Ursula Caberta at the Lisa McPherson Trust
Tuesday, JULY 25, 2000
Transcribed by Phaedrus (firstname.lastname@example.org; http://www.lycanon.org)
Transcribed August 29, 2000; send any corrections to
Transcribed from LMT video at
[Comments from transcriber are in brackets like this]
["SB:" marks remarks by Stacy Brooks]
["UC:" marks untranslated remarks by Ursula Caberta]
["UC(T):" marks translated remarks by Ursula Caberta; translation
points marked by slashes]
["BM:" marks remarks by Bob Minton]
["[word?]" marks uncertain word on tape]
["[xxx]" marks words that could not be understood at all on tape]
[Time marks given as minutes:seconds in parentheses; for example,
�03:30� means 3 minutes, 30 seconds from beginning of that part]
[Most pauses and "uh's" deleted]
[Start of part 1]
SB: These letters are letters from Scientologists in Germany, who were
asked to write these letters by one of the top Scientology, uh,
intelligence operatives, whose name is Kurt Weilund[?]. He's in the
part of Scientology which is called the Office of Special Affairs
International. And he orchestrated this campaign for this German
Scientologist who was having tax troubles, to get granted asylum in the
United States to escape these tax troubles in Germany. And the way they
did it was to have Scientology business owners, uh, German Scientology
business owners write letters to this woman, Antje Victore, saying that
they refused to give her a job because she was a Scientologist, and in
Germany you can't have work if you're a Scientologist. And they wrote
the letters in English, so they could be presented to a judge in the
United States, um, because of course a judge in the United States can't
read German. So they kindly provided them in English for the judge and
made it easy for her to get asylum.
(01:18) This letter here is basically a thank-you letter from Antje
Victore to one of the people who helped her by writing a letter saying
that she could not have a job. And she thanked him for writing a
letter saying that she couldn't have a job so that she could get asylum
in the United States.
(01:40) Just as a note, one of the things that you have in your packs
is a letter from attorney John Merritt[?] to the managing assistant US
attorney in the middle district of Florida in Tampa, alerting him to
this fraud and this perjury.
(02:00) She's very much hoping that the campaign that Scientology is
currently organizing to create a rift between the German government and
the United States government will not be successful, and that the
United States will recognize, as Germany has, the threat to our
freedoms in this country that the Scientology organization poses,
particularly to free speech, which has been demonstrated during her
visit here to the United States.
[Question and answer session begins]
[Questions simply marked as "Q:" unless name of questioner given]
Q: (02:26) I'm with the St. Petersburg Times newspaper. I was invited
last night to speak with some Scientology officials down the street, as
well as a couple of local Scientologists, who said-former citizens of
Germany-who say there are very real problems with Germans to find
employment in that country because of the sect filter and because of
how the sect filter is spilling over, not only into public
organizations but into the private sector as well. Can you respond to
UC(T): (03:05) 'Sect filter' is a word coined by the Scientologists. /
Because it would mean that there are many, many groups that could be
called 'sects' and it would be a [xxx] this filter would be used for
(03:49) This declaration, this issue has been developed in her
department, / the declaration that was instituted on the demand of
different companies in Germany / These demands from these companies
were based on intents of Scientologist members to introduce into these
companies technologies from Ron Hubbard. / (04:57) And these type of
technologies professed by Ron Hubbard are in contradiction of business
management policies and techniques in Germany, and can very well be
judged by this lady because she has studied economics and business. /
(05:35) And the goal and aim is, and can be read in the book of Ron
Hubbard, / and in the directions that he has written and given, / for
members of WISE, / to introduce the ideology of Ron Hubbard and that
technology into the different companies in Germany. / (06:11) The
ideology is the technology [xxx]. / And that does not stick to the
other, the policies in the companies, at least as she was told by
management of those companies. /
(06:35) There were several incidences additionally in these companies,
that had led to the dismissal of the Scientology members in and
employees of those companies. / That had nothing to do with them being
members of Scientology. / [Acted?] like Scientologists, / (07:11) but
they tried to influence other employees and management to the extent
that they became, should become members of Scientology, and eventually
the whole company would become a member of WISE. / Many did not want to
see that happen. /
(07:44) The analysis of the department has shown that many people came
to Scientology because they had been invited into seminars and training
workshops, on / communications training. / And that's the same type of
communications training that you do in the Scientology, so-called
church. / (08:27) It's a way to cross a bridge into Scientology. / And
many companies just wanted to do their own business, wanted to pursue
their own business interests and did not want to become involved into
any Scientology. /
(09:01) So the managers of those companies, these WISE companies,
companies that are members of WISE, offer that type of training /
