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Zizics' video interview with Mark Bunker.
Bill Zizic Pretrial Testimony
DR. WILLIAM ZIZIC,
called as a witness On behalf of the Defendant herein, after
having been first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY
MR. DE VLAMING :
Q State your name, please?
A My name is Dr. William Z-i-z-i-c. I live in Chicago, Illinois.
Q What are you a doctor of?
A Dentistry.
Q Dr. Zizic, back on January 25th of 2000, did, you have an
occasion on that date to meet with
a man named Mark Bunker, the Defendant in this action?
A Yes, I did.
Q Earlier on that date, did you have occasion to be in his
presence when Mr. Bunker had with
him what appeared to be a video camera?
A Yes.
Q And, did you watch him load that video camera with any cassette
or film?
A Yes, he did.
Q Did you actually see him put film in the camera?
A I actually saw him put it in the camera.
Q Did he video any tape of you and your wife?
A Yes he did. He had an interview with us over an hour.
Q Did he affix to you some device that allowed your voice to be
picked up and transmitted to
his camera?
A It was a little microphone on my tie.
Q That was a cordless mike?
A Yes.
Q Did you go with Mr. Bunker with his camera to 3011 North
Lincoln Avenue, in Chicago?
A yes, I did.
Q And, is that the location of the; Church of Scientology?
A Yes,I did.
Q The purpose of going there was what?
A We invited him to go there with us to film an interview, so we
could get our money back
at the Church of Scientology.
Q You were going to get an application to get about $100,000 back
from the Church of
Scientology for monies you had given them?
A yes.
Q And, Mr. Bunker had agreed to help with that endeavor with you
and your wife?
A Yes, sir.
Q As you came up to the building of Scientology, who was first,
second, and third, or were you
all together?
A I was in front, and I was walking up to the door, and my wife
was behind me, and Mark Bunker
was ten to fifteen feet behind them, and he was filming.
Q And, what was the purpose when you going up to the Church of
Scientology, what were you going
there for?
A We were going together at 7:30 p.m., and we were asking them
for permission for Mr. Bunker
to videotape the interview.
Q Did you have to open the door to the Church of Scientoloqy?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: This is beyond the scope of these
hearings.
THE WITNESS: I walked up to the door and I opened the door.
MR. DEVLAMING: Q Did you qo to the building?
A I (entered on the carpeting, and I turned around because there
was a commotion on the
sidewalk, and I saw these two men attacking Mr. Bunker.
WRONKIEWICZ: Objection to the characterization.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. DE VLAMING: Q Where was Mr. Bunker at the time these
men came up to him?
A On the public sidewalk.
Q Were the men clothed in any type of police uniform?
A No, they were not.
Q Did they have any badges on?
A. NO, they did not.
Q And, what did you see, in relation to the camera that Mr.
Bunker had when he was in the presence of those two men?
A The cell phone dropped out of his pocket, and my wife picked
that up, and they were trying to handcuff him, so he took the
camera and he sat it down on the ground next to his right foot.
I was standing on his riqht side.
Q What did you do?
A I reached down and picked up the camera, and the light was
sti1l on the camera and the camera
was still filming, and I continued to film.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection to continuing to film.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. DE VLAMING: Q You said that the light was still on. What do
you mean?
A There was a red light on. When the cassette is in the camera,
the camera is operating
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: I am going to object to him testifying as
an expert.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. DE VLAMING Q Did you actually see this red light on?
A I sure did.
Q And, it was in your custody when the light was on ?
A The light was on, and it was filming these officers.
Q Did you aim the camera towards the individual that were
arresting Mr. Bunker?
A Yes.
Q And, do you believe that the tape would have shown were the
officers and Mr. Bunker were on
the sidewalk at the time?
A Absolutely. Yes.
Q When did that camera leave your person?
A The shorter of the two policemen took the camera from me. He
said, "Give me the camera."
I said, "What are you going do with that?" He said, "I will take
it."
Q Did the shorter of the two officers take the camera?
A Yes.
Q Was the red light on when he took the camera?
A The light was still on.
Q What did you see happen to the camera next?
A He took the camera, and I was trying to turn off the light, and
I was turning in the camera,
looking at it to turn the camera off.
Q When was the last time you saw the camera?
A lady officer walked up with him, and they walked up with they
walked up with the camera. I saw the
lady officer carrying the camera and put it in the front seat of
the police vehicle.
MR. DE VLAMING: No further questions.
THE COURT; State?
Cross.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY
MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q What time was this interview that you had with Mr. Bunker,
prior to going to the Church of
Scientology7
A 7:30.
Q What time was the interview that interviewed you and your wife?
A That was, at 4:00 o'clock in the afternoon.
Q Now, you testified you had not called the Church of Scientology
to ask their permission to
bring Mr. Bunker, is that correct?
A That's right.
Q But, you had arranged this meeting at the Church of Scientology
prior to arriving, correct?
A That's right.
Q Sir, since it's true that when you arrived at the Church of
Scientology, you were there with your
wife and Mr. Bunker correct?
A. That's correct
Q And, at some point, you saw Mr. Bunker placed under arrest,
is that correct?
A. That's correct
Q And, Mr. Bunker was trying to use his cell phone while being
placed under arrest, correct?
A I did not see that I know it fell out of his pocket.
Q In addition, while the defendant was being placed under arrest,
his video camera actually
fell to the ground, correct?
A No, that is not correct.
Q Sir, in addition to yourself, Mr. Bunker, and your wife, there
were other individuals around in
front of the Church of Scientology, correct? .
A Yes.
Q And, there were about five or ten people outside the Church of
Scientology correct?
A I believe so, yes
Q When Mr. Bunker was being placed under arrest, you and your
wife, you were present when your wife
was speaking to these officers, correct?
MS. AIMEN: You said that when Mr. Bunker was being placed
under arrest you were having a conversation
with the officer?
THE WITNESS: yes.
MS. KRONKIEWICZ: Q Your wife was screaming at the officer,
correct?
MS. AIMEN: Objection.
THE COURT: Overuled.
THE WITNESS: She had shown no ID .
MS. KRONKIEWICZ: Q Her voice was raised when she was asking
to see the identification?
A Yes .
Q In fact, she was saying that she did not believe they were
police officers, is that correct?
A True.
Q At the same time, Mr. Bunker was placed under arrest, right?
A Yes
Q In addition, there is a bar located across the street from the
Church of Scientology?
A I think so.
Q Several patrons from the bar came out onto the scene, correct?
A I did not see anybody from tbe bar.
Q In addition to the two police officers that were there, a
single female officer arrived in a
squad car, correct?
A Yes.
Q In addition to the officers, there were at least one of two
more squads that arrived on the scene?
A That's right.
Q Would it be fair to describe this as a chaotic night?
A No.
Q While the Defendant was being placed under arrest, the Defendant's
wife was screaming at the officer. "where is my video camera? Where
is my video camera?" Correct?
A I did not hear that, no.
Q In fact, one of your officers, the shorter one, came up to you
that you must give over the
defendant's video camera, correct?
