
12 CSI, and it has the control and supervision
13 provisions and, in particular, it has ?? this is
14 Control and Supervision and it has these two
15 paragraphs that we saw in the last one and this one
16 on page 6. This agreement between CSI and Flag
17 Service Organization says: CSI and RTC shall have
18 the right to monitor all operations of church ?? in
19 this case church is Flag ?? with respect to the
20 marks, inspect all books, records and facilities
21 pertaining to the use of the marks, et cetera.
22 You understand that that's what the
23 document says but you also understand and saw that
24 between '82 and '89, when you left, that CSI and
25 RTC had the right to monitor the operations of
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1 Flag, among other churches, correct?
2 A. I would say power, right.
3 Q. Power, that's even better. Now, and then
4 E says: CSI may, if it ever deems it necessary or
5 advisable, send a corrective mission to church,
6 which in this case is Flag, just so you know
7 that ?? church is Flag, right? CSI may, if it ever
8 deems it necessary or advisable, send a corrective
9 mission to church to correct any deviation from the
10 standards, specifications or guidelines of this
11 agreement and church shall reimburse CSI. So that
12 that's what the document says, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that, in fact, was the case, that CSI
15 could send a corrective mission to Flag with regard
16 to any situation regarding the religion, correct?
17 A. Well, with regard to anything that was
18 happening at Flag.
19 Q. Right. Just as RTC could send a
20 corrective mission, correct?
21 A. They could. This seems to be sort of a
22 break point. Could we pause for a moment?
23 Q. Yeah, if you want.
24 A. Is that a good one?
25 Q. Yeah, that's okay.
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1 A. I'd like to do one very soon ??
2 Q. Well, I've got ?? well, I mean whatever
3 you want.
4 A. Well, you sort of seem to be between
5 documents.
6 Q. That's fine.
7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. Take a break.
8 (Recess.)
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q. Now, once it was announced that the
11 corporate structure of the religion of Scientology
12 had been reorganized, there was a lot of fanfare,
13 my word, about this change, correct?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Well, I'm talking about within
16 Scientology.
17 A. No.
18 Q. The change itself was embraced by
19 Mr. Hubbard within Scientology, was it not?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Well, you don't know that Mr. Hubbard
22 issued either policies or reports or writings to
23 Scientology staff and public endorsing the change
24 that gave RTC the powers to protect the purity of
25 the religion and gave CSI the power as the mother
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1 church?
2 A. There was some alluding to it. I just
3 don't know the extent of it.
4 Q. Well, you are the expert on Scientology,
5 right? Right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And one of the things that you have
8 testified about is that your belief in some way
9 that this corporate reorganization was not what it
10 was made out to be, right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You've also testified that the words and
13 writings of Mr. Hubbard within Scientology are not
14 to be changed or challenged, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. That ?? and you've acknowledged, although
17 you quarrel with whether or not when ?? whether or
18 not the writings of Mr. Hubbard should be called
19 scripture because you're here against Scientology,
20 you acknowledge that it is the writings of
21 Mr. Hubbard that are the fundamental basis of
22 Scientology, correct?
23 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
24 Q. Is that right?
25 A. I can't respond when you say I'm here to
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1 be against Scientology, so I can't respond to the
2 question as put.
3 Q. Okay. Fine. Well, you're not here as our
4 witness, are you?
5 A. No.
6 Q. No, no. And you have certainly, in the
7 last nine years, not embraced your former religion?
8 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
9 Q. Correct?
10 A. I'll go with that as far as embracing, no.
11 Q. Okay. Now, the ?? you would acknowledge
12 that it is the writings of Mr. Hubbard that embody
13 the belief system of Scientology?
14 A. I said yesterday I have trouble with
15 belief system but embody the policies which guide
16 the organization, I have no qualms with that.
17 Q. It's not just the policies, it's the
18 technology with regard to the fundamental tenets of
19 Scientology, right?
20 A. How it operates, I'm agreeing policies and
21 the red technologies. I don't ?? I don't question
22 that.
23 Q. So that when Mr. Hubbard spoke or wrote,
24 for somebody committed to Scientology, that was a
25 very important statement or writing, correct?
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1 A. If it came from him.
2 Q. Correct. That's what I'm saying, if it
3 came from him, is that right?
4 A. Yes, because I also authored stuff by him,
5 so there is that question. If it really came from
6 him, then it would be from him.
7 Q. Or I suppose one could say the same thing
8 about Jack Kennedy. I mean Jack Kennedy and many
9 presidents are pretty busy and they have speech
10 writers, but when they actually utter the speech or
11 give the speech, they embrace what they say,
12 correct?
13 A. That would be correct.
14 Q. So you're not suggesting that there is
15 anything improper about assistance being given to
16 Mr. Hubbard with regard to the preparation of some
17 of the materials that were issued by him, correct?
18 A. Not at all, providing he sees and approves
19 it, then it does become his.
20 Q. All right. Now, you remember Ron's
21 Journal 38?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. What is Ron's Journal 38?
24 A. It was one of a ?? well, you'd have to set
25 the basis for what Ron's Journals are.
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1 Q. Well, what are Ron's Journals?
2 A. They are occasional issues by him on a
3 variety of topics which were different from the
4 technology and the policies, which were more like
5 briefings on subjects, overviews, could take any
6 variety of subjects, maybe end of the year
7 speculation. So they were sort of a freewheeling
8 ?? usually a freewheeling subject.
9 Q. And they were written by him or issued by
10 him, is that right?
11 A. Issued by him. I don't know how many were
12 written by him but they were accepted as coming
13 from him.
14 Q. And you accepted them as coming from him?
15 A. Until a certain point.
16 Q. And they were for both staff members and
17 public members, weren't they?
18 A. They were what we call BPI, which was
19 broad public issue, which meant public and staff.