without saying what it's all about. / In particular, without mentioning
that the aim is that they become Scientology members and eventually
members of the organization [and?] church. /
(09:47) These companies came to the department, to this lady, in order
to ask and inquire about how to protect themselves. / On the one hand,
wondering about how to defend themselves against being subverted by
Scientologists in their own house. / But also to protect their own
rights and decision-making process, because once you are a member of
Scientology and you have these as employees, the whole thinking process
changes. And therefore intends to change the decision process in the
(11:01) Therefore we have developed this declaration which members of
Scientology or companies may not sign. Must not sign. / And it
functions and it works. / (11:24) And this declaration, you will not
read the word Scientology. / It only is about the technology of L. Ron
(11:47) So many companies who want to have their employees participate
in training seminars, but not be in the danger of participating in
Scientology seminars, / and not become Scientologists, / and therefore
and thereby protect their own employees, / And these companies sign and
the employees sign this declaration that they will not do and
participate in any seminars based on the technology of Ron Hubbard. /
(12:49) And this is falsely being converted into a question of
religion. / I've never heard from Scientologists that the technology of
Ron Hubbard is their ideology. / Their religion, I'm sorry. / As
internally they're always talking about technology, but it's never been
heard to the outside in public that their seminars are religious. / So
participation in one of these communications seminars being a religious
seminar is unheard of. /
(14:14) Two members of Scientology have sued her department / because
of this declaration. / And Scientology Germany followed suit. / So
therefore it became clear that by going against this declaration which
does not mention Scientology at all, [xxx] the Scientology
organizations and the members involved, it became clear what the
connection is. / The church, the Scientology church, has filed the
suit, which is nonsense in respect that nobody will come to-get the
idea that they are involved in the communication seminars. / In
business [and economics?]. / As Scientology church. / And so there in
those cases, and everybody knows that they're working according to the
technology of L. Ron Hubbard and they will not be presented with that
declaration. / (16:12) And that's the way the court in Hamburg also saw
it. / And declined to review that suit. / As non-acceptable. / The
Scientology suit is an unacceptable suit. / Those two members have had
suit, / also were denied the suit, the demand. / Because the court did
not see / that they were hindered by any way in doing their duties and
performing their job in Germany. / Because nobody forces them to do
their jobs and services according to the technology of Ron Hubbard. /
(17:44) Therefore the discussion around this suit and this issue has
not been terminated yet. / Scientology has appealed against that
decision. / The decision is pending. It'll be interesting to see what
members of Scientology will argue, for communications seminars to have
a religious context.
[End of part 1; start of part 2]
Q: [The?] buildings that house Scientology personnel. Is it� On the
front they call it the Church of Scientology?
UC(T): The building does show 'Church of Scientology'. / However, the
companies, WISE companies, do not show that.
Q: (00:37) So when they come for your assistance, these Scientologists
who want to get out, do they say that Scientology is a religion, or is
it something else?
UC(T): Very interesting and very good question. Because not one of
those members� / None of these members has been in Scientology because
of religious reasons. / One of the highest former members that left the
organization in Hamburg specifically declared that religion has nothing
to do with it; it is only business purposes.
Q: (01:49) Could you delineate or identify those activities of
Scientology that the German government considers illegal or reflective
of political extremism?
UC(T): In Germany the government has to � prove and analyze whether a
political organization / tends into what direction, according to their
writings and their publications. / (02:47) So these internal directions
given by the founder of any organizations to their members is the most
important priority to be analyzed in order to judge what they are. / It
has to be proven that these guidelines and directions are followed. /
(03:17) So you first want to prove� want to analyze and investigate
whether the ideology, directions and everything being put forth by the
founder and the organization their members may go against the
democratic freedom in the country. / (03:49) That has to be seen, also,
in the light of the German past, / both West and East, I'm a former
West and East German. / (04:02) So you will take a very close look at
any ideology that professes the so-called superman, in a type of
ideology that's being professed here. And that's an ideology we have
seen in Germany before. / We had enough of that. / (04:36) That's a
particular area of discussion that may be difficult with American
citizens, / because the United States has never gone through an
experience like this. / In Germany and in Europe it's a lot easier. /
Q: (05:05) What has Scientology done to you personally to obstruct your
efforts to investigate the organization? What have they done to you
UC(T): That's not important. I'm not the center of attention.