A He said "Give me the camera."
Q He also told you that that's because Mr. Bunker was being
placed under arrest and his
property, correct?
A He said that was his property. Mr. Bunker "What are you going
to do with it" and the police officer
said, "Take it to the station."
Q And, you would not give that officer the video camera, correct?
A That's not true. I gave him the camera.
Q Initially, you would not qive it to him, correct?
MS AIMEN: Objection to the term "initially"
THE COURT: Sustained.
MS WRONKIEWICZ: Q You did not just hand over the video camera to
the officer?
A I had the camera in my hand. He said, "Give me the camera. I
said, "What are you going to do with it?
And, he said, take it to the station." And, I let him have it.
Q You saw that police officer hand that video camera to another
police officer, and it was
immediately placed in a police vehicle?
A When I saw her walk with the camera in her right hand and then
put the camera in the
vehicle.
Q At some point, the video camera was on the ground, correct?
A It was set on the ground for a second.
Q While the camera was on the ground, the people frome the Church
of Scientology had access to it?
A I don't think so. It was right at my feet, between myself and
Mr. Bunker.
ound for a second.
MR. DE VLAMING: Indicating, for the record, he is pointing
to the ground to the space between himself
and Mr. Bunker as he stands in the courtroom.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Q One of the officers who arrived on the
scene was a short female officer with brown
hair, who you had met two weeks before, correct?
A Yes.
Q Two weeks before, you had a conversation with her, correct?
A Yes.
Q And, she also told you that she could not come to the Church of
Scientology without makinq an appointment?
A We made an appointment, yes.
Q Is that why she had told you to make an appointment?
A Yes.
Q One of the officers who placed Mr. Bunker under arrest, he was
also present on the scene when you were
talking to this officer, correct?
A Yes .
Q Did you tell the officer that you had called the police before
you had even come to the
Church of Scientology?
A Yes.
Q At some point, did the officers show their badges? Correct?
MS AIMEN: Objection, as to which officer.
THE COURT; Sustained.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Q The two officers that placed Mr. Bunker under
arrest did show you some
badges, correct?
A I saw no badges .
Q Well, sir, did you hear your wife yelling, "Those are not real
badges those are fake badges"?
A I know that one officer presented her a card .
MS. AIMEN: I would object that she said she saw no badqe
THE COURT: Overruled.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Q So, the officer handed your wife some type of
idenitification, correct?
A Yes
Q Your wife was questioning the identification that she had been
handed by the officer?
A Yes.
Q Sir, it is your testimony that you had possession of Mr.
Bunker's video camera the whole
time he was being placed under arrest, correct?
A No.
Q But, you did have the Defendant's video camera in your
possession when the police were
looking for it, correct?
A I sat it down on the ground, and I was being handcuffed. I put
the camera down, and he picked
it up.
Q So, you did not have the Defendant's camera in your
possession, correct?
A For fifteen seconds, yes.
Q This microphone that had been used on you earlier for in
interview, were you wearing this
microphone when you arrived at the Church of Scientology?
A No.
Q Did your wife have this microphone on when she you arrived at
the Church of Scientology?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Did you have a type of interview that you and your wife did as
you are having here in court today?
A No.
Q Do you know how many hours of videotape Mr. -- first of all,
from the time that Mr. Bunker
interviewed you and your wife earlier in the day, did you ever
ask --
Judge, I have to strike that for a second.
A.The interview that you and your wife gave to Mr. Bunker,
you testified that that lasted an hour,
correct?
A That's correct .
Q Do you have any personal knowledge of how many hours of
videotape that videotape could hold?
A No.
Q And what time did you say that videotape was?
A It was in the afternoon, at 4:00 o'clock.
Q You never saw Mr. Bunker load the videotape with the video
camera prior to going to the
Church of Scientology at 7:30, did you?
A No.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: I have nothing further, Judge.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY
MR. DE VLAMING:
Q The purpose of bringing the tape to the Church of scientology
was what?
A To interview us outside the church on the front sidewalk.
Q And, when you picked the camera up, did there appear to be any
damage to the camera, as if it had been dropped?
A No.
Q When the Officer had the camera in his hand, looking for the
light, whether be even found the off button in your presence
turn the light off --
MS. KRONKIEWICZ: Objection .
THE COURT: Overrule.
THE WITNESS: I did not see him turn off the light.
MR. DE VLAMING: Thank you.
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY
MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q You are not an expert in the use of video cameras, correct?
A That's correct.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: I have nothing further
THE COURT:Anything else?
MR. DE VLAMING: Nothing of this witness.
Bill Zizic Trial Testimony
MR. DE VLAMING: Yes, we are ready, Judge. I will call
Dr. William Zizic to the stand, please.
THE COURT: Sir, step up here, will you please. Face me, if
you would.
(Witness sworn.)
THE COURT: Proceed.
MR. DE VLAMING: Tell us your name, please.
THE WITNESS: Dr. William R. Zizic, Z-i-z-i-c.
DR. WILLIAM R. ZIZIC,
called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, having been first
duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Where do you reside, Dr. Zizic?
A. In Chicago, Illinois.
Q. And you are a doctor of what?
A. Dentistry.
Q. How long have you been a doctor of dentistry?
A. 35 years.
Q. And are you married?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. And your wife's first name is?
A. Barbara.
Q. She is also a doctor of dentistry?
A. Yes, she is.
Q. You practice that specialty together?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Dr. Zizic, were you one time a member of the Church of
Scientology?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you tell me approximately over what span of time you
were a member of the church?
A. Since '97, '96, '97.
Q. Was there a time that you wanted to leave the Church of
Scientology?
A. Yes.
Q. And specifically, had you given that church a certain amount
of money?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. For what purpose was the money given?
A. For courses.
Q. For courses?
A. And training.
Q. Approximately, how much money are we talking about?
A. $130,000.
Q. Was there a time that you had made a request for the return of
money from the
Church of Scientology?
A. Yes.
Q. And approximately how long did you make an effort to return of
money that was due to you?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
THE WITNESS: About '97, about three years.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Were you able to get your money back?
A. Yes. Now, we did.
Q. Let me rephrase the question. Up until the time of the 25th of
January, 2000, before
Mr. Bunker came to town, were YOU able to get the money back?
A. No.
Q. In an effort to be able to get money back that was due to you,
did you take any action or
make any phone calls?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And who did you contact?
A. We contacted Mr. Jim Bebe from the network.
Q. From the what?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: I am sorry. I did hear it.
THE WITNESS: Cann, which is Warner network.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. HOW did you eventually get to Mr. Bunker?
A. Through his referral.
Q. Did you have a conversation with the organization that Mr.
Bunker works for?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection, Judge.
THE COURT: Sustained.
By MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Well, how did you contact Mr. Bunker, tell us that?
A. 1 was given his phone number from Mr. Jim Bebe.
Q. And did you make contact with him?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And was -- were there any arrangements made for Mr. Bunker to
come to the City of Chicago?