20 Q. Okay. Now, let me ?? and what do you
21 remember Ron's Journal Number 38 as?
22 A. That was a wide?ranging one on a variety
23 of topics and RTC was mentioned in that one. I
24 remember because we helped to compile it.
25 Q. You mean the restructuring of ?? the
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1 creation of RTC?
2 A. No. Helped provide information for Number
3 38.
4 Q. No. I understand that. I said ?? when
5 you said RTC was mentioned in that one, you're
6 talking about the establishment and the empowerment
7 of RTC was discussed in Ron's Journal Number 38?
8 A. In some words. I don't remember the exact
9 words but it was an endorsement and recognition of
10 RTC in 38.
11 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 40 was marked for
12 identification.)
13 Q. All right. Well, let me show you as
14 Exhibit 40 Ron's Journal Number 38 issued ?? you
15 remember that it was issued on December 31st, 1983,
16 right at the end of the year?
17 A. Yes.
18 MR. DANDAR: Can you give me that date
19 again? Do you have another copy?
20 MR. WEINBERG: New Year's Eve of 1983.
21 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Do I have another copy?
23 Yeah, here you go.
24 MR. DANDAR: Thanks.
25 MR. DANDAR: This is Number 40, correct.
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1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
2 BY MR. WEINBERG:
3 Q. You see that quite a bit of the beginning
4 of Ron's Journal Number 38 has to do with RTC,
5 correct?
6 A. On my copy it starts, I think, on page 2.
7 Q. Right. And on the fourth ?? really third
8 major paragraph from the bottom it says ?? it
9 starts what I will be doing. Do you see that?
10 A. Which page?
11 Q. Page 2, the one you referred to, third
12 paragraph, third big paragraph from the bottom, it
13 starts what I will be doing.
14 A. Oh, that's way up. I'm sorry. I see the
15 paragraph.
16 Q. Okay. And the second sentence of that
17 says: As you may know, a long time ago I made a
18 free gift of all trademarks of Dianetics and
19 Scientology to an independent nonprofit
20 corporation. This was the Religious Technology
21 Center. I no longer own these marks. And RTC
22 controls the licensing and use of all trademarks.
23 And here is how it is keeping Scientology working.
24 Okay, operator, please light up to RTC summary.
25 And then he proceeds to describe what RTC
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1 is doing and what their responsibilities are,
2 correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, if you go to page 4, the ?? at the
5 top, the second major paragraph where it says a
6 full reorganization ??
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. This is under International. Not only
9 were the Scientology churches and corporations
10 reorganized in the United States, they were
11 reorganized internationally as well in the early
12 '80s, is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Hubbard here says: A
15 full reorganization of corporate status of all
16 Scientology churches and corporations, and he's
17 speaking internationally now, was successfully
18 concluded a year ago. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that was the case, wasn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Now, if you go to page 14 ?? are you on
23 14?
24 A. I'm getting there.
25 Q. You remember in this journal, Mr. Hubbard
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1 talked about some of the problems that had arisen
2 in the Guardian's Office and other places that
3 resulted in the reorganization of Scientology, you
4 remember that, don't you?
5 A. I'd have to go back and remind myself, but
6 probably, in its 14 pages.
7 Q. All right. Now, if you look at page 14,
8 the paragraph that begins BUT, it's a big paragraph
9 and BUT is in full caps, do you see that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Correct? And Mr. Hubbard says: BUT, can
12 a power push against the church happen again?
13 Well, only if you fail to turn your back on
14 squirrels.
15 And squirrels are people that are against
16 Scientology, right?
17 A. No, that's not actually the technical
18 definition in that way.
19 Q. Well, it's an apostate?
20 A. No.
21 Q. A person trying to take over, use the tech
22 on their own?
23 A. That can be but that's not ?? somebody can
24 be squirreling, turning it into a verb, inside the
25 organization, not be outside the organization.
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1 Q. Right. Somebody could, for example, steal
2 the marks and try to start ?? and try to use them?
3 A. That would be by their definition an
4 example of a squirrel.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. But I just meant there is other
7 definitions.
8 Q. And, in fact, there were problems in the
9 '80s with a group of people that actually stole the
10 marks and then tried to use them, correct?
11 A. I believe that's right.
12 Q. All right. Now, in this paragraph: BUT,
13 can a power push against the church happen again?
14 Well, only if you fail to turn your back on
15 squirrels and demand on?policy actions and HCOB
16 tech ?? that's the Red Book, right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. ?? in all executives and if you support
19 only those who work to keep Scientology working.
20 My earnest advice is only deal with or associate
21 with those organizations licensed by RTC and the
22 auditors in good standing with the church.
23 Now, it was very clear, was it not, from
24 Ron's Journal Number 38 that he was endorsing the
25 reorganization of Scientology, including the
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1 establishment of RTC and CSI?
2 A. The document says what it says.
3 Q. But there was no ?? you were there, you
4 were at ASI at the time. There was no dispute
5 within Scientology that Mr. Hubbard, in 1981, 1982,
6 1983, endorsed and endorsed very publicly the
7 reorganization of Scientology?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, if you go ?? you know what executive
10 directives are? What are executive directives?
11 A. Those were what we call Blue on White
12 issues.
13 Q. I thought it was Blue on Blue?
14 A. Okay. Issued by Hubbard.
15 Q. Am I right or wrong, is it Blue on Blue or
16 Blue on White?
17 A. You could find them actually coming out
18 both ways.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. That were from Hubbard which gave specific
21 orders, usually as it is ?? that's why it was named
22 a directive, on things to be implemented, differing
23 from the journal, which was like a briefing.
24 Q. Do you remember that there were
25 executive ?? and these were more for staff members?