Same questioner: I understand�
UC(T) (05:26) On a daily basis, something's going on. /Investigation of
her whole life, down to when she was born, ten years old. / They
investigate, in these investigations they found a person who as a
child, nine years old, ten years old, had been stealing a couple of
apples in a farm.
UC: Me. (chuckle)
Q: (06:05) Is your department just for Hamburg, or is it countrywide?
UC: Now, countrywide and Europe-wide.
Q: Europe-wide. [Well?]
UC(T): Very close connection, Europe-wide, Germany-wide, Europe-wide,
and close connection [with?] France. / Everybody looks to Germany in
this matter, but in France things are really happening on Scientology.
Q: (06:40) Hopefully, when the new President of the United States is
elected, he won't be so infatuated with John Travolta.
(laughter; someone claps)
UC(T): You have a question?
UC: [xxx] I love this.
Q: You referred to the so-called Superman. Is that a reference to L.
Ron Hubbard, or to�?
UC(T): Superman is the ideology. / A reference to the book Mein Kampf.
/ Makes specific reference to the superiority of a person or people. /
(07:47) When you read Ron Hubbard's book, it becomes very clear very
fast that that's the same type of ideology of superiority. / And in
this respect, Germans are obviously much more sensitive to these
questions than America [would be?]. / When I read the first time of
this RPF project, / it became clear that they would have to have that
type of ideology as well. /
(08:46) The discussion yesterday came about that RPF, these types of
concentration camps that are possible here in the US, they are
impossible in Germany and Europe. / Absolutely impossible.
Q: (09:23) I had asked a question earlier about how Scientologists get
a job in Germany, and you ended by saying something about 'only in the
UC(T): Bavaria, a federal state in southern Germany, takes a little
longer, but when they do things they do them 100%. 110%.
UC(T): Members of Scientology do work in various state organizations as
teachers and in public offices. / (10:17) The problem is that these
people, particularly when they're teachers, immediately start their
communications training approach. / And then they find out that parents
are not very fond of that idea. / And then you have to talk about it. /
So Bavaria concluded, look, to prevent before something happens.
Q: (11:01) Can a Scientologist walk into the tax collectors' office in
Hamburg, and if qualified, get a job?
UC(T): Oh, sure, because he's not being asked whether he is in
Scientology or not. Anybody can go in and get the job. [xxx] [Nothing
you can do?]
Q: And if you find out later that he's a Scientologist, does that mean
that he's terminated from employment?
UC(T): No. No way. / (11:29) If he doesn't do his job, but becomes 90%
working during his job time in Scientology matters, then� / So that
doesn't make any difference to any person who has been employed, and
you later find out it's a Mafia person. [xxx] / [It's not a?] general
question, it's only the particular case.
Q: (12:10) So are you saying that, if the Scientologist starts to
impose their communication technology or Hubbard technology on fellow
employees or children in a school, then they lose their job?
UC(T): No. [xxx] / It's not automatically they lose their job, but the
matter will be investigated, then conclusions will be drawn from that.
/ So in Hamburg they didn't have a case, but in other federal states
there were some cases like this. But always with something really
happening to the children, with the children.
Q: (13:10) Well, in the United States, if a public teacher imposes her
Christian beliefs or teaches the Bible on the students, they're fired.
Q: (13:24) I think your answers concerning this whole issue of
Scientologists being able to get a job or not get a job is probably the
most misunderstood element here. When, if at all, does a Scientologist
go into a German company and get refused a job? When, if at all?
UC(T): It doesn't exist like this. In other words, a person-even if
they come to a company and identify themselves as Scientologist-as long
as they qualify for the job, they will be hired. / Nothing to do with
being a Scientologist.
SB: (14:24) We're being told, I've been told by many Scientologists
there that have been coming up to me and complaining about my
friendship with you, that in Germany if they're a Scientologist they
can't get work.
UC (in German): Nonsense.
SB: That's what they're saying.