A. Yes. We had asked him to come to Chicago.
Q. For what purpose was that?
A. To help us get our money back.
Q. And did you meet with Mr. Bunker on the 25th of January?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you met with him before that time?
A. No. That was the first time that I met him.
Q. Okay. And on the 25th of January, did he have equipment with
him; that is, photographic
equipment, videotaping equipment?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Was there a time that day that you were -- they had a
microphone placed upon You?
A. Yes. We did an interview earlier.
Q. That's what I was getting to. Earlier in the day, You did an
interview or Mr. Bunker did of you and
your wife?
A. That's right.
Q. And did he have with him a video camera for that purpose?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What was the purpose of that interview?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. After the interview -- first of all, did you see him load the
camera with tape
for that purpose?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And when he was taping, did you notice anything about the
camera whether it was turned on?
A. The red light was turned on.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. He was filming. I didn't hear you?
A. The red light was on when the camera was on.
Q. And had YOU had a prearranged meeting to be able to go to the
Church of Scientology in order to discuss
this money issue?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And approximately what time was that?
A. 7:30 in the evening.
Q. Were You going to bring Mr. Bunker with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. We were going to ask permission if it was all right if he came
to tape the interview.
Q. The interview. You mean, the interview so that you could
obtain the money back?
A. I asked for the money back, yes.
Q. Did you -- and your wife accompany you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you, in fact, did Mr. Bunker go to the area of 3011 North
Lincoln Avenue?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Tell US what happened when you first arrived?
A. There were people on the street uP and down South Port and
Lincoln Avenue and we drove by and
there was no place to park. All the parking places were filled so
we went around the block
and parked on the next street on
Wellington.
The three of us got out of the vehicle and walked towards
the church and crossed
Lincoln Avenue and walked up on the sidewalk in front of the
Church of Scientology.
Q. Okay. To your knowledge, is that the first time that Mark
Bunker had been at that
location?
A. Yes.
Q. As you walked towards the church to the entrance of Church of
Scientology, would you tell
the jury who was -- in what order you walked up to the entrance
of the church?
I was in front and my wife was behind me and Mark Bunker was
back further filming us as we
approached the door.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. And did you -- did you, Dr. ZiZiC, actually get to the front
door of the organization?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell US what happened at that point, as you reached the front
door, what happened?
I reached the -- I got to the front door and 1 reached for
the
door and I pulled the
door open and I stepped back. It opens out into the vestibule.
And then, my wife was behind me and Mark Bunker was on
the sidewalk and I turned
around like this and the next thing I saw was two men jump Mr.
Bunker and push him back.
Q. Will you describe these men?
A. One was tall and big and the other one was shorter, both had
black jackets and looked like black
pants.
Q. Did they have any identifying words on their clothing?
A. No, they did not.
Q. What did you say when you -- now, you said they jumped Mr.
Bunker. Describe what you
actually saw?
Well, they rushed up to him and grabbed him on the arms and
pushed him back.
Q. Did you hear what either Mr. Bunker were saying or what the
men were saying to him?
A. Not until later.
Q. All right. SO what did you do with the door at that point in
time?
I let go of the door and I started walking towards the
sidewalk.
Q. Tell me what you saw and heard?
A. I stood behind my wife and she was having a conversation, a
loud conversation with this
police officer. He said that he was, you know, she asked who are
you and she didn't believe
that he was a police officer and he pulled out some kind of a
badge.
It looked like a license and the picture was smudged off
she said and I stood there and
observed that. And then, they were yelling back and forth. And
then, he turned around towards Mr. Bunker.
Q. Was your wife challenging who this man was challenging?
A. She wanted to know his identification.
Q. Did she say in your presence, did she say anything towards the
officer when he produced this
document, this identification document?
She said, you are not an officer because I can't see your
picture. This is fake.
Q. All right. What did you see next. You incidentally, at this
point in time, are you in the
vestibule or are you on the sidewalk?
A. I walked out on the sidewalk.
Q. And Mr. Bunker was standing where?
A. In the middle of sidewalk, even further towards the street.
Q. When you opened that door and turned around, was Mr. Bunker in
the vestibule or on the
public sidewalk?
A. On the public sidewalk.
Q. Tell me what you saw next where the two men are holding Mr.
Bunker. What did you see?
My wife was standing there on this one side and I walked
around to the right hand side of
Mr. Bunker by the curb, by the coin meter and by the poles on the
curb.
Q. Okay.
A. On the sidewalk.
Q. And tell us what you saw?
A. I stood there and these two officers were on Mr. Bunker and
they had their hands on him.
They were restraining him.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection to the narrative.
THE COURT: Sustained.
THE WITNESS: They were --
THE COURT: Hold on. Your lawyer will ask you a question.
THE WITNESS: All right.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Did you see both of the officers you say still had a hold of
Mr. Bunker?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear anything that they were saying towards Mr. Bunker
from your vantage point?
A. They said, put the camera down.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Stop filming.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Put the camera down, stop filming?
A. uh-huh.
Q. Did you hear anything that Mr. Bunker said towards the
officers at this time?
A. He said, why are you doing this to me? Who are you?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Why are you doing this. Who are you.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. I am sorry.
A. He said, why are you doing this to me. Who are you.
Q. Did they respond to him in your presence?
A. I didn't hear that, no.
Q. Was Mr. Bunker still in possession of the camera during this
struggle?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see what happened with the camera?
A. The one officer, the shorter officer, forced him to put the
camera down on the
ground.
Q. How did he do that?
A. He grabbed his hand.
Q. For the record, you seem to be holding your thumb or the area
of the hand?
A.Yes. He grabbed his hand. Mr. Bunker had his right hand on
the camera and he grabbed the hand, Mr. Bunker's hand.
Q. Okay.
A. And forced him to put the camera On the ground.
Q. Did Mr. Bunker put the camera on the ground?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did he ever drop it to the ground?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Did you see it lay where Mr. Bunker placed it?
A. It was sitting right where he placed it, yes.
Q. Did you do anything in relationship to the camera?
A. Yes. I picked the camera up then.
Q. It was in your possession?
A. Yes. The red light was still on.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained. Ask another question.
MR. DE VLAMING: All right.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. When you picked the camera up, was the red light on or off on
the camera?
A. The red light was on.
Q. What did you do with the camera at that point in time?
A. I had camera and I was trying to film this officer who was
holding Mr. Bunker
and he let Mr. Bunker go and he came to me for the camera. He
said, give me the
camera.
Q. Let me stop you. You seem to be holding your hand. Did you
have the camera up on
your shoulder?
A. No. I was holding it down at my knees trying to angle up.
Q. You said angle up?
A. Angle up.
Q. And the officer came over to you at that point?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. At some point. And what did he say to you?
A. He put it --
Q. If you don't know names, you can state the larger of the two
officers or the smaller
of the two officers?
The smaller of the two officers, he put his hand on the camera
and he told me to let go of the camera. And I said, what are you
going to do with the camera. He said, we are going to take
it to the station and I let the camera go and he took the camera.