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1 A. Some LRH EDs, as they were called, would
2 become BPI, broad public issue. Some were meant
3 internally. Most of the other LRH EDs were ?? went
4 to public too.
5 Q. And do you remember ED 58?
6 A. Not by number.
7 Q. Did you read the EDs?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You read all the EDs?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you remember that there were one or
12 more EDs that were issued following the
13 reorganization of Scientology setting forth and
14 endorsing this change?
15 A. There was something issued. I don't
16 remember specifically what it said.
17 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 41 was marked for
18 identification.)
19 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as Number
20 41, which is an executive directive dated May 19th,
21 1982, ED 58 WDC, entitled Scientology and Dianetics
22 Services, Use of the Trademarks. I ask you to look
23 at it and identify this as one of the EDs that you
24 read.
25 A. This is not an LRH ED.
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1 Q. Now, this is issued by the watch dog
2 committee, right?
3 A. Yes. I just ?? I thought you were
4 referring to an LRH ED.
5 Q. This is a ?? I mean did you read these EDs
6 as well, the watch dog committee EDs?
7 A. A lot of them.
8 Q. And do you remember this one?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you remember that ?? and the watch dog
11 committee, by the way, was a committee in CSI?
12 A. See, that's sort of like the 300?pound
13 gorilla. It was where it was. It was at the
14 management level, the most senior management.
15 Q. May 18th, 1982, it was in CSI, right?
16 A. Fine.
17 Q. Now, this document, this ED also sets
18 forth in some detail the reorganization with regard
19 to the authority and power of RTC and CSI, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. Now, you're familiar with the IG
22 network bulletin?
23 A. I've seen them.
24 Q. And what are they?
25 A. Those were, when they were first issued,
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1 were meant to be briefings about the inspector
2 general network, which was a section of RTC.
3 Q. Okay. And there were actually signs
4 posted throughout various Scientology churches and
5 organizations around the world advising both public
6 and staff members of the IG and RTC and where to
7 report a whole series of incidents, including what
8 would be referred to as suppressive acts, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And those ?? you've seen those
11 bulletins ?? what I call bulletins. You've seen in
12 various ?? in almost every Scientology publication
13 there will be a ?? some sort of an ad or a box that
14 will apprise the reader of the IG network at RTC,
15 correct?
16 A. Over what period of time?
17 Q. Well, you tell me. You're the expert.
18 A. They finally became dominant, as you've
19 described it, but it took a while. It was probably
20 not until maybe '84, '85 that it became more
21 dominant.
22 Q. Certainly by 1995?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, you testified on direct about Flag
25 Order 3079 that was purportedly issued by
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1 Mr. Hubbard immediately before his death in January
2 1986, right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, Mr. Hubbard died on January 24th,
5 1986, is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this Flag Order was supposedly issued
8 five days before his death on January 19th, '86.
9 A. Dated, not issued.
10 Q. Supposedly dated five days before his
11 death, right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this Flag ?? what are Flag Orders, by
14 the way?
15 A. They originated back on the ship Apollo.
16 They were orders to the crew. The Apollo was
17 called the Flagship or Flag, so they were a type of
18 order that was issued.
19 Q. Yeah.
20 A. And as later on extended to just Sea
21 Organizations and Sea Organizations would get Flag
22 Orders, so it just became wider than just the
23 original Apollo.
24 Q. Now, this Flag Order 30 ?? was it 303879?
25 3879, supposedly or on its face designated Pat
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1 Broeker, B?r?o?e?k?e?r, as the first loyal officer,
2 right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It, in essence, created a new Sea Org
5 rank, correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then it designated, supposedly, his
8 wife, Mr. Broeker's wife, as like the second loyal
9 officer, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if it were to be believed, then upon
12 Mr. Hubbard's death Mr. Broeker from that Flag
13 Order would have had the highest rank in the Sea
14 Org as the first loyal officer, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Mrs. Broeker would have had the second
17 highest rank as the second loyal officer, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, neither Mr. Broeker or Mrs. Broeker
20 had any kind of post in any of the new Scientology
21 organizations, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Now, you then identified in your testimony
24 a April 18th, 1998 Flag Order that canceled 3879,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And that cancellation Flag Order was
3 issued by David Miscavige as chairman of the board,
4 Religious Technology Center, is that right, sir?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And what that cancellation said, in
7 essence, was that Flag Order 3879 that had
8 supposedly designated Mr. and Mrs. Broeker as
9 first ?? as loyal officers, was a fraud, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that Mr. Hubbard hadn't actually
12 issued them, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Or written them, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, the fact is, sir, that I then asked
17 you in what was a small effort at getting some what
18 we call voir dire when those documents were
19 presented to you, whether Mr. Hubbard wrote 3879.
20 Do you remember I asked you that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you remember that you hesitated to
23 answer, right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And then you said I don't know, right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. The fact is that you, back in ?? while you
3 were in ?? still in the Church of Scientology, you,
4 Mr. Young, believed that Pat Broeker wrote 3879 and
5 not Mr. Hubbard, right?
6 A. No.
7 Q. You believed that, didn't you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Didn't you believe that Mr. Broeker had
10 forged it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And didn't you conclude that Mr. Hubbard
13 had not written it?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And didn't you believe that it just wasn't
16 Mr. Hubbard's style?
17 A. No. It's very close to his writing style.
18 Q. All right. And the fact is you actually
19 wrote ?? by the way, you were a good friend of
20 Mr. Broeker's right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And in fact, you, to this day, and I think
23 you said so on your direct testimony, attribute
24 your ultimate demise in the Church of Scientology
25 to the fact that you had associated yourself with
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1 Mr. Broeker, right?
2 A. Not ultimate but ??
3 Q. Close, right?
4 A. Pretty close, yes.
5 Q. All right. And, as it turns out,
6 Mr. Prince had associated himself with Mr. Broeker,
7 right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And he attributes his demise in the Church
10 of Scientology to that, right?