Q: Is that another lie [by?] the Scientologists?
UC: Absolute, yeah.
UC(T): (14:48) Some people in, many people have come but some she
knows, that have been coming over here. / All the people she knows that
live today here in this country or in the area, all people that have
problems because of tax evasion and other similar things where they
have been [sued?] by the courts.
SB: (15:24) And they're just saying, they're just saying, they're
saying that the problem was discrimination as a Scientologist. But it's
the same as this. [Stacy gestures, apparently towards Antje Victore
SB: That she's saying one thing but in fact it's something else.
UC: Yeah. Yeah.
Q: Since you're the most knowledgeable person� [interrupted by UC]
UC(T): I'm happy for whatever you know, because I've seen many people
on the streets [xxx] talk to her. / Told her, you know, that they lost
their job in Germany and couldn't work there. And she says okay, give
me your name and your address and I'll look that you get one over
there. / [xxx] [Won't give the name?] / Because she knows that person
knows that if she gives her name, then you dig a little bit into it,
the story is untrue. / (16:32) Also a campaign some years ago in
Germany that Scientologists could not get their children into regular
schools in Germany, / nonsense. / She's grateful for every child of a
Scientologist that goes to public schools and not attends Scientology
(17:06) Problem was, you know, that Scientologists wanted to found a
school that was run according to technology of Ron Hubbard. / And the
laws on private schools are very strict in Germany. / And the states
surrounding Hamburg that tried to do it and they were denied their
requests because they could not decide, when questioned by the state,
what kind of school they wanted to have-elementary school, middle
school, high school, couldn't answer the question. / And Ron Hubbard,
obviously they couldn't answer the question because they don't
differentiate it in Hubbard's technology. /
(18:25) And they went over further north to Denmark, / because the laws
to initiate private schools are much easier. / So all children from
Hamburg and surrounding states go attend that school in Denmark. /
[xxx] / They had to tell these people, these parents that they could be
sued under German law, / because there is the requirement that you have
to attend school in Germany. In Germany. / So the Danish school,
according to German school law, is not recognized in Germany. / So they
can be sued by any court in Germany.
Q: (19:44) Well, in the United States, if you want to have a private
school, you still have to comply with state law.
UC: Good. (chuckle)
Q: Just like in Germany. But you're so knowledgeable about Scientology,
have you been asked to testify before the State Department or any
congressional committee in the United States about what really is
happening in Germany?
UC (in German): No.
SB: (20:08) In fact, they've refused to let her testify. We've asked
them, we've, we've, we've urged them, we've told them her credentials,
and they've refused to let her.
Q: And that was in June.
SB: And that was in June.
Q: Congressional [xxx].
UC(T): Beginning of 1998, she had the opportunity to talk to members of
the Senate when she was over here� [UC appears to correct "Senate" to
"Congress"] Congress members, when she was over here with the
respective Congress members from Germany.
Q: (21:01) What is the current relationship between United States and
Germany because of what Scientology has lied about?
UC(T): German government as well as the Chancellor clearly follows what
the Supreme Court has said, that� [UC appeared to correct the
translator's use of "Chancellor" to "President"] President of Germany,
clearly follows that line that Scientology is not a�
UC(T): It is a political organization.
Q: Rather than a religion?
Translator: Rather than a religion.
SB: (22:01) But what's happening, I can also answer you because I
attended a Congressional hearing, of the House International Relations
committee, which was absolutely orchestrated by Scientology. The entire
hearing room was filled with Scientologists, the people who testified
before the committee were hand-picked by Scientology, clearly because
they all talked about the terrible discrimination that Scientology is
suffering in Germany and France. The whole hearing was about the
discrimination that minority religions [crosses fingers while saying
'minority religions'] , with particular concentration on Scientology,
are suffering in Germany, France, Belgium and Austria. And there were
several committee members who have also clearly been briefed, by the
Scientologists, and are now demanding several things. One, they're
demanding economic sanctions from the World Trade Organization against
Germany and France, for their positions specifically on Scientology.
They're demanding censure by the United Nations, and they're pushing
two bills specifically condemning, that would specifically condemn
Germany and France, and Austria and Belgium, for their position on
Scientology. Of religious persecution.
Q: And they ask the President to censure Germany.
Q: In that bill.