Q. Was the red light on when he took possession?
A. The red light was still on.
Q. You are sure of that?
A. Yes. Because I didn't how to turn it off.
Q. Say that again?
A. I did not know how to turn it off.
Q. Okay. Did you know, to this day, do you know how to take the
cassette out of this camera?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Did you ever remove a cassette from that camera?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So he takes the camera from you. What is Mr. Bunker doing with
either of two officers
at this point?
A. He is being handcuffed by the other officer.
Q. By the larger?
A. The larger of two officers.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection to the leading, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. When the smaller of the two officers took the video camera
from you, did you see where
he took it?
A.He took the camera and he was turning it over and the red
light was on and he walked over to a lady officer who walked
up, a Schloss, I think, her name was.
Q. Okay. Did he do anything with the camera in relation to that
officer?
A. I didn't see. They walked away together.
Q. And that's the last you saw of the camera?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I saw the camera. I walked around the car back out to the
street and I turned around to look and I could see that the light
was off on the camera when they were taking the camera to the
squad car.
Q. YOU noticed that?
A. The light was off, yes.
Q. IS that the last that you saw of it that day?
A. That's the last that I saw of the camera.
Q. Dr. Zizic, did you ever hear any member of the Church of
Scientology tell Mr. Bunker that day that he could not
come onto their property?
A. No.
Q. You know who a Mary Anne Ahmad is?
A. Yes. I have met her.
Q. Do you know her to be a member of the Church of Scientology?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever hear Ms. Ahmad instruct Mr. Bunker or tell him in
any fashion that he could not come onto church property?
A. No.
Q. Was Mr. Bunker taken away in the squad car?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there any effort -- and you were not arrested?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Your wife was not arrested?
A. No.
Q. Was there any effort to get you to go into the Church of
Scientology after he was taken away?
A. They invited us --
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Dr. Zizic, when you turned around from the front door of that
organization and you saw the two men, were they left and right
of Mr. Bunker?
A. Yes. They were on either side of him, yes.
Q. Did you ever hear, at that point in time, them identifying by
what authority they were holding him or telling him that he could
not go inside of that building?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection to the leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No. I didn't hear what they said.
MR. DE VLAMING: One moment, Judge.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Dr. Zizic, let me show you what's been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 6, which appears to be a photograph. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the front of the Church of Scientology?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is this the door that you opened on that day?
A. That is correct.
Q. Did Mark Bunker ever enter inside of the building of the
Church of Scientology?
A. No.
Q. Did you he ever enter even in the vestibule area marked by the
tile?
A. No.
Q. He was always on the sidewalk?
A. Yes.
MR. DE VLAMING: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. Mr. Zizic, you were previously a member of the Church of
Scientology, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. That's your testimony. So is your wife, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you said that was in approximately '96?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. And that would have been for approximately how long were you a
member?
A. Maybe a year.
Q . So it would be fair to say then in January of the year 2000,
you were no longer
a member of the Church of Scientology?
A. Right.
Q. And you felt that the Church of Scientology owed you some
money, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you had arranged a meeting with the Church of Scientology
at 7:30 on January 25th, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you had called ahead to make arrangements for you and your
wife to be at that meeting, correct?
A. We had the meeting set up the week before.
Q. So you called. Is that a yes or a no. You called ahead to make
arrangements for your wife
and you to be at a meeting, correct?
A. The week before we made the arrangements, yes.
Q. So you arranged a meeting for 7:3O on January 25th, correct?
A. Right.
Q. All right. You did not ask for permission for Mark Bunker to
come with you, correct?
A. Right.
Q. It's your testimony that you invited Mark Bunker to go with
you to help you get your money back, correct?
A. Right.
Q. But you didn't call Russ Ewing to go with you on that date,
correct?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. So you flew Mark Bunker in from Florida to come with you to
get your money back, is that correct?
MS. AIMEN: Objection. No facts in evidence.
THE COURT: Overruled. He can answer.
THE WITNESS: No.
BY MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. Well, Mark Bunker flew in from Florida, correct?
MS. AIMEN: Objection. Beyond the scope of the personal
knowledge.
THE COURT: Overruled. If he knows.
THE WITNESS: He was in Chicago. I assume that he came from
Florida.
BY MR. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. Okay. Well, you brought the video camera. Let me rephrase
that. When you went to this meeting on January 25th, Mark Bunker
had a camera with him, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the purpose of bringing that video camera was to be
interviewed outside of the Church of Scientology, correct?
A. We were going to be -- we asked -- we were going to ask
permission for him to come in and interview and film the
interview that we were going to have with the Church of
Scientology.
Q. But you previously testified in this matter, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was actually on November 17th of this year, correct?
A. Last year.
Q. November 17th of the year 2000, correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And that was in front of this same courtroom, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was a court reporter on that date taking down your
testimony, correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Page 18.
THE COURT: You have to answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. And you were asked a series of questions by an attorney on
that date, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Sir, were you asked this question and did you give this
answer.
Q. The purpose of bringing the tape to the Church of
Scientology was what?
To interview us outside on the church on the front
sidewalk.
Sir, were you asked that question and did you give that answer?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, Mr. Bunker did not carry with him a tripod on January
25th, correct?
A. Right, yes.
Q. And he did not have with him or you didn't have with you a
hand-held microphone,
correct?
A. Correct.
Q. And you didn't set up any like free standing lights for this
interview, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the front of that camera does not have like a big bright
spotlight on it, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And you didn't have a cordless microphone with you, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And, sir, isn't it true that you called the police before you
arrived at the Church of
Scientology on January 25th?
A.That was our arrangement with the police the previous week. We
were to call them ten
minutes before our point of time.
Q. So, sir, did you call the police before you arrived on January
25th?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are saying that the police told you to call them
before you went?
A. Yes.
Q. So you walked up to the church entrance and you opened the
door, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't have to walk around two officers to get to that
door, correct?
A. That's right. There was no one in the vestibule.
Q. And your wife was also with you, correct?
A. She was behind me, yes.
Q. And Mr. Bunker, according to you, Mr. Bunker was behind her,
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. So you have no idea what Mr. Bunker was doing behind you as
approached the
church, correct?
A. He was filming. I assume that he was filming.
Q. But you are assuming that, correct?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. Now, the two individuals who arrived on the scene, they were
two males, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was a taller one and a shorter one, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And these two individuals told Mr. Bunker that he had to
leave, correct?
A. I didn't hear that.
Q. You didn't hear that. Well, sir, isn't it true that they could
have told him
that he had to leave and you wouldn't have heard it?
A. Yes.
Q. And, sir, isn't it true that these two individuals identified
themselves as police
officers?
A. After awhile, yes.
Q. And when these individuals identified themselves as police
officers, Mr. Bunker did not
leave, correct?
A. He was being restrained. He couldn't leave.
Q. He couldn't leave, that's your testimony. Now, your wife was
standing next to Mr. Bunker,
correct?
She was standing -- Mr. Bunker was being confronted between -
he was behind the police
officer, a big police officer was standing there and my wife was
standing facing him.