11 A. I don't know that.
12 Q. Well, he hadn't ever told you that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You've never commiserated about that?
15 A. No, we've not discussed that.
16 Q. Now, you, you actually wrote Mr. Broeker a
17 letter telling him that you didn't believe that
18 Mr. Hubbard had written that and that he had
19 written it, right?
20 A. I was ?? it was a letter I was ordered to
21 write when I was on the RPF to Mr. Broeker as part
22 of disconnection.
23 Q. I see. That's a technical term,
24 disconnection, right?
25 A. Right. It was ?? and it was dated just a
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1 few days after the cancellation, so I can even date
2 roughly when I wrote him, was a few days after the
3 cancellation came out.
4 Q. Well, when did you write him?
5 A. It was a point shortly ?? soon after that
6 was issued. I remember the issuance of that
7 because Annie Broeker arrived on the RPF and we got
8 a copy of the cancellation on the same day and ??
9 or maybe I ?? somewhere in there, and then I was
10 also to write him and disconnect.
11 Q. All right. And so your recollection is,
12 and your sworn testimony is, is that this letter ??
13 do you have a copy of this letter that you wrote
14 him?
15 A. No.
16 Q. This letter that you wrote Mr. Broeker
17 telling him that you didn't believe that
18 Mr. Hubbard had made him the first loyal officer,
19 you say that was done almost simultaneously with
20 Mr. Miscavige's cancellation of Flag Order 3879,
21 right?
22 A. I wouldn't stand by it. I just ?? I
23 remember it because, you know, I was on the RPF and
24 there was a stress there and I know I had to
25 disconnect at some point and I remember her
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1 arriving ?? I remember the issue arriving and it
2 was a shock to all of us because the original issue
3 had been so wide promulgated, and I remember Annie
4 arriving, because I knew her very well. So I don't
5 remember the sequences. I know definitely that she
6 arrived and the issue arrived on the very same day,
7 I know that for sure. When exactly along that
8 period with me and Mr. Broeker while I was on the
9 RPF, I don't remember the date exactly.
10 Q. Well, it certainly wouldn't have been
11 three months later, it would have been right around
12 the time it was issued, right?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Well, that's your recollection?
15 A. The best I can recall.
16 Q. Somebody stood there with a gun to your
17 head?
18 A. No, but it was ??
19 Q. Well, no, I'm asking you, did somebody
20 stand there with a gun to your head?
21 A. Not literally, no.
22 Q. Okay. The ?? you had long before decided
23 that you were going to leave Scientology, hadn't
24 you?
25 A. Before when?
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1 Q. Before you wrote this letter that you say
2 you wrote to Mr. Broeker telling him that it was a
3 fraud?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Now, who, by the way, made you write this
6 letter?
7 A. I don't recall. We had a program to do.
8 You're given a program, a series of steps and mine
9 came in that I had to, at one point, disconnect
10 from Broeker, and the best ?? and per policy, the
11 best way to do that was to write a letter. I don't
12 remember if it was the ?? what we called the MAA,
13 the master at arms.
14 Q. I'm just asking you a name. Who was the
15 one that told you to do this?
16 A. I don't recall.
17 Q. So, basically, what you're saying is that
18 you wrote a letter regarding Scientology lines that
19 was a lie?
20 A. Scientology lines?
21 Q. Well, you wrote a letter, yeah, with
22 regard to Scientology lines of authority, right?
23 A. Oh, lines of authority. Okay.
24 Q. You wrote a ?? I mean just so it's clear
25 here, it's your testimony that you wrote a letter
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1 with regard to Scientology lines of authority that
2 you now say under oath is a lie?
3 A. No, just that I was forced to do.
4 Q. No, but ?? well, do you agree with what
5 you said in the letter?
6 A. What was I ?? what part was I saying in
7 the letter that you're referring to?
8 Q. Well, didn't you tell Mr. Broeker in the
9 letter that you believed that he wrote Flag Order
10 3879 and not Mr. Hubbard?
11 A. I probably did.
12 Q. And was that true, is that what you
13 believed?
14 A. You have to believe that in order to move
15 on ??
16 Q. No. I'm asking you what you believed, is
17 that what you believed?
18 A. I had to believe it, sir. This is ?? I
19 had ?? the only way I can respond. To get off the
20 RPF, I had to believe it, so I had to make it part
21 of my belief. At that point, I incorporated and I
22 make it, as they say, make it your own.
23 Q. As you sit here today, was what you wrote
24 in that letter true or false?
25 A. No, it wasn't true.
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1 Q. So you believed that Mr. Hubbard issued or
2 wrote Flag Order 3879?
3 A. I don't ?? to this day I don't know. All
4 I know is what I was being told I had to believe at
5 that time.
6 Q. Do you believe today that Mr. Broeker did
7 it?
8 A. I don't really know.
9 Q. Whatever you did back in whenever it was
10 with regard to this letter that you wrote, it was
11 done in your own self?interest, you would agree
12 with that, right?
13 A. Self?survival.
14 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 42 was marked for
15 identification.)
16 Q. Now, let's mark a copy of 42 and ask you
17 if this is the memo or letter that you wrote in
18 your own hand to Mr. Broeker. Is it, sir?
19 A. Looks like it. Can I reread it?
20 Q. Sure. Is that your handwriting?
21 A. Yes, this is my handwriting.
22 Q. No one wrote this out for you, did they?
23 A. No. I don't understand why I wrote copy
24 on it. Maybe I ?? if I had to rewrite it or if
25 I ?? I guess ??
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1 Q. I assume you sent the original to Pat
2 Broeker, right?
3 A. Well, no, I had to give it to somebody
4 else who was going to deliver it.