SB: And they've asked, yes, that the President of the United States
censure Germany for Germany's position on Scientology.
Q: It's amazing.
[End of part 2; start of part 3]
[Note that, during approx. the first five minutes of this part, the
translator is not translating, and UC is speaking herself in English.]
BM: Going back to another issue for clarification purposes, when you're
talking about the technology of L. Ron Hubbard as it relates to a WISE
company or its involvement in German companies, I believe you're
speaking about the so-called management technology of L. Ron Hubbard.
UC: Yes. But it's all the same. Management technology, [xxx]
technology, all the same.
BM: Well, but I think it's important to make a distinction, because
there is an educational technology of L. Ron Hubbard as well as a
UC: But it's the same. All the same.
SB: Yeah, that's the same as�
UC: All the same. All of it. All starts-
SB: What she's not talking about, what they're not talking about, is
the auditing technology.
UC: No. Auditing. The courses, all begin with the communication course.
It's studying technology, management technology, all the same. Not
SB: She's differentiating between admin and tech, is what she's
BM: OK. Well�
SB: Administrative technology is what they're talking about, not the
BM: OK. Because when you use the blanket term 'L. Ron Hubbard
technology', to me, that includes the so-called religious technology of
Scientology as well. And I think you have to be careful to distinguish
among those two different�
UC: (01:17) But for me, there is no religion technology in Scientology.
Nothing. Nothing. That's the difference. Nothing. There is nothing
what-but-that I'm thinking is religion. Nothing. Auditing is
BM: Well, here, in this country, there is a religious element that
people see and I-
SB: Well, they've been granted tax exemption as a religious
organization. That's 1993, [xxx-UC talks simultaneously] religion.
UC: But [xxx] They are from the US, they are from France, they are from
Germany. Nobody told me, nobody, that he feels auditing was a religion
thing. Nobody. And I believe the people came out from Scientology. I
don't believe the people are telling what they are doing right now, the
Scientology people, in. I, for me, all the people coming out to tell me
what happened with them in, they are the people I believe.
Q: (02:15) Can you estimate how many people you've talked to that came
out of Scientology?
UC: Oh, I don't know.
Q: Was it ten?
UC: No. More.
Q: A hundred?
UC: Yes. More. Yes, all and all the time.
Q: Is it more than a hundred?
UC: I think so, yes. [We don't?�]
Q: You don't count?
UC: No, we don't know, any statistic [on that?]
Q: I think you should do that. I think you should�
Q: [Is a?] statistics [xxx] [do some?] Hubbard technology there [xxx]
Q: I think you should also keep statistics on how many Scientologists�
UC: I must do that�
Q: � are working in Germany.
UC: I am doing right now, writing my new report for the Parliament in
Hamburg. I have to do it [xxx] [years?]
SB: (02:58) Well, you know, I think it's important to understand also,
you know, Germany doesn't really-and neither does France-feel the need
to defend itself against these, what they consider to be utterly
ridiculous charges that are being trumped up by Scientology. And I
think this visit of Ursula's to the United States is an important
experience because I think that, in Germany and France, they don't
realize that anyone in this country is taking what Scientology is
saying seriously. And I think it's important for Ursula to see that in
the United States Scientology has made, you know, has gotten a
foothold, in people's minds in what they're trying to position
themselves as. In the United States, people are buying it.
Q: (03:56) When you have a subcommittee having a congressional hearing
as you describe in June, then somebody needs to take it seriously.
SB: That's right.
Q: They're trying to do this PR campaign against Germany and against
France based on lies.
SB: And it's working to a certain� it's working. It's working. You
know, listen to what Bob just said. 'Oh, but you have to differentiate
between the technology and the religious beliefs.' There aren't any
religious beliefs. But even Bob Minton is saying it. I mean� [several
unintelligible voices] it's incredible to me. [unintelligible voices]
It blows me away when you say that.
UC: Hey, boss, we have to [learn?] a lot.
Q: (04:35) Are you here because you're on a personal visit as a
UC: Yes. Like a vacation.
Q: �are you here as a spokesperson for the German government?
UC: No. Like a vacation, and like, to talk about if it's possible to do
something like Lisa McPherson Trust in Hamburg too, or in [other
Q: (04:56) I'm still a little confused about when the declaration is
used in Germany. The so-called sect filter. When does that come into
SB: No, he means-
[translator begins translating again]
Q: When you're applying for a public job?