Q. Your wife was facing the big police officer, is that what you
are saying?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. And your wife was questioning the police officer's
identification, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And she was saying -- her voice was raised, correct?
A. She was upset, yes.
Q. When you say she was upset, was she yelling?
A. Her voice was raised.
Q. And as she was yelling, was she flailing her arms in the air?
A. No. She was saying, who are you, who are you.
Q. And you saw your wife was handed an identification, correct?
A. I saw him hold up a piece of paper. It looked like a paper
card or drivers license.
Q. And that card or drivers license was actually in a black
wallet, correct?
A. I didn't see that.
Q. Your wife -- you heard your wife say that's not a real badge,
correct?
A. Right.
Q. At that time, you didn't see Mr. Bunker leave, correct?
A. The other police officer was standing holding Mr. Bunker.
Q. Is that a yes or no, did you see Mr. Bunker leave?
A. No.
Q. Now, at some point, you heard the police tell Mr. Bunker
that's it. You are under
arrest, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Bunker -- Mr. Bunker started backing up, correct?
A. I think, he was in the middle of the sidewalk and he had been
pushed off but he didn't
step off the curb.
Q. When the police said, that's it, you are under arrest, he was
backing away from the police officer, correct?
A.I don't think he was backing away from the police officer. He
was setting down his camera.
Q. Now, in addition to having his camera, he also had his cell
phone on that date, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And when Mr. Bunker was being placed under arrest, you saw him
with this cell phone in his hand, correct?
A.I don't remember too much about the cell phone but I know he
had one, yes.
Q. Well, you know that he had a cell phone and you saw the
defendant drop his cell phone and
your wife picked it up, correct?
A. Yes. I know he dropped a cell phone, yes.
Q. And you also know that your wife picked it up, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at some point, you admit that the defendant's video
camera is on the ground, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And at that point, the defendant signaled to YOU to pick up
the camera, correct?
A. No, he didn't. I just did it on my own.
Q. You did not see the defendant look at you and signal to you to
pick up that camera?
A. No.
Q. When you had that camera in your hand, it was down at your
side, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. And when you had that camera in your hand, you were not
standing in the original entrance
that you had walked into, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. You were actually in the second entrance over, correct?
A. No. That's not correct. I had walked --
Q. Sir, there is no question.
A. Okay.
Q. Now, you just testified that earlier in the day, the defendant
came over to your house for some type of interview, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. On that date, YOU watched the defendant load the video camera,
that's your testimony?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you had talked to the defendant about your testimony
today here in court, correct?
A. I mentioned it to him.
Q. And you talked to his attorneys about your testimony here?
A. We discussed it.
Q. And have you talked to your wife about your testimony here
today in court?
A. We have talked about it.
Q. Now, you earlier testified that the officer, the shorter
officer, came and
took that video camera from you, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. That shorter police officer then gave it to a female officer,
Sergeant Schloss, I believe you testified her name was, correct?
Right. She was in front of me. He was in front of me.
That's
what I recall.
Q. And then, that sergeant actually took that video camera and
put it into the police
vehicle that the defendant was in, correct?
A.They walked away out of my sight and then walked to the
Street and behind me.
Q. But you did see them put that video in the trunk of the car,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You saw the female officer put that in the trunk of the car,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the shorter officer wasn't with her?
A. That's right.
Q. Now, the shorter officer, you never saw him remove anything
from the camera,
correct?
A. No.
Q. And you saw that lady officer just -- actually, Judge, I will
withdraw that
question.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: May I am a moment?
THE COURT: Sure.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Judge, I would tender the witness.
MR. DE VLAMING: A few more questions, Judge.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Dr. Zizic, the prosecutor had brought up a prior meeting with
the police. They
were called for the following week?
A. uh-huh.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection. I didn't bring that up.
MR. DE VLAMING: Sure, she did.
THE COURT: She didn't say anything about a meeting. There
was a conversation with
the police so ask the question.
MR. DE VLAMING: All right.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Was there a prior attempt to get the money the week before?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And was it successful or unsuccessful?
A. It was unsuccessful.
Q. Why?
A. We were banned from entering.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Judge, I am going to object.
MR. DE VLAMING: Judge, I think it goes to why the phone
call was made.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Go ahead.
A. There was a bouncer or sergeant of arms at the door who said
that we could not enter.
Q. And from there, was arrangements then made for the week after
for the 25th of January?
We had called the police there on the street and the police
came and we asked the police
to help us make this appointment and they did. They said that,
you know, that they would.
Q. And was it then arranged that you would come the next week?
A. That's right.
Q. And that's why Mr. Bunker was called to ease this ability to
get your money back?
A. Right.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained as to that.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. The prosecutor asked you if felt that the church owed you some
money. Tell us why?
A. There was money that we gave for courses that we hadn't
received. We wanted our money
back. It was free payment. It was, you know, payment for courses
and we never received, the courses.
Q. And they refused and barred you?
A. Right.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. DE VLAMING: That's all.
THE COURT: Anything else?
RECROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. WRONKIEWICZ:
Q. All right. Sir, you just testified that YOU went to the Church
of Scientology
the week before, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And it's your testimony that there was some bouncer at the
door the week before,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew that you couldn't go to the Church of Scientology
without making an
appointment, correct?
A. Right.
Q. And it's your testimony that there were police officers there
on that date, correct?
A. We called the police. That's right.
Q. And the police officer arrived, her name was Officer Cuddy,
correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It's your testimony that the officer made an appointment with
the Church of Scientology for you?
A.They said that they would help us make the appointment so we
could come by safe conditions.
Q. What do you mean by -- but the officer did not make that
appointment for you. That's not what are you saying?
A. No. We made the appointment, the 7:30 the following week.
Q. You called to make the appointment?
A. We made it right then and there in person.
Q. But the officer did not make the appointment for you?
A. No.
Q. And the officer never told you to call the police when you
went there the next week, correct?
A.They said to call ten minutes ahead of time before we had our
appointment.
Q. The officer told you to call the police department before you
went to your meeting?
A. Uh-huh.
Q. That's your testimony?
A. Yes.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Nothing further.
MR. DE VLAMING: Two questions, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. Before you made the request for the money, could you in the
past, could you walk right into
the Church of Scientology?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection. Beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. DE VLAMING:
Q. And this sergeant of arms that you described, was that a
police officer sergeant in
arms or somebody that's a Scientology?
A. Scientology.
MR. DE VLAMING: That's the only questions I have.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: No, Judge.
Barbara Zizic Trial Testimony
BARBARA R. BRISK ZIZIC
called as a witness herein, was examined and testified as
follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. de VLAMING
Q. Please tell us your name.
A. Dr. Barbara R. Brisk Zizic.
Q. What city do you reside in?
A. Chicago.
Q. Are you employed?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I am a dentist.
Q. Is William Zizic your husband?
A. Yes, he is.
Q. And do you practice dentistry together?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. How long have you been a dentist?
A. A dentist, since 1980.
Q. Was there a time, Dr. Zizic, when you were a member of the
Church of Scientology?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Approximately what time period was that?