5 Q. Everything on that page is written by you,
6 isn't it?
7 A. It's my handwriting.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. It even says that I don't personally know
10 if it actually happened that way.
11 Q. Well, in your own handwriting you did say,
12 and I quote: And while ?? this is to Pat Broeker,
13 right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And while I cannot personally prove it
16 right now, I suspect the last piece ?? and you're
17 talking about Flag Order 3879, right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. ?? I suspect the last piece, where you and
20 Annie became LOs ?? that means loyal officers,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. ?? was written by you. I thought so when
24 it first came out, never told anyone. I thought so
25 because ? remember ? I know LRH's style too. It
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1 missed. It does not sound right.
2 Now, you wrote that, right?
3 A. Yes. Could I just ask a question for
4 clarification, because we're talking about the date
5 of this versus the FO.
6 Q. Well, you know, you've just ?? were you
7 going to ask me when the FO was canceling it?
8 A. Just to be reminded, yeah.
9 Q. All right. Let's have that back.
10 A. The date of the cancellation.
11 Q. The fact of the matter is, as shown by
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 9, the cancellation order
13 issued by the chairman of the board, Religious
14 Technology Center, David Miscavige, was April 18th,
15 1988, some three months before this letter that you
16 wrote, correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So that it didn't just come in one day and
19 you wrote this letter, as you had first recalled,
20 did it?
21 A. No, this had to be done later.
22 Q. Now, you, in your testimony, you said ??
23 in your direct testimony, you said that you based
24 your current knowledge ?? well, strike that.
25 You have not interviewed in any systematic
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1 way since you left Scientology either staff members
2 or members of the public with regard to their
3 beliefs of Scientology, have you?
4 A. When you say public, you mean public
5 Scientologists?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. The answer is no.
8 Q. Right. And you haven't gone out and done
9 a survey of current staff members or a survey of
10 current public members of Scientology to try to
11 draw some conclusion as to the sincerity of their
12 beliefs or anything like that, have you?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you agree that you have not done any
15 Scientology training or auditing since you left,
16 right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you have not been in any kind of
19 formal way Churches of Scientology since you left?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. And that you ?? and to the extent that you
22 have any current knowledge as to what
23 Scientologists ?? how the various Churches of
24 Scientology run policy?wise ?? I mean from a
25 corporate perspective or what Scientologists think
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1 or believe is largely based on your review of
2 magazines?
3 A. That ?? there is some compound in there.
4 If you can, break it up for me.
5 Q. Okay. You said in your testimony that,
6 essentially, the only thing that you have done
7 since 1989, whenever it was that you left
8 Scientology, to keep current on Scientology is to
9 read magazines, right?
10 A. And ?? magazines and policies, you know.
11 Q. But I'm talking about the way in which the
12 various Churches of Scientology operate since you
13 have left. Essentially, all you have done to
14 remain current, that is something ?? things that
15 have occurred since 1989 is to read magazines,
16 right?
17 A. No, that's not true, and it's evident by
18 other testimony, how I've read policies and I've
19 submitted declarations citing policies and I've
20 gone through those current volumes and more than
21 magazines, certainly. That's been shown by my
22 other testimonies and actions.
23 Q. And to the extent that you have ?? but,
24 primarily, I think you said, that you were relying
25 on magazines to keep current, right?
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1 A. We were talking about the Sea Organization
2 and certain aspects and certain activities in which
3 I said you could learn that from the magazines, but
4 there is other ways to ?? other things that I read.
5 Q. Now, the Free Winds or the High Winds
6 magazine, which you testified about, right?
7 A. Those are two different magazines.
8 Q. The High Winds I'm talking about, the High
9 Winds magazine, that's the magazine with regard to
10 the Sea Organization?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That is written ?? the articles in that
13 magazine are written by whom?
14 A. By Sea Org members.
15 Q. Church members, right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Not by L. Ron Hubbard?
18 A. He doesn't write directly. His articles
19 appear but he doesn't write for it.
20 Q. Obviously he doesn't write for it now,
21 right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He hasn't written for it certainly since
24 he died, right?
25 A. That's correct.
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1 Q. But the magazine, from time to time, will
2 republish earlier writings or works of Mr. Hubbard,
3 right?
4 A. I didn't catch the verb but it's an always
5 will reprint something by him.
6 Q. Okay. The writings of church members in
7 the High Winds magazine are certainly not
8 fundamental Scientology technology that would be
9 considered by Scientologists as scripture, is it?
10 A. Not in the same category as policies and
11 HCOBs, no.
12 Q. Magazines don't set or establish policy of
13 the church, do they?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Now ??
16 THE WITNESS: Could I just take a prostate
17 break?
18 MR. MOXON: Did you say apostate break?
19 THE WITNESS: Prostate, you know, as in
20 get your prostate checked.
21 (Recess.)
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q. Now, you testified in direct that policy
24 of Mr. Hubbard was never supposed to be changed,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you made sort of a big deal about that
3 with regard to a couple of documents that you were
4 comparing, correct?
5 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
6 Q. Do you remember?
7 A. Well, yes.
8 Q. All right. Now, you are familiar with the
9 Green Volumes, right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what are the names of the Green
12 Volumes?
13 A. Well, it's the organization course.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Organization Executive Course Volumes and
16 it's just ??
17 Q. It sets forth the policy of the way in
18 which the Church of Scientology is run, right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Well, what does it set forth?
21 A. The volumes are compilations and bindings,
22 you know, as in just a series of short stories that
23 have appeared elsewhere. It's just bound volumes.
24 The volume does not do it. The individual policy
25 as issued is what stands, not a recompilation. A
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1 recompilation is just a recompilation.
2 Q. Yeah, but the Red Volumes discuss the
3 technology of Scientology, right?