[UC begins speaking in German again]
UC(T): Only upon request, when [they?] ask for counsel. [xxx] / To
protect themselves, private companies come to her department-how can we
protect ourselves against what's going on? Then we suggest�
SB: So, in other words, a company comes to your office and says, I
need, I'm concerned to make sure that Scientologists don't infiltrate
UC (in English again): Yes.
SB: That's when it happens.
Q: What about applying for a government job. Do you have to sign [it
UC(T): The Hamburg government has introduced this declaration in order
to protect their employees.
Q: Just the Hamburg government, or �?
UC(T): Bavaria also. / Berlin. / The state of [xxx]� / The discussion
goes that the German government may [introduce?] that Germany-wide for
everybody who is offering seminars.
SB: But that's not a government job.
UC: No. We don't want� If you know the tricks of Scientology, and the�
UC(T): Very important and very clear to make a point. / From the German
point of view, we are dealing with an organization and ideology /
against our Constitution. / And it's a public requirement / public
necessity and requirement that this ideology not being distributed in
any state, any government. / We don't want a Germany again someday /
who introduces the ideology of a supreme minority of man. / And we do
not want again / any concentration camps / even if they're called,
UC: Thank you.
Q: (08:28) I've got a quick question� I was curious if your government,
or if there's any type of relief or assistance program that your
government may offer to people who are trying to get out of
UC(T): There's a network in Germany, / state departments, [government
departments?] / and different churches like the Catholic and the
Protestant churches, / and private initiatives mostly initiated by
former members. / And we have network around Germany where we can help
each other. / [Not a program yet?] / She's discussing with the German
government, what ways are there to make it a program. / Not only for
former members of Scientology, but also for other organizations [xxx].
Q: (10:11) Can you estimate how many Scientologists there are in
UC: 8000. 600 in Hamburg.
Q: (10:19) We have some WISE organizations that are very successful,
very powerful, very rich, here in Florida. Sterling Management, of
course, we have David [Singer's?] organization with chiropractors. We
have Concerned Businessmen. That's a front organization, a political
organization that is trying to gain political strength. And you have
Applied Scholastics. Are all those effective in Germany, and do our
local organizations have any impact throughout the world?
UC(T): Yes, they have tried to do it, but in Germany not very
successfully. / WISE groups are also only the front shell, in order to
break into society and break it up.
Q: (11:29) Okay, like David Singer, with his organization-chiropractic.
He contributed tremendous amounts of money to the defeat of our former
mayor, [Rita Garvey?]. And he was unsuccessful, his money went down the
drain, but they're throwing money at her campaign, and they have been
very active in this latest referendum on July 11 with the
Scientologists have everything at stake. If they had won, we would have
built the playground for them here at the Coachman Park, there would
have been no stopping them. But now, I think that they've suffered a
tremendous political defeat, and with the firing of the city manager, I
don't know that they'll ever be able in our generation to achieve what
they had achieved up till now. They'll� They've taken a terrific
Q: (12:36) I've got one� I'm sorry, I've got one last question. And
this might be rather sensitive, but are you aware of any investigations
by your government police or any political investigations-private
investigations-into the death of a Scientologist trying to leave
Scientology, similar to the death of Lisa McPherson? Or an
imprisonment, similar to her?
UC: No. In this form, not, no. Oh, we have a lot of deaths in members
of Scientology, but no. Not like this.
Q: A lot of deaths of members of the Church of Scientology?
UC(T): [xxx] You can't prove it, you know, but all of a sudden you find
these dead Scientologists in the street in Hamburg.
Q: Dead on the street?
UC(T): There was one lady found on the street, [xxx], she had some
court action against her, and she was-I don't know what you call it-cut
UC(T): And they found it on her, in particular they found a liver as
big as only, only the worst alcoholics have. / (14:28) It was kind of
unexplainable to the prosecutor, because supposedly they don't drink
any alcohol. / [Must be?] a connection with all the tablets and all the
different type of strange diets they have. / Very similar case in
Bavaria, / same symptoms [xxx] / So it's very clear [xxx] and it has
been proven before that practices by Scientologists are very unhealthy.
SB: (15:34)We're gonna end now, and everybody can have some coffee,
Voice: Thank you.
[end of part 3; end of transcript]