A. 1994 or '96. I don't remember. In the early '90's 'til 1997.
So 1994 'til 1997.
Q. And was there a time when you were trying to get out of the
Church of Scientology?
A. Oh, yes, there was.
Q. And in that effort to get out, was there a request for a
refund of a substantial sum of money you had given the Church?
A. Oh, yes, there was.
Q. What was the purpose of the money given?
A. It was to buy courses.
Q. All right. Had some not been taken and so you had requested
money back?
A. Oh, definitely. A lot.
Q. And in your -- well, first of all, was it returned to you
immediately?
A. No.
Q. About how long a time did you make that effort?
A. Couple years, a year. Over a year, well over a year.
Q. And was there at least on one occasion that you placed that
request in writing?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. And do you know a Mary Anne Ahmad?
A. Yes, I do.
MR. de VLAMING: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MS. KING: We object to the point showing a letter.
THE COURT: Well, he can show it to her.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Dr. Zizic, do you recognize what's been marked Defendant's
Exhibit No. 2?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you the author of that letter?
A. Yes, I am.
MS. KING: Your Honor, I want to know is he doing this to
refresh her recollection?
THE COURT: Let's see if he asks another question. Then you
may make an objection.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. And did you send this letter to Miss Ahmad?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was there a time, Dr. Zizic, where you had gone to the Church
of Scientology, let's say approximately a week before January 25
of the year 2000, with your husband in order to obtain monies back?
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Were you successful?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. We weren't allowed --
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. She can answer.
THE WITNESS: We weren't allowed to -- we had a scheduled
appointment and we weren't allowed to go in and have that
appointment.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. On the basis of that, was there arrangements made with any
agency to come back the
week later?
We had the Chicago police, the squad car that came, that we
called over to go inside and make the appointment for the
following week at the Church of Scientology.
Q. So you discussed with the police that you would come back the
following week on the 25th?
A. Yes.
Q. And that was also scheduled with the organization itself as
well?
A. Oh, yes. That was the time that they said we should come.
Q. Now did you make any efforts to contact anyone during that
week's period of time to bring them with you on January 25?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. What did you do?
A. We contacted Mark Bunker.
Q. Okay. How did you reach Mr. Bunker?
A. We were given the name of Mark Bunker through Patty Sullivan
who --
Q. Who is Patty Sullivan?
A. She is the wife of a dentist that sold his practice and gave
all his money to the Church of Scientology.
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. So you reached Mr. Bunker's name through a third party and
contacted Mr. Bunker, what, to come with you?
We wanted the whole event documented. We were afraid to go
in by ourselves.
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor. It's non-responsive.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Why were you afraid to go in?
A. Because we know -- I had another friend tell me that they will
keep you down in the basement --
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. So Mr. Bunker agreed to come in and document the discussions
you would have with the Church about the return of your money?
A. Right. We wanted witnesses and documentation.
Q. And did you know Mr. Bunker to be a man capable of video
taping? Was he a videographer?
Yes, yes, he is a video -- he has a Zenu TV and he is a video
reporter. (phonetic)
Q. And when he arrived in town on or about the 25th, were there
any interviews done of you and your husband by Dr. -- excuse me,
by Mr. Bunker that day?
A.Yes, he interviewed my husband and he interviewed me, yes, and
he interviewed us together.
Q. And did you have a microphone or wireless mike placed upon you
for that purpose?
A. At my house at the interview.
Q. Okay.
A. Yes.
Q. Approximately how long did that interview last?
A. I don't remember exactly because it could have been a long
time, like an hour, half-hour to an hour because I started telling my
whole tale and I got talking and I don't remember exactly.
Q. Okay.
A. But it was long.
Q. So he documented your -- what was bringing up to the time that
you were going to go to the Church to discuss the matter?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you tell me when -- well, strike that. Was there a particular time
that you had agreed to go to the Church of Scientology on the 25th
of January?
A. I think 7:30.
Q. In the evening?
A. Yes.
Q. Go ahead and tell us, when you arrived, tell us what you did
and how you arrived at the
Church door?
A. We parked on the street parallel to the Catholic church there.
I don't know the name of the street. And then there is a little
diner called S and W on the corner. So first we drove by and
there were people standing all over the street on both sides. The
street itself that the Church of Scientology is on comes to a
diagonal and there is a restaurant here and then the Church is inner
from that from that first restaurant. So we parked. We drove by
first and everyone was outside.
MS. KING: Objection to the narrative at this time.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. What do you mean everybody was outside?
A. Well, Church members that I recognized were posted outside
every maybe six feet.
MS. KING: Objection to the term posted.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Did you recognize these individuals as being members of the
Church of Scientology?
A. Some of them, yes.
Q. Now at some point in time you got out of your vehicle. Was it
you, your husband and Mr. Bunker?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. Did you walk towards the Church of Scientology in the street
or sidewalk or what?
MS. KING: Object.
THE WITNESS: We walked on sidewalk and then we had to cross
the street and then we were walking up the sidewalk.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Who, if you could tell us, as you walked up the sidewalk, who
was first? How did you do that? In what order were you?
A. Bill is in front of me. I was behind Bill. Mark was behind me.
I think it was filming us. I don't remember exactly, but I think he
was filming us while we were walking up.
Q. Okay. Did Bill get to the front door?
A. Well, he was filming us when we were at the front door. Bill
put his hand on the door. I was behind Bill. Mark was behind me
and he said, before you go in, I want to talk to you --
MS. KING: Objection, hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Okay. When your husband got to the front door, did Mr. Bunker
get your attention by saying
anything to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you then turn around?
A. Yes, I turned around.
Q. Based upon his voice?
A. Yes.
Q. How was he holding the camera at that point?
A. He was filming me so he was holding it up.
Q. Did you see anything on the camera that lead you to believe
that he was filming?
A. It's got -- it's got a red light. I don't know where, but it
had a red light on. So
then you know the camera is on.
Q. Okay. When he said something to you and you turned around,
what did you see next?
A. I saw two men rush from an acute angle. Like if I am standing
here and Mark is here,
they came from an acute angle and just ran and just jumped him
like that. They just ran and
jumped him.
Q. When you say jumped him, describe that. What do you mean by
that?
A. They ran and grabbed him.
Q. Okay. They didn't take him to the ground?
A. No, no. He was standing with the camera trying to hold on to
it.
Q. Okay. And let me show you what's been marked as Defendant's
Exhibit No. 7.
A. Okay.
Q. Do you recognize this photograph?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What does it show?
A. It shows the north door. There is two entrances. It shows the
north entry way to the
Church of Scientology on Lincoln.
Q. Could you use this photograph and showing to the jury where
your husband was, where you were
and where Mr. Bunker was at the time that those two men came up
to him?
A. I could, but, you know, I need -- if could if I had to, yeah.
Q. Well, let me ask you this. Let's do this. Showing you what's
been marked Defendant's Exhibit 5
for identification. Would that help even more?
A. Yeah.
MR. de VLAMING: Judge, may the witness step down?