4 A. They are compilations of the bulletins.
5 Q. Just listen to me for a second. Okay?
6 The Red Volumes have ?? is a collection of writings
7 that have to do with the fundamental technology of
8 Scientology, right?
9 A. That's what their intention is, yes.
10 Q. What Scientologists would say, you know,
11 is the ecclesiastical part, the religious part of
12 Scientology, right?
13 A. That's what they are supposed to be, yes.
14 Q. Okay. And the Green Volumes are a
15 compilation of writings with regard to the policy,
16 sort of the administrative policy of how
17 Scientology organizations run or are to be run,
18 right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, you ?? you're not an expert and don't
21 profess to be on either ?? on the policy, are you?
22 A. Which policies? I could be.
23 Q. Well, I'm talking about ?? look, we've
24 established that you're not an expert on the
25 technology, on the Red Volumes, correct?
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1 A. I can testify to it. When the point you
2 cite, I said there is people who are more expert
3 than I am.
4 Q. And you're not here today proffering
5 yourself as an expert on the Green Volumes either,
6 are you?
7 A. They're part of the body of Scientology, I
8 can testify about them. I don't know how to break
9 it down for you.
10 Q. So then, if that's the case, you must be
11 familiar with the HCO policy letter of March 1965,
12 Technical and Policy Distributions, you are
13 familiar with that, right?
14 A. I remember reading that one.
15 Q. All right. And what does that one ?? do
16 you remember what that one has to do with changing
17 policy?
18 A. I would have to look at it to remind
19 myself.
20 Q. Well, do you remember that Mr. Hubbard, in
21 this policy letter, said and wrote ?? and what he
22 said and wrote is the gospel of Scientology, right?
23 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
24 Q. Is that right?
25 A. If that is what he said or wrote. That's
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1 the point that's at contention.
2 Q. Okay. Well, you're not contending that
3 something that is dated in 1965 that appears in the
4 Green Volumes is not something that was adopted by
5 Mr. Hubbard, are you?
6 A. I'm saying things that have been
7 republished have been changed from what Mr. Hubbard
8 wrote, and if it's ?? that we have to compare it to
9 the originals.
10 Q. All right. So are you ?? do you remember,
11 do you know what blue pencil policy is?
12 A. Blue pencil is where you change policy
13 with a blue pencil, if that's what you're referring
14 to.
15 Q. And do you remember that Mr. Hubbard had a
16 policy about blue pencil?
17 A. He issued revisions of policy. I'm
18 familiar with that.
19 Q. And do you know that ?? do you remember
20 that Mr. Hubbard has a policy that says that when
21 rereleasing an old policy letter, always blue
22 pencil out everything gone old and contradicted by
23 later policy letters, you can still salvage a lot
24 that still applies, a surprising amount, but try to
25 cut out the contradictions with our modern policy
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1 where they exist, do you remember that he said
2 that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And the reason for that, of course, is is
5 that a policy that was issued in 1960 about the way
6 in which a car should be parked in the Saint
7 Hill ?? at Saint Hill, might not be applicable in
8 1999 because the car doesn't exist and maybe the
9 building doesn't exist and the lot doesn't exist
10 anymore, right?
11 A. Quite the contrary. In fact, he issued
12 policies stating specifically in keeping
13 Scientology working, never state policy is old and
14 not used anymore.
15 Q. All right. So you disagree with the ??
16 well, but anything that Hubbard writes is not to be
17 changed though, right?
18 A. This ?? see, this is the big debatable
19 point on this thing when people were issuing the
20 changes without his knowledge or authority.
21 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 43 was marked for
22 identification.)
23 Q. Well ?? so, let me just mark here as the
24 next exhibit Exhibit 43, and this is a ?? it's a
25 copy of the technical and policy distribution
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1 policy that I referred to, and ??
2 MR. DANDAR: What was the date?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it was first issued
4 in 1965 and revised on July 7th, 1983.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Hubbard was alive in July of
6 1983, right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I'll refer you to page ??
9 MR. DANDAR: But what copyright volume
10 does it come out of?
11 MR. WEINBERG: I have no idea. I'll give
12 you a copy of it.
13 Q. I'll refer you to the third page from the
14 end which has the blue pencil policy.
15 MR. DANDAR: Do you have an extra one?
16 Thank you. This is 43? Copyrighted 1991?
17 MR. WEINBERG: No.
18 MR. DANDAR: That's what your second page
19 says.
20 MR. WEINBERG: You know, Ken, the policy
21 was ?? was revised as of July 7th, 1983.
22 MR. DANDAR: It comes out of the '91
23 books that were copyrighted in '91.
24 MR. WEINBERG: And the point you're
25 trying to make is what?
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1 MR. DANDAR: I just want you to say that
2 that's why you have page two here, correct, to
3 show us what version this is, what the
4 publication date is.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Not version. This is when
6 this particular volume ?? Mr. Young said it
7 was a compilation of volumes. The thing
8 you're reading was revised on July 7th, 1983.
9 MR. DANDAR: As published in 1991.
10 MR. WEINBERG: As compiled, as Mr. Young
11 made it very clear, in the Green Volumes.
12 MR. DANDAR: Right.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Whenever.
14 MR. DANDAR: As compiled, right. What
15 page are you referring him to?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Third from the end.
17 A. Third what?
18 Q. Third page from the end.
19 MR. DANDAR: Page 1296?
20 Q. Here, can I just refer you? Yeah, mine
21 doesn't have pages on it is the reason I didn't
22 have it. Right here.
23 A. 1296 on mine.
24 Q. Page 1296. Do you see the paragraph that
25 starts when rereleasing?
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You remember that policy, right?
3 A. I remember this policy but I'm not going
4 to certainly verify that this is an actual accurate
5 rendition of the original policy.