THE COURT: Sure. You may step down.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. All right, if you could, the lower of the two which is
Defendant's Exhibit 7 shows the actual
entry way. This shows the sidewalk on No. 6. Is that correct?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. I want you to stand so that you are not blocking the view
here. Could you show us where
your husband was, where you were and where Mr. Bunker was at the
time the two men came out and from
what area you saw the men come to?
A. I just want to make sure, this is the north door. This is the
south door. My husband had
his hand on the door. I am behind my husband about here in the
vestibule because he is going to open
the door.
I am here, kind of like right here and then Mark is
right here, back here, filming. And I
turned around. The two men ran. It seemed like somewhere in here.
They ran out and they had black
jackets.
Q. They had black jackets on. Is this the area where they
originally met Mr. Bunker?
A. Oh, yeah, uh-huh.
Q. Okay, you can have a seat. Did either of the two men identify
themselves?
A. No.
Q. What did you do when you saw Mr. Bunker with the camera on his
shoulder being approached by
those two men very quickly?
A. I was upset. I was frightened. I didn't know who they were and
he came to document this
meeting and I was afraid. I mean, I was shocked. They just --
Q. What did --
A. I yelled. I said, who are you? What are you doing here? Who
are you? Why are you doing this?
What's the matter?
Q. Did you know who they were or what they were at that point in
time?
A. No. They just came black clothes, jumped him. I didn't know.
So you can imagine, you know,
how frightened you get. You don't know who that is, who they are.
Q. Did either one of the men say anything to you when you said
who are you?
A. Well, I asked for identification. I said, who are you? Who are
you? They said, we are
police. I said, well, I need to see identification. You know,
because I am used to the uniforms. We had
asked the other police to meet them there, the ones with the
squad cars and the uniforms and these didn't have.
They said they were police. I said I need to see a
badge. So one showed me a badge, but
the face was scraped off.
Q. Scraped off the badge or the identification?
A. By badge, I mean the picture badge, the picture of him, his
identification. So I said, no,
I don't believe that you are a real police. And so the other -
do you want me to say?
Q. Go ahead.
A. I asked the other one, what's your name? And he told me, Joe
Blow.
Q. Let me stop you here. Can you identify them by name or by one
being larger or smaller?
A. The tall policeman had the badge on his hip and he showed it
to me and that's the one that
had the face scratched off.
So I said to the other one, I want to see a badge. He
wasn't showing me a badge or an ID.
I wanted to see his ID, you know, to see if he had a picture.
He said, no. And I said, what's your name? And he said,
Joe Blow. So I was very
frightened because what kind of a name is Joe Blow? That's not a
real name.
Q. What was happening then when you were talking to the two of
them?
A. They were holding Mark trying to get his camera and holding
him and telling him to turn it
off. You know, you're going to be arrested. Turn it off. We are
police.
Q. What happened next? What did Mark do?
A. Mark set the camera down because one pried his thumb back. So
he set it down.
Q. Do you know what happened to the camera after that?
A. No.
Q. Okay.
A. I know it's -- I know that one of the two policemen had it.
MS. KING: Objection, your Honor. She already said she
didn't know what happened to the camera.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. After you saw it on the ground, that was in the course of
events when you saw it?
A. Yes.
Q. Who had it next time you saw it?
A. The next time I saw it, it was -- I am not going to say the
name he told me, but it was the
short policeman that had it. That's what I remember.
Q. Okay. When you arrived on the sidewalk area, did anyone from
the Church of Scientology, in your presence, tell Mark Bunker that
he had to leave the premises?
A. No.
Q. Was there anything posted on the outside of the building that
told -- instructed Mark Bunker
that he was not welcome there?
A. Nothing. Can I say something?
THE COURT: Ma'am, wait for your lawyer to ask a question.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Did you see Mr. Bunker being handcuffed?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Tell us what happened in that regard.
A. Well, the policeman took out his handcuffs and Mark put out
his hands and he handcuffed him.
Q. And did you hear Mr. Bunker say anything in relation to his
camera?
By then the other squad car came up and I was telling those
policemen my story. So I don't remember.
Q. Up until the time that Mr. Bunker was handcuffed, did you know
those two men to be law enforcement officers?
A. No.
MR. de VLAMING: One moment, Judge.
Q. Dr. Zizic, when your husband was at the front door opening it
or attempting to open it, were you behind him and you said Mr.
Bunker was behind you?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Bunker get to the area of the vestibule
and step on even the tiling?
A. No. I was on it.
Q. Did he ever enter Church property inside the building?
A. No.
MR. de VLAMING: That's all.
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MS. KING
Q. Good afternoon, Dr. Zizic. You testified you were formerly a
member of the Church of Scientology?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. Both you and your husband didn't want to be members of the
Church any more?
A. Right.
Q. And you had given them some money and wanted a refund?
A. Right.
Q. You were having some problems receiving that refund?
A. Yes.
Q. And it took you a while to get the refund?
A. Yes.
Q. It's fair to say you weren't happy with the Church at that
time?
A. Right.
Q. Okay. And you had been there previously about a week before.
Correct?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. And you were told you had to make an appointment?
A. I had an appointment for that evening.
Q. You were told you had to make another appointment and you made
an appointment for January 25?
A. The police made the appointment. I didn't.
Q. The officer you talked about that night was Officer Cuddy,
correct?
A. I don't remember.
Q. And that officer, it's your testimony an officer there made an
appointment for you?
A. Yes.
Q. So you knew that you needed an appointment to go to the
Church, right, you and your husband for the next week? You
were aware of that?
A. I was aware that I had an appointment.
Q. Okay. And you were aware that the appointment was for you and
Dr. Zizic, correct, Dr.
William Zizic your husband, correct? For the two of you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were aware that it was not for Mark Bunker, correct?
A. No.
Q. In fact, you also called the police before you came that day,
correct?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. So you were expecting some trouble?
A. No.
Q. Even though you had an appointment?
A. I wanted witnesses that we were there.
Q. So you called the police ten minutes before just to have
witnesses that you were there?
A. The police that we talked to the week before?
Q. Uh-huh.
A. They said they would come again.
Q. Those police officers said they would come again?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they tell you to call them before coming?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't remember their names of who they were?
A. I think -- I don't. I might have it written down at home.
Q. You said that you wanted this whole event documented on what
was happening, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And so you called Mr. Bunker as a videographer. Correct?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. He is not a member of the press to your knowledge, right?
A. Right.
Q. And you didn't call an attorney to come with you, right? Just
Mr. Bunker?
A. I spoke to attorneys, but I didn't have them come with me.
Q. Your testimony was that you were walking northbound, right, on
Lincoln Avenue towards
the Church?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. The order went your husband, yourself and Mark Bunker.
Correct?
A. My husband, me, Mark, yes.
Q. Okay. You all arrived and parked the car together. Right?
A. Hm-hmm.
THE COURT: Ma'am, you have to answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, yes.
BY MS. KING:
Q. But you walked up Lincoln Avenue in a single file line?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And how wide is the sidewalk at about that area?
A. I don't know.
Q. Could it be approximately 12 feet wide?
A. I don't know.
Q. As you were walking, you parked on -- did you park on
Wellington? Do you recall that
street?
A. It's the street that's parallel to the Catholic church.
Q. Okay.
A. If that's Wellington, I don't know.
Q. That's where you parked is that street so the three of you had
to walk up to the Church.
Were you talking as you walked up to the Church?
A. We were looking around.
Q. Okay. You were looking around, but you weren't talking to each
other?
A. We might have been.
Q. You might have been. You weren't talking about why Mr. Bunker
was going to be taping that
night?
A. I don't remember.
Q. So as you are walking up and might have been talking, you are
still walking in a single file line?
A. I think so.
Q. Okay. And when you got to the front of the building, you
stated your husband was all the
way at the door, right?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. And you were just inside the little vestibule and Mark Bunker
was behind you?
A. Hm-hmm.
THE COURT: You have to answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
BY MS. KING:
Q. You do have to say yes or no.
A. Yes.
Q. When you were walking in a single file line, you guys are
about four feet from each other
as well. Your husband is at the door. You are at the entrance and
Mr. Bunker is back on the sidewalk?
A. I don't know the exact measurements.
Q. But there was a distance between you as you were walking
single file to the Church?
A. Yes.
Q. Suddenly -- you also testified you saw members of the Church
standing around, right?
A. When we drove by before.
Q. But when you walked up?
A. No one was there.
Q. And as you were walking single file with space between you,
suddenly two men came out and
grabbed Mr. Bunker?
A. That's right.
Q. And you don't know which direction they were coming?
A. I know which direction.
Q. Which direction?
A. They ran out from the north at an acute angle.
Q. But you don't know what angle but they were running from the
street?
A. They weren't running from the street.
Q. Down the sidewalk?
A. They ran across the sidewalk and just jumped him.
Q. Okay. And did you hear these men say anything to him? Did they
ever ask him, are you
Mark Bunker? They just grabbed him?
A. I don't remember them asking him that. Maybe they did. I don't
remember that.
Q. Okay. But they didn't grab your husband, right?
A. He was up in the vestibule.
Q. They only grabbed Mark Bunker?
A. He was out on the sidewalk.
Q. And you wanted to see ID of these police officers, right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. In fact, you stated you were upset and you were scared.
Correct?
A. Correct.
Q. When you were asking for this identification, you were loud,
correct?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Isn't it fair to say you were giving these police officers a
hard time only because you
didn't know who they were?
A. I was giving the two men that rushed Mark a hard time because
I didn't know who they were.
Q. These two men were handcuffing Mark, right?
A. That was after.
Q. Okay.
A. That was quite a while after.
Q. While they were handcuffing him, you were still asking
questions and wanting to know what's
going on, right?
A. I wouldn't say that.
Q. What were you doing then?
A. Well, how long are you saying the handcuffing took place?
Q. I am asking you while they were handcuffing him, what were you
doing?
A. Watching.
Q. Just watching him handcuff him. You weren't saying anything?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Okay. They never asked you to leave the premises, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. They never said a word to you. They never arrested you, right?
A. Right.
Q. They never said a word to your husband either, right?
A. Well, they threatened to arrest me. Yes, they did.
Q. Oh, they threatened to arrest you?
A. Hm-hmm.
MS. AIMEN: Objection, Judge, to repeating narrative.
THE COURT: Overruled.
BY MS. KING:
Q. Your testimony is also when these men came out of nowhere and
jumped on Mark Bunker he just put his hands out and let them
handcuff him. Is that your testimony?
A. No.
Q. Wasn't that your testimony on direct when asked that Mark just
let him put his hands out
and let them handcuff?
A. You said more than that. It's the prior statement I said no
to.
Q. My statement was it's your testimony that these men came out
of nowhere. That's your testimony, right?
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. And then they jumped him. You didn't know what was going on?
A. Right.
Q. And at one point Mark just put his hands out and let them
arrest him?
A. After he saw the handcuffs.
Q. Okay. After he saw the handcuffs. At this time had you seen
any ID?
A. No.
Q. So men that haven't shown him ID just took out handcuffs and
Mark put his hands out and let them arrest him?
A. He said they had handcuffs so they were police.
Q. So he knew they were police because they had handcuffs?
A. Hm-hmm.
THE COURT: Ma'am, you have to answer yes or no.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MS. KING:
Q. Okay. Okay. And you saw that Mr. Bunker had a video camera
with him that night. Is that right? That was the whole purpose of
him coming there?
A. Correct.
Q. Did you see what happened to the video tape when they were
placing these handcuffs on Mr.
Bunker?
A. No.
Q. Okay. And you -- do you know -- you did testify that you saw
the video tape in the shorter
officer's hands, right?
MR. de VLAMING: I am going to object.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
THE COURT: Sustained. Are you talking about video tape or
video camera?
MS. KING: I apologize.
Q. You said you saw the video camera in the shorter officer's
hands?
A. I don't remember which one. It was one of them, but I don't
remember which one.
Q. Did you see it in a police officer's hands?
A. Yes.
Q. You don't know how that camera got in his hands?
A. No.
Q. Did you see your husband with the video camera?
A. Hm-hm. I was --
Q. When you saw the video camera in the police officer's hands,
did you see the police
officer remove anything from that camera?
A. No.
MS. KING: Nothing further, your Honor.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MR. de VLAMING: Couple questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. de VLAMING
Q. Prosecutor asked you or she said to you they never asked you
to leave the premises.
Do you recall her question when she said they never asked you to
leave the premises?
A. Right.
Q. After Mark was taken away, were you asked to come into the
Church of Scientology then?
A. Yes, I was.
MS. WRONKIEWICZ: Objection.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Would you go?
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: No. I wouldn't go because I was afraid. If I
go down there, who is going to
know?
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. You also indicated on cross examination that the reason you
called the police the week
before --
A. Hm-hmm.
Q. -- you said to the prosecutor, I wanted witnesses that you
were there. What do you mean
witnesses that you were there?
A. I wanted -- I wanted to do things in a lawful way so I could
have the police there to
witness whatever might go on. The fact if I decided to go down
into the Church, I wanted a
witness that I went in and a witness that we came out. That's
what I wanted.
Q. In point of time, when did the police, the squad car police,
when did they get there? What
was going on when the squad car police, uniformed police, came
up?
MS. KING: I am objecting to beyond the scope of cross at
this time.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. de VLAMING:
Q. Last question, Dr. Zizic. When you were watching the activity
between the two men with Mr.
Bunker, was Mr. Bunker ever given the opportunity to walk away?
A. No.
Q. Why?
A. They were holding him. They were holding
on to him.
Q. So if he even wanted to walk away, he couldn't?
A. No, he couldn't walk away.
MR. de VLAMING: Thank you. That's all.
THE COURT: Anything else?
MS. KING: I have nothing based on that, your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down. Call a witness.
Click here to see the
Zizics' video interview with Mark Bunker.
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