6 Q. Yeah, but you are an expert supposedly in
7 Scientology and you will not acknowledge that
8 Mr. Hubbard, dating back in 1965, had a policy that
9 provided for and required blue pencilling out the
10 old in order to be modern?
11 A. I don't deny that. I just question
12 whether or not this is an accurate one since we
13 were in the business of changing policy without
14 people knowing about it.
15 Q. And the reason you question it is because
16 you have spent the last nine years of your life as
17 an apostate trying to profit off of that, right?
18 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
19 Q. Isn't that right?
20 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative.
21 Q. Isn't that right?
22 MR. WEINBERG: You've made your objection.
23 Q. Isn't that right?
24 A. I gave you documents showing how these
25 have been changed without staff knowing about it.
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1 Q. Now ??
2 A. There is an easy way. Just all we have to
3 do is find the original policy.
4 Q. Fine. Now, we're not exactly talking
5 about something particularly controversial here,
6 whether or not ?? whether or not Mr. Hubbard
7 authorized the blue pencilling of old policy. That
8 ain't exactly ?? that is not exactly a
9 controversial thing, is it?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. All right, fine. Now, Mr. Young, based on
12 your assertions supposedly as an expert that
13 nothing can ever change, can you tell me the role
14 of the chairman of the board of directors of HASI,
15 H?A?S?I, today as described in HCO policy letter of
16 December 18th, 1964, found on page 57 of the OEC
17 Volume 7, can you tell me that what that is?
18 A. I never so testified that way.
19 Q. I'm just asking you what is the role of
20 the chairman of the board of directors of HASI
21 today?
22 A. If you want to give me a spot quiz on the
23 page, I don't know what the answer to the spot quiz
24 on the page number is, I'll attest to that.
25 Q. You know the answer to that. HASI doesn't
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1 exist today.
2 A. You asked me for a page number on it,
3 specific things ??
4 Q. Does HASI exist today?
5 A. Can I finish my answer?
6 Q. Does ??
7 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
8 A. Read back the question. You asked me for
9 an answer ??
10 Q. No, I did not.
11 A. Yes, you did.
12 Q. No. What I asked you was ??
13 A. Read it back.
14 Q. ?? and I'll tell you exactly, based on
15 your assertions that nothing can ever change, can
16 you tell me the role of the chairman of the board
17 of directors of HASI today?
18 A. I never so testified that nothing can
19 change. I gave you something that they said LRH
20 policy should change.
21 Q. The truth of the matter is there was a
22 policy order whenever, but you know dating back
23 along ?? well, you said you knew the policy, right?
24 A. Sir, would you please stop yelling at me?
25 Q. I'm not yelling at you.
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1 A. You are too.
2 Q. No, you're yelling at me.
3 A. And the audio would show it.
4 MR. DANDAR: Stop.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Young ??
6 A. Your question was prefaced with based
7 upon something that I did not testify to and I'm
8 trying to be exact.
9 Q. No, what I'm doing ?? no. Yeah, like you
10 were being exact in your deposition out in
11 California, is that right?
12 A. I want to take a break.
13 MR. DANDAR: Don't respond to that.
14 A. I really want to take a break.
15 Q. You just took a break.
16 A. I don't need to sit here and just be
17 insulted.
18 Q. You're not being insulted.
19 A. Yes, you are.
20 Q. No, I'm not.
21 A. If you want to just ask me a question ??
22 Q. And I did ask you a question.
23 A. And I responded. To the preface of your
24 question I cannot respond. I never so testified.
25 Q. And I didn't say you did. What you
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1 testified to ??
2 A. You did. You repeated the question.
3 Q. No. What you testified ?? no, I asked you
4 a question. What you testified to ?? what you
5 testified to was policy never changes and what I'm
6 asking you is ??
7 A. No, I did not. I did not. I gave you the
8 integrity of source issue that they said policy
9 cannot be changed.
10 Q. Was there a policy with regard to the
11 function of the chairman of the board of HASI?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And since that policy was issued, there is
14 no longer HASI, right?
15 A. That is correct.
16 Q. So that policy, even though it was issued
17 and even though it may well appear still in the
18 Green Books, it doesn't apply to anything today,
19 right?
20 A. That is correct. It works much easier
21 when we do it this way.
22 Q. And there are lots of policies like that,
23 aren't there?
24 A. There are many policies. In fact, that's
25 what the OE ?? Organizational Executive Course is.
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1 You study policies to learn things that don't even
2 apply anymore. You learn the history of it.
3 Q. Right. And in rereleasing old policy
4 letters that still have some current application,
5 Mr. Hubbard provided for pencilling out that which
6 was no longer applicable, correct, sir?
7 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form.
8 A. He gave ??
9 Q. Is that right?
10 A. He gave that authority to people to make
11 those changes, yes.
12 Q. Would you agree that ethics technology is
13 an important part of the religion?
14 A. I would agree that ethics technology is an
15 important part of the L. Ron Hubbard technology.
16 Q. So the problem you have is calling
17 Scientology a religion, is that the problem with
18 that answer?
19 A. That you always try to get me to use the
20 word when I don't really agree to the word.
21 Q. Okay. A great deal of emphasis has been
22 placed on ethical behavior and ethical codes in
23 Scientology, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Just like a great deal of emphasis has
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1 been placed on ethics in other religions, including
2 Catholicism, correct?
3 A. If you want to make that comparison, or
4 within the military service, however.
5 Q. Well, I mean it is very important in a
6 religious institution that the people that are part
7 of that institution be ethical, correct?
8 A. Whether it be government, military or any
9 other thing, or a private business, I'll agree.
10 Q. Ecclesiastical?
11 A. You want me to agree to the
12 ecclesiastical. I can't agree to that. I can
13 agree to ethics ??
14 Q. I was talking about other ?? I was talking
15 about other churches?
16 A. I said ??
17 Q. You would agree that the Baptist is a
18 church, the Baptist church is a church?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You would agree that the Catholic church
21 is a church?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You would agree that the Unitarians are a
24 church?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Congregationalists are a church?
2 A. As long as they call them that, I suppose
3 they are that.
4 Q. You know what, you would agree that the
5 Mormons are a religion?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You would agree that the Christian
8 Scientists are a religion?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You would agree that Buddhism is a
11 religion, people that follow Buddhism are following
12 a religion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Hinduism?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Muslims?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Fundamentalist Christians?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Presbyterians, yes?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Is there any, other than Scientology, that
23 doesn't make your list right now?
24 A. Well, you sometimes hear of cults, you
25 know, where they end up killing themselves, where
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1 the guys covered themselves up with purple and I
2 don't know ?? wanted to jump on a comet. I have
3 difficulty with things like that.
4 Q. So what were there, like 20 people in that
5 organization?
6 A. I really don't know how many. Or the ones
7 that wanted to put the Sarin gas into the Japanese
8 subway system, I don't know if that's part of a
9 serious religion.
10 Q. All right. Well, can you think of any
11 other organization ?? any other new religion in the
12 twentieth century ?? the twentieth century that you
13 would not call a religion other than your former
14 religion Scientology?
15 A. I just named you one. I just named you
16 two instances. I could also ?? see the question
17 is ??
18 Q. Excuse me. Excuse me for one second.
19 Now ??
20 MR. DANDAR: You interrupted him. You
21 interrupted him. Can you let him answer your
22 question?
23 MR. WEINBERG: No, I asked him and he
24 apparently wasn't able to answer.
25 MR. DANDAR: Yes, he was. Are you going
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1 to withdraw your question?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Let me ?? yeah, I withdraw
3 that question.
4 Q. Let me do this. Now, you're not
5 suggesting that anyone has suggested that the Hale
6 comet people was a recognized religion. There were
7 20 people in the room. You're not suggesting that
8 anybody has suggested that, are you?
9 A. You asked me my ??
10 Q. No, I'm asking you. Did I read that
11 somewhere?
12 A. Read what?
13 Q. That anybody had suggested that that was a
14 religious body?
15 A. Yeah, I read that.
16 Q. Fine. And so you would reject them as a
17 religion then?
18 A. No, no. See, here's the problem. You get
19 into religion versus a sect. And at that point,
20 it's a fragment or section of, say, the
21 Protestants, you know, there is various sects and
22 denominations and you get all these breakdowns and
23 people use the term as they want.
24 Okay. The boys jumping on the comet
25 weren't a religion, you know. They were a group,
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1 they were ?? call them what you want. Some people
2 ended up calling them a cult. The point was it
3 wasn't a religion like Catholicism is a religion,
4 like Mormonism is a religion. So ??
5 Q. Well, people called in the Great Schism
6 centuries ago, they called that a sect, right?
7 There was a break in the Christian church, correct?
8 A. In the Catholic church.
9 Q. Catholic church I mean.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. But that's really not my point. In
12 the twentieth century there have been a number of
13 new religions, correct?
14 A. New religions and new sects.
15 Q. I mean, for example, the Christian
16 Scientists, although they may date back to the late
17 1800s, but basically, it's a twentieth century
18 religion, correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. But you recognize them as a
21 religion?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You have read their works?
24 A. I've read some.
25 Q. Well, who, by the way, in the Christian
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1 Science religion, I mean whose teachings do they
2 ascribe to?
3 A. Mary Baker Eddy.
4 Q. A person, right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. A person that lived in the twentieth
7 century, right?
8 A. I don't know the exact span of her life
9 but that's okay.
10 Q. They don't believe that you should seek
11 medical treatment for medical conditions, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. They believe that you should deal with
14 medical conditions spiritually, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Scientologists don't believe, people that
17 ascribe to Scientology, that you should seek
18 psychiatric treatment for mental conditions but
19 that you should deal with that what they would call
20 spiritually, correct?
21 A. Some do, some don't. It's not a standard
22 belief within Scientology.
23 Q. All right. But you accept the fact that
24 Christian Scientists can genuinely believe that if
25 you've got cancer, you shouldn't go to a doctor and
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1 should seek spiritual healing but that
2 Scientologists can't genuinely believe that you
3 should deal spiritually with your mental problems?
4 A. I didn't say that.
5 Q. All right. You would accept that both
6 can, correct?
7 A. No. I didn't say that either.
8 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want to change the
9 tape? Just change it.
10 (Recess.)
11 PLEASE REFER to Volume V for further Trial
12 Testimony.
13 NOTE: The original and one copy of the
14 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by
15 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar.
16 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing
17 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled
18 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm
19 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard,
20 Suite 201, Tampa, Florida.
21
22
23
24
25
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McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 626
1 SIGNATURE PAGE
2 Volume IV
3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the
4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on
5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the
6 following corrections, if any, should be made in
7 the transcript:
8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18 Subject to the above corrections, if any,
19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing
20 Trial Testimony.
21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this
22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___.
23
24 ________________________________
25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG
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1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH
2
3 STATE OF FLORIDA
4 COUNTY OF POLK
5
6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby
7 certify that the witness named herein personally
8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn.
9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this
10 12th day of February, 2000.
11
12
13
14 ________________________________
15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR
16 Notary Public ? State of Florida
17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 STATE OF FLORIDA
3 COUNTY OF POLK
4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered
5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter
6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida
7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared
8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial
9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did
10 stenographically and electronically report the
11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the
12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript
13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic
14 notes and recordings thereof.
15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an
16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause,
17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party
18 connected with this litigation, nor am I
19 financially interested in the outcome of this
20 action.
21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at
22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida.
23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00
SